Dancer Archive

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Summerflame wrote:

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Red-Dwarf wrote:

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noSup4u wrote:

everything will be 100 percent capped.

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You sure?:

SW's have at least Mass and an effectiveness stat on everything (and most a LOT more to experiment on)

WS's have Damage, Speed, SAC on everything, and elemental damage on some.

BE's I lose count on how many things they experiment on (but they do have the most complicated crafting around)

AS's are the simplest and I accept will be most likely to reach caps, but as key resources are organic and therefore limited I still see a challenge present.

Architects have BER and storage, up til now you always had BER 10 and storage depended on if 12pt or not), now you could choose BER 10 and high storage or BER 11 and lower storage (as takes a point or two more to reach 100%)

Now sure we can cap one line easily, and get close on a second, but three capped lines? I'd like to see a screenshot of that.

Of course there are also the secondary lines which have been less important because people simply can't experiment on them but now could have spare points to spend on them (a nice new challenge for you).

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The problem is that there wont be room for improvement.

Sure I can make 4 variations of a gun 1 100% dam 1 100% speed 1 100%SAC 1 100% acc. But there wont be room for imporvement and that is the big issue here. I wont ever have to hunt a new spawn of reosurces to see my guns go from 95% to 96% cause with these new buffs I will be over the cap wit the resources I allready have.

This is not about credits in the end its not even about ahving an edge (though I also do beleive that it is unfair to 2 year vets), this is about being able to better yourself all the time.

That is why Damage caps are constantly debated and most WS want them gone, and that is why this change is really bad for the WS community (and probably other crafting proffs aswell, thoug I do not want to comment on those as I dont possess the knowledge to do so)

This is not about not wnating content for the Entertainers cause believe me I and a lot of other crafters are happy to see you guys get some attention. But hte resource buff should not be implemented.

Also the Experiemtation buff (that gives you higher chance of amazing successes should be more than enough to draw crafters (I know I wont craft without it)..

To sum it up more content to entertainers isa very good idea, but the resource buff needs to be reevalutated cause it is damaging to the gameplay of crafters (at least WS)

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What I highlighted in the above message is the biggest fault with this new system.

Seemsa lot of people think that the only reason people craft is to get rich and anyone who raises concerns gets knocked down as a selfish money grabbing hoarder who wants to keep all the best to himself.

Yeah plenty of players like that in any profession, but there is also a large core of people that love crafting and aspire to get better all the time and who love competing with other crafters. 100% experimenting on just about anything will take that away as everyone will be able to hit the same caps.

There will be no challenge anymore to being a WS if I know that the max damage on my weapons can never be improved, that I will never have to hunt down resources to make my components and weapons better - that I needn't go out surveying and spending time time browsing vendors or checking SWGcraft to see if I can improve what I currently have.

Sure its tough for someone new to go into any crafting profession but thats how it should be.

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DrElJefeMD wrote:
Now these new buffs come out, guess what. Those 30-70 cpu resources are now worthless because the 3 cpu resources will do just fine.

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You know this line really stood out to me.

30-70 cpu is a completely and totally ridiculous price for anyone to charge, or pay, for a resource. With a resonable harvester on a reasonable vein of resource, you can pretty reasily extract resources for 1/4 (or for FREE if you are a scout and it is creature resources you are talking about). I did a lot of resource gathering as an Arch for a while, and then a chef, with my alt CH(scout)/TKA character, for my main (the crafter/dancer, until I decided it wasn't fun enough to keep pursuing crafting). I can't recall ever having to spend more than 1/2 a credit to extract a resource, and that was only on a bad vein (low %) when I was too lazy to look for a better one. Usually (if you figure the cost out and the energy) it takes 1/3 or 1/4 of a credit to extract a unit. Even if you charged 2 CPU for such a resource you'd be making 600% profit. Charging 40 CPU would be making 12,000% (you read that right) profit. There is no call or reason for this.

The market has been absurdly over-inflated for a long, long time. If this makes resource prices come down to a reasonable level (and no, 30 CPU is NOT reasonable for ANY resource, IMO), and crafted items come down to a reasonable level, then I am all for it. Red Dwarf's testing shows that the individual stats are not capped, just the overall result, so a 1000/800/700 resource (for instance) would still benefit immensely from a resource buff, just as a 900/800/700 would.

A lot of the prices I see out there are, in a word, insane. I was thankful to be a TKA because if I had been a commando or something I'd have gone broke. I would never have even dreamed of charging for my stuff, anything like the prices most crafters charge for theirs. If this fixes the inflated economy, I would not mind.

I'm not clear on why crafters are flipping out over changes to resources, but they have no problem (apparently) with all the looted weapons and such that are better than anything they can make (e.g. Katarn Knucklers) and can be ADKed so one never needs to visit a merchant again. Why isn't THAT a problem, but suddenly this buff system is? What good is your 70 CPU resource going to do you making a blaster fist when it can't compete with my Katarns, eh?

C

Over all of this crafting bickering is a main issue that you guys are overlooking.

Unless what you craft only has one line of experimentation, do you not already cap the first line and move on to the next?

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noSup4u wrote:

Architects have BER and storage, up til now you always had BER 10 and storage depended on if 12pt or not), now you could choose BER 10 and high storage or BER 11 and lower storage (as takes a point or two more to reach 100%)

ber will always be maxed to 100 percent, personally i would never buy a 10 once i can get an 11. same leftovers for everyone go into the other line. random rolls will change the leftover but it will all be crafted the same.

This is a good thing, this means that any architect with uber resources can hit the 11, giving more money and business to the elite architects. I fail to see how this kills the established architects.

Now sure we can cap one line easily, and get close on a second, but three capped lines? I'd like to see a screenshot of that.

not what im saying. always the same 100 percent capped line, then the same percentage fill leftover on the second. resources wont matter because its max will be 100 percent as well, and the same leftover points (assuming 12 pts) will always go into them. an amazing roll would change it a little but thats how its getting dumbed down.

How do you experiment it now? Always the same 91% capped line, then the same percentage fill leftover on the second. With the testing done on the AS layers, this means that your product is only better!

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Panthu wrote:

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Summerflame wrote:

This is not about credits in the end its not even about ahving an edge (though I also do beleive that it is unfair to 2 year vets), this is about being able to better yourself all the time.

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Like I said in Lilo's thread, I think this is a worthy goal. I just can't understand how you guys aren't seeing the long line here.

You keep mentioning Crafter Day, has it not dawned on any of you that you stopped nothing? You can't stop design goals. If it's something the Devs want to happen, it will. Shuttle port timers were a great example of this I think. Yes, people freaked out in the forums and stopped the initial attempt to change them - did it end up happening anyway? Uh, yeah.

Dancers have been through this recently - we lost, just flat out lost when we tried to stop changes they were set on for us - they are trying to meet our play goals other ways now though. I'm guessing a fame system and maybe some other enhancements are going to be coming down the line for us if we really use our new content.

Devs work better and harder for open-minded players - they tend to just "handle" the others. You get way more goodies if you're in the first group. I know you guys don't know me from Jack, but I swear I have your fun in mind too when I say this.

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i cant even tell if youre discussing the same concepts as we are. you keep going on about abstract examples of dancing nerfs past and the best way to talk to devs and what our motivations are and saying itll happen anyway whether our secret covert agenda succeeds or not but you arent actually responding to any of these concrete explanations of the impact this will have.

conceptually fine, theres some good discussion, but the issue is making all crafted items a commodity, with the same results. i dont see how this is a good thing, and i dont hear it being addressed other than hush its inevitable you just want more money or thats not true you dont know how it works. thats not good discussion.

and to the poster above yes we are aware of how things are playing out on tc, this isnt just made up. the only numbers in this thread show how easy it will be to get 100 percent experimentation on bars. that leads to everything being a commodity. and what about just how boring and dumb its going to be? theres no tweaking different resources to alter different outcomes anymore. listen to some tunes, bang out the 100 percent item, fill up the bar and done. maybe if theres more than one bar dump the rest then done. ill never get a new resource again and see what i can craft differently.

i cant wait to make the same exact identical items over and overfor the rest of the time i spend as a crafter in this game.

that sucks.

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Eerif wrote:

Over all of this crafting bickering is a main issue that you guys are overlooking.

Unless what you craft only has one line of experimentation, do you not already cap the first line and move on to the next?

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noSup4u wrote:

Architects have BER and storage, up til now you always had BER 10 and storage depended on if 12pt or not), now you could choose BER 10 and high storage or BER 11 and lower storage (as takes a point or two more to reach 100%)

ber will always be maxed to 100 percent, personally i would never buy a 10 once i can get an 11. same leftovers for everyone go into the other line. random rolls will change the leftover but it will all be crafted the same.

This is a good thing, this means that any architect with uber resources can hit the 11, giving more money and business to the elite architects. I fail to see how this kills the established architects.

sure everyone makes better goods. in fact everyone makes such better goods... everyone makes BEST goods. there ceases to be a better anymore. never said it killed anyones business. in fact it will boom initially as we all rush to replace all the non perfect garbage we use now.

Now sure we can cap one line easily, and get close on a second, but three capped lines? I'd like to see a screenshot of that.

not what im saying. always the same 100 percent capped line, then the same percentage fill leftover on the second. resources wont matter because its max will be 100 percent as well, and the same leftover points (assuming 12 pts) will always go into them. an amazing roll would change it a little but thats how its getting dumbed down.

How do you experiment it now? Always the same 91% capped line, then the same percentage fill leftover on the second. With the testing done on the AS layers, this means that your product is only better!

yes but tomorrow i can try a different resource and hit 92 percent changing where i spend all my points and making for an actual interesting crafting experience. we all know this change makes the products better, its just after this thats it. everythings a commodity.

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I have been a chef for two years straight, I have hoarded hundreds of millions of resources myself, and I only see this change as making our items better. The only people who lose out, are those with one line of experimentation, meaning BE Tissues and probably some armorsmith (I don't really know how their experimentation goes). Everything else, is exactly the same as you did it before.

Lets compare the processes.

Currently::

I experiment my bespin port to full nutrition, using 7 points, hitting 87%, or +24due to resources, I then put the remaining 6 in filling, reducing it to 19.

With the Buff:

I experiment my bespin