Dancer Archive
Thread: New Inspirations on TC!
Jyde71 wrote:
Chessack wrote:
Just as an FYI...
I talked about this with our guild's Armorsmith, who is one of the best on our server, and he is happy with this change. His response about the complaints in terms of resource buffing was basically "Bah!"
So not all crafters are going to be upset aboutt the resource buff.
C
He might have other goals than me. If it makes him happy to make the exact same armor over and over (witch he prolly allready does since he is one of the best on your server) he will just have more resources he can use to do it with. no change for him really.
That's actually not true. I didn't say Yoss was the biggest AS on the server, I said he was one of the BEST... and that is because he takes great joy in doing custom orders for people. He is almost like a tailor, custom designing suits of armor to each person's specifications, rather than mass-producing it for his vendors. So he certainly doesn't make the exact same armor over and over. Your assumption is wild and unfounded.
No, just like Panthu, Yoss sees this as a potential way to infuse more competition into a stagnating economy. And because he is GOOD, not just high-volume, and knows he is good, he ain't afraid of increased competition. Nor should he be... he won't lose a single customer over this change, because he's Yoss, and people like him and his style of custom-designing stuff for them.
C
As all the crafted items will be almost identical, the competition will come in the form of price wars. While the buyers might love that, I don't necessarily see that as a good thing.
In such a scenario, the new crafters will have little chance against the longer term crafters who are generally wealthier. How is that a good thing?
I have a feeling that this is one of those cases where SOE implements the very worst possible option. To appease the outcry they then offer an 'option-lite'. 10% is far too great a boost.
Muzz wrote:
I don't mean to patronise you with the following examples C, I have read alot of your posts on various forums and agree with alot of what you say, but not about this issue. Think of a variant of the ADK where once you got an entertainer buff you could apply it and never have to visit a cantina again. That's what the ADK did for weapons and armour. Or if an entertainer wasn't capable of buffing/entertaining a CL54 or above player but an NPC could. That's the Katarn equivalent. WS has plenty of issues as do most crafting professions.
I completely, 100%, totally agree with you. I object to loot in general in this game. This game was not ever supposed to be about loot. They promised looted equipment would not ever be "as good as" what a crafter could make. Lies... all lies. There's now tons of loot, and much is better than the best a crafter can make. I hate it. I wish they would get rid of the damn ADKs. What a HORRIBLE idea. I know people who managed to buy or otherwise get one way or another enough to make full sets of armor ADKed, plus several weapons. I think it sucks that they did this, and I totally sympathize with you.
My point was that this is WORSE than what the "resource buff" would do to you. It just as easily, if not more so, makes your high end resources irrelevent. Who needs a blaster fist made with 70 CPU resources when you can go barehanded through a couple of Kash quests for a day and come out with the most uber TKA weapon in the game for free, and then ADK it? My point was that these things make your 70 CPU resource JUST as useless as a resource buff of a 3 CPU resource would.
I also think that 70 CPU is absurd as a price for ANY resource, and the economy could use some adjustment. The inflation we have seen over the last few years has been atrocious. Whenever such an adjustment is made, yes, the people who bought high and now have to sell low will be hurt -- but the consequences of leaving things like this, with absurdly inflated resource prices (leading to absurdly inflated everything else) are worse than the consequences of adjustment.
Now, whether resource buffing is the right way to deal with an out-of-control resource economy, I am willing to consider an open question. There are other ways (Panthu mentioned one -- resource container decay, meaning you can't horde/stockpile high-end things, which would also devalue them at least a bit). But something has got to be done to get the economy under control. So I'm not really going to weep over a deflation of prices at this point... for that reason.
I still think making it either-or, as in, you could EITHER get a resource quality buff OR the other buffs for your class, but not both, would be a reasonable compromise solution.
C
I agree 70cpu is an insane price for a resource. I have never paid 70cpu and never would. To be honest, I think that's a spurious point as I have not seen resources on Infinity sell for anything like this amount since the CU. The ultra-high cpu prices tended to be paid by pre-CU Docs in their efforts to sell the best buffs outside Coro SP.
I'm not going to get into the inflation debate, it's been done over a thousand times in the Business & Economy forum. Base weapons are still the same price they were 12 months or more ago and are of exponentially higher quality. But anyway, that's an entirely different debate.
I'm somewhat confused by the hoarding arguments too. I don't like to compare a game to RL situations but I feel it is valid with regard to this point. Any successful business holds stocks of the best it can for its products, why shouldn't players? The issue with hoarding seems to be more to do with SOE and their databases than with any real game concerns. Some players like to collect things ingame. I like collecting resources.
/equip tongue-in-cheek for next paragraph.....
If we're talking resource decay let's talk about similar things. Why don't pets age? Or houses decay and need Architect input periodically? Hell those Dancers surely must age, I don't want to watch the Bride of Wildenstein when there's an attractive nubile Twilek next to her withoutimplants that move in the opposite direction to her body. Ad infinitum.
The resource nerf is an effort to combat a database problem. It can be solved easily by increasing stack sizes to 500k. This isn't a large amount considering the amount of resources some items take to craft. And before anyone says that will just mean people will hoard 5 times more, tell me how? To do so they'd have to have 5 times the amount of harvesters. Hoarding could also be fought by making it so that a harvester owner must access the harvester, say once a month. This will make lot trades far more unattractive to maintain and also clear the landscape of the plethora of static farms.
if yoss doesnt care about making the same damn thing with the same stats forever and ever more power to him.
this change certainly wont hurt a lot of peoples pockets nor their business, vets will still rake in cash, and beat the competition like we always have through the other changes. there will be immense sales as everyone has to suddenly replace every item they thought was good but now is perfect.
the objection is to the zero possiblility for future improvement in goods produced. i will be making the same items with the same stats from this patch day forward period. that sucks. i cant repeat that enough and wish people would acknowledge the crafters objection.
Muzz wrote:
I'm somewhat confused by the hoarding arguments too. I don't like to compare a game to RL situations but I feel it is valid with regard to this point. Any successful business holds stocks of the best it can for its products, why shouldn't players? The issue with hoarding seems to be more to do with SOE and their databases than with any real game concerns. Some players like to collect things ingame. I like collecting resources.
I'll throw in some thoughts on this point because I was discussing the SWG economy vs. real world economy with a friend here at work earlier today.
The hoarding problem has to do with leading to monopolistic situations in the game economy. Those who had the earlier advantage to hoard the top quality resources and have an effectively infinite amount of the best resources ever to spawn on a server are the only ones who can make the best items in the economy. Because they can make the best, they get plenty of business. Because they get plenty of business, they make loads of money. Because they make/have loads of money, they can undercut the price of any other crafter on the server if they one day by luck happen to make a few items of comparable quality. In the meantime, because there are so very many resources available to to the ones who have hoarded, they can make enough items to supply the entire server, meaning that there is absolutely no need for items of lower quality, meaning that there is absolutely no market for crafters who do not have these resources. Thus the players with hoarded resources have a monopoly on the items they make on their server, and no other crafter can reasonably make an effort to compete.
In real life, we have measures to curb monopolies in many governments, so that the quality of living can be higher for more people. There is no such government in SWG that can determine or enforce what would be decided as fair curbing of monopolies to support whatever level of quality of life would be deemed appropriate.
However, whatever your arguments for or against curbing the free market, for or against the allowing of monopolies to run free, SOE is producing a game, and one of the goals of such a game is to make it fun for all players, all of the time (or as close to this goal as possible). Therefore, it is in SOE's best interest to somehow discourage the monopoly situation, because in that situation, the fun is being had by only a few (those who own the monopolies), and not by the many other players who might want to start playing to craft. The ideal would be a more competitive market where many more players could have fun at the same time.
The problem with comparing in-game hoarding to real life hoarding is the drastic difference in how easy it is for hoarding to lead to a monopoly. In real life there are so many other things to overcome, so it happens much less often. When it does happen, it's often curbed by a government of some kind. In SWG, it's very easy (it ought to be easier than real life, it's a game), such that it flows almost automatically from hoarding to top crafter. And when it does happen, there's nothing at all to stop it.
Tell me, do you know of any ingame crafter, on any server, who sells even 20% of server sales for one particular type of item? Monopolies are hardly running free.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a culture/economy where everyone has the same and makes the same (which is what this change will lead to) a communist/socialist society and nothing at all like a free-market?
Can you imagine the outcry if something similar was tried with combat professions.....
