Dancer Archive
Thread: Pro/Anti AFK/Bot/Macro All Purpose Sticky
"CLIFF" NOTES FOR THIS STICKY:
- If what I am doing is not against the EULA, you have no right to tell me how to play the game.
- Even if it were against it, this is a game, so you still don't have the right to tell me how to play.
- I provide a vaulabe service and I am not haming anyone.
- If you aren't happy with how the game works, then it is your fault and you need to change how you play or don't play, I should not have to change how I play.
- Entertainer is the most boring profession and it should not be in the game, and people who play entertianers are not the kind of people I like to be around.
- I have limited time and I cannot play this if I had to actually be at the keyboard to do it (and see # 5).
- Even if there is a problem, which I doubt there is, the Developers should not spend time on professions other than the ones I play to fix it.
- Entertainers do not have a right to even charge so why should they complain if they can't make money.
- Entertainers are clueless about the rest of the game because buffs are flat out needed to do anything, so they need to be always available.
- If anything changes about afk macros, so many people are going to quit that SOE will lose money.
- Buffs are necessary so buffbots are necessary.
- Not everyone can have a second account so it is unfair to remove buffbots.
Things people say when responding (these tend to be longer and more complicated):
- I have no right to order you, but I do have a right to express my opinion when what you are doing affects me. That's why we have forums.
- You signed a license to play, and you don't have the right to play at all let alone how you want. If you cheat, you lose you "right" to play.
- The value of a service in no way corresponds to the harm of it--just look at the tobacco industry. If you say that I am not harmed by how you play, prove it, then we can talk. Post after post outlines the harm, see Oqua's post in this thread or Warryrs for more information, a few pages up.
- If we're both thinkingour right to play how we want is more important than someone else's right, then how is any conflict between our imagined rights going to get resolved?
- You may not like entertainers but the developers and those who bought the game to play this role disagree. Please try to respect that and don't use stereotypes to make your argument.
- Then dont' play it when you can't be here. Others want to play too and if in game resources are too crowded, the game becomes harder for other people to play.
- The deveolpers are savy enough to realize they can't fix how entertainer works without affecting the rest of us. They put up a thread to ask how people would be impacted, so go post there some positive suggestions or clear descriptions of how you really think you'll adapt when they take out macros. What else can they do to make the play easier? What if they only take them out after the revamp when perhaps buffs are no longer perceived as "necessary"?
- No right to charge you say? Time is Money. Knowledge is valuable. So you pay to have the skills and the person's time to apply them. How much that is worth depends only on supply and demand, not the fixed material cost.
- Entertainers do not sign a contract to only play just entertainers, though many combat players have no clue about what its like to be an entertainer. But all this lack of perspective aside, saying buffs are necessary to some people some of the timedoes not logically lead to the conclusion some of youdraw, that therefore we need buff bots or we need buffs to be available all of the time, at any moment.
- Not sure, maybe SOE actually gain accounts from all those willing to go out and buy their own private buffer when the publicbots go away. Its not unsual for players to do that to support a crafter. And who knows how many bots are really not extra accounts but cross-server slaves?The loss of accounts cuts both ways.
- See line 10. Even if buffs are necessary, bots are not. CH used to seem necessary for tanking. When creatures were changed, so were the melee classes ability to withstand damage. If anything happens to the system to make buffs less available, then SOE will probably either make them easier to obtain or less necessary. Not just entertainer, but doc ones as well. If they don't, I'm sure we can get more petitions and posts to discuss why they didn't until they do.
- Not everyone can have the same advantages as those with multiple accounts. The game was designed so that people have the tools to network to find others to provide the skills they don't have in order to create a player economy side to this game separate from, but dependant on, the combat side. If one guild has an entertainer alt, but another doesn't, one has an advantage. If one has great crafters that outfit the entire team with only the best, then they have an advantage. That is how the game works. Unless you want to change the game so that everyone can only use the same equipment, players and skills going into a PVP matchup, the playing field itself will not be level. But to do that would destroy the crafting and yes servicesgame for the rest of us.
CONCLUSION:
Some people depend on buffs. Buff-bots providethose people with buffs but at the expense of making entertainer an inviting and fun role to play actively. This discussion stalls on these points over and over again as some doubt whether these statements are true. But regardless of whether you believe either statement, many people would like to move the discussion forward to discussing things that can be done to restorea sense of importance and value to those who play entertainers (excepting ID which is not affected by buffbots directly), withoutheavily impacting the game play of those who do depend on having buffs.
For further dicussion:
Pretend the person saying the arguments "on the other side" is someone you like and respect, and who you do not want to see quit the game.Post a letter to this person explaining how you might address their concerns about the use pro or con of using macros to completely automate the entertainer class.
Ok, been a long time since I really read a cliff notes on anything, but I hope that helps people new to the discussion get a grasp on the issues and encourages them to keep the discussion moving forward not in a repetive pattern.
Edited to remove the typo in the last word...all other typos will stay because I spent enough time on this already 
Message Edited by Padtai on 09-10-2004 11:57 AM
And editied to try to get the font all the same size.
Message Edited by Padtai on 09-10-2004 12:08 PM
DanceRulez wrote:
I couldn't pass this one up. Ok, so Kacey, let me get this straight on the one hand you say:
KaceyBronson wrote:
I get annoyed when people say buff bots ruin the game, they dont. or when some "dancer" says that buff bots steal buisness, they don't.
But at the same time you also say:
KaceyBronson wrote:
I dont like looking for entertainers in cantinas. It is a waste of my time.
Don't you see that you've just said that your business that could have gone to a live entertainer will instead go to a bot simply because it might be easier to find and you don't want to bother looking for a live entertainer? If the bot weren't available you would either have to find the live entertainer or do without. If you would choose to find the live entertainer over doing without in that circumstance, then you would have to admit that buffbots steal business. But wait then toward the end of your post you also said ...
I never said I didnt look in the cantinas
KaceyBronson wrote:
On a different note, the buff bots that stay out of the cantinas are upset about afk buff bots in cantinas as well. they are taking buisness from us as well
And what was meant here is you are saying buff bots are stealing business right in front of you. If I can sit in a cantina and pull customers away from buff bots by talking to people then so can you. Its easy. Its called being social. And afk buff bots in cantinas do it for free and since I choose to stay away from cantinas mainly for the XP lose to grinders I cant talk to those people. At master musician dancer 2/4/4/4 i was taking customers from a buff bot just today
So now you're telling us that buffbots are stealing business from other buffbots? And buffbot owners are upset about this?? So either you, yourself, don't even believe your first statement about buffbots not stealing business, or you're expecting us to believe that buffbots can only steal business from other buffbots, but not from live entertainers.
I always think it's kinda funny how it's usually the buffbot owners and users who keep insisting that bots aren't ruining the entertainer's game or taking the entertainer's business. Funny how it's only the live entertainers who keep making those kind of claims... Oh, and one more thing Kasey:
KaceyBronson wrote:
so bottom line put your customers needs and wants before yours and maybe then you will make money like we do
So since I insist on giving my character that personal touch when I deal with clients, I suppose that if I take your advice, all I need to do is, oh, quit my job, abandon my other hobbies, blow off my social life, and stock up on caffeine tablets so that I can stay up for 23 hours straight everyday so that I can be sure to be there any time any potential customer needs me. That should certainly put the customer's needs sufficiently above my own that I can start making some bot-style money, and that's certainly not unreasonable to ask.
Well if you arent on all the time then why do you care where people buff? you arent there do it so some has to I am sorry if you are upset it is me. And yes you read my post but you took what I said out of context.
Okand Dreamland if you are this upset over the game and it is ruined delete or cancel or whatever. Seriously if you got upset over someone stating their thoughts you need to find something else to do with your spare time. Do you realize you just got pissy over a game. Do you comprehend that? Its a game if the game you are trying to play doesnt satisfy you then move on to another game. Dont blame my buff bot that you are unhappy about
and here is a good point another dancer pointed out to me while in a cantina today...The only people complaining are dancers who arent online like other people. and the if the buff bots werent wanted then we wouldnt have one let alone many on every server doing so well with a constant flow of people.
KaceyBronson wrote:
and here is a good point another dancer pointed out to me while in a cantina today...The only people complaining are dancers who arent online like other people.
Tralmek wrote:
KaceyBronson wrote:
and here is a good point another dancer pointed out to me while in a cantina today...The only people complaining are dancers who arent online like other people.
Saving the counterpoints to your thoughts about buffbots for another time, maybe you could explain this a bit? How am I not online like other people...? I'm confused.
If I am online and you arent.....
Isendel wrote:
You have not disproven any thing yet Dreamland.. In fact you keep danceing around the points I make about why mind buffs are esential in pvp and the scaracaty of entertainers that there has ALWAYS been in general. Kacey has valad points... Why should the deves come in and ruin his and many others game experence because you are unhappy? That does not sound fair to me.
My experience is ruined now. noone needs to come in to ruin it because it already is. You have yet to acknowledge the fact that both drygo and i have pointed out that without long term buffbots everyone is on the same footing to find entertainer buffs. And dont bother saying but they can have an alt account and i can't. Thats noones problem butyours, if you want to be self suficcient go get a new job, make some more money and get an alt account.
It isnot healthy to pvp to have completely unrestricted access to hugely powerful buffs. This is a FACT, it is what led to the degeneration of pvp into what it is, yes i have pvp'ed and yes i have many pvp friends, and the ones that havegotten past the "i want to be uber in my 95% armor" stage have all realised that huge buffs and armor are a detriment to pvp, oe that the combat revamp will adress.
Is that clear to you now this is the second time ive said it. so please do not waste my time with anotehr post on how i have yet to adress that buffs are needed for pvp.
Afk danceing and afk combat or looting are not even in the same boat, so stop tryign to dilute the argument here people. And yes.. If I pay 15 dollars i have as much right to enjoy EACH of those acounts as you do your one... Money talks...So stop calling people selfish for seeking to preserve thier game play...
They are in exactly the same boat, both are abominations to the game and destroy the immersiveness in the community. The devs agree, this is WHY they are doing something about it.
Again I ask.. Can we try for a middle fair ground here?
And again i say, no solution that alows long term unatended play of ANY profession is aceptable. Any "middle ground" that does not remove the ability to play unatended all day long is not a solution.
Oqua wrote:
I have pvp'ed alot..and pve as well extensively. I can atest to that
You don't NEED mind buffs.
As I stated before in my previous posts (and I believed I covered all your arguments and negated each one), what on earth did you do before buffs since they were no where to be found for the first quarter of the game? Back when the 'Pokemon' wars were around, everybody wanted CH for the protection it gave way back then.
People are working on a middle ground..or trying to.
I on the one hand believe you should get no middle ground. But thats me, and thank heavens for you I am not working on said compromise.
Now, you (and many others) have stated that you are Pro Bot...so your vote and your reasons why have been duly noted. If you have new arguments..then by all means state them, but quit saying the same thing over and over again and expect everyone to just roll over and agree.
Arguing to the point of making people want to vomit doesn't make anyone "side" with you..so lets just quit trying to bait someone personally mmmkay?
Sorry, but I just am tired of the same people coming and bickering. People are working on a solution. Lets just see whats going to happen.
Oh, and don't bring up the amount of money you spend on your accounts. I betcha I will win that one too. *wry smile* Only a fraction of mine and my husbands are listed on my sig.
/target Oqua
/wave
/hug
/blowkiss
Isendel wrote:
Afk danceing and afk combat or looting are not even in the same boat, so stop tryign to dilute the argument here people. And yes.. If I pay 15 dollars i have as much right to enjoy EACH of those acounts as you do your one... Money talks...So stop calling people selfish for seeking to preserve thier game play...
Again I ask.. Can we try for a middle fair ground here?
Why? Seriously dear, why do you want to find the middle ground? According to your logic, the middle ground won't work for your needs, and it will not work for those who say the same things you say, "Its my right to play however I choose, and my unattended character should have the same functionality as a live player."
And if you truly believe in that logic, then it makes no sense to argue that a live player should be able to do anything your character shouldn't be able to do. Because let's say we do find some middle ground. What is to say your buffbotting ilk will agree to a middle ground?
In other words, I do not know why we should take your desire to find a middle ground as valid, because we do not have any indication from you that live entertainment is important to save. Naturally you feel that buffbots are important to save. But what about the live game? Why is this an important thing to preserve?
Because that is what this is really about. We are trying to find a way for live players to enjoy doing the things we do. So rather than argue about dividing and rationing functionality, explain to us why preserving the live game is important to a buffbot owner?
Reachwind wrote:
Guys bigger text doesn't make your point more impressive it just gets ignored faster. Please for the sake of making things easier to read stop with the giant **edit**ing text.
Thanks