SOE: We're sorry, but all looted skill tapes that enhance your combat abilities are now being removed. From now on everyone will have the same skill enhancements.
I am pleased the Entertainer classes are getting some love, I have a combat ALT but my first love in this game, and the reason it stands out among MMOs, is it's player-driven crafting and economy. Turning this aspect of the game into the WoW 'everyonecan makethe same thing of the same quality' is a bad move.
It's clear the Devs want crafting to begeneric.Hold your breath andhope Entertaining isn't next.
Muzz wrote:Tell me, do you know of any ingame crafter, on any server, who sells even 20% of server sales for one particular type of item? Monopolies are hardly running free.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a culture/economy where everyone has the same and makes the same (which is what this change will lead to) a communist/socialist society and nothing at all like a free-market?
Can you imagine the outcry if something similar was tried with combat professions.....
SOE: We're sorry, but all looted skill tapes that enhance your combat abilities are now being removed. From now on everyone will have the same skill enhancements.
I am pleased the Entertainer classes are getting some love, I have a combat ALT but my first love in this game, and the reason it stands out among MMOs, is it's player-driven crafting and economy. Turning this aspect of the game into the WoW 'everyone can make the same thing of the same quality' is a bad move.
It's clear the Devs want crafting to be generic. Hold your breath and hope Entertaining isn't next.
To answer your first question, I don't have any evidence of it, but I can take a guess at a couple of people on a couple of servers. In the case where it's not just one person, you can replace the word monopoly with oligopoly and I think the arguments still stand.
To answer the rest of your post, I wasn't arguing for or against the inspiration changes, but just explaining my thoughts on resource hoarding, and arguments against it, and arguments against using real life to support resource hoarding.
Tekcasualty wrote:
I'd be super happy if you dancers could just /tap a nice word in for jedi... like could we get the same thing =D we have to craft sabers =(
I dunno... the fate of established jedi crafters is at risk!
1) Start with enough money that you can buy the best resources.
2) Play long enough and wait long enough that the best resources spawn and you can collect them when they do.
That's it. That's the list. There isn't any personal control over the item. Every Marauder Chestpiece that comes out that uses the same resources is exactly the same. The only variation in any of it is the color. As long as a Master AS made it it's the same, whether it was me who made it or some guy who just made master. Time That's the only thing seperating the quality of good Crafters to the quality of poor crafters.
So where's the challenge? Is the challenge really sitting and waiting for the best resource to spawn and then mining (or creature harvesting) like crazy to get said resource? That's a challenge? I'll give you it's patience, and patience is a virtue, but let's not act like it's an accomplishment worthy of going on our resumés, unless of course you don't have any better examples of being patient.
I really find the "It will reduce my fun because it reduces the challenge" Argument very silly, unless of course you have ADD and it IS an accomplishment to be patient.
What I think this does is make it easier for new crafters to make decent quality items. Let's be honest here the number of crafters is decreasing on all servers, and part (a HUGE part) of the reason is because it's very hard for a new Master Crafter to compete with a well established Crafter. If this helps attract new crafters to the game then I am all for it 100%. IF this change helps Dancers and Musicians become more than a sideshow in the game, then i am 100% for it.
The only way I could be even more for it is if it eliminated hawtpants from the game, and gave rangers the hat they so deserve.
Message Edited by linusboarder on 08-24-2005 10:54 PM
Circe' Pojia
Jyde71 wrote:You dont get it do you? When this hits I will be the best AS on my server...... along with 20 other AS since we will be making the exact same armor. Only difference will be color.
Those 20 all make basically the same armor anyways right now. Armor protection is done in a logarythmic scale right now. Meaning that the difference between 5500 armor and 6000 battle armor is within 3-4% (if even that high) of each other anyways. The only difference in 5800 Armor and the 6000 armor is the the numbers in the /examine box 5800 and 6000. The difference in battle will be a couple hit points, if that. Really you're making the same armor right now as the other 19 AS's, but it just doesn't feel like it because the numbers are different, even though the protection is basically the same.I mkae 5975 assault armor and won't even try to hit 6k, because there's no need, and no fun in doing so. The only nice thing about having 6k resists is that it sells better because people feel like it's linearly better than lower resists, when in fact it isn't.
Message Edited by linusboarder on 08-24-2005 11:24 PM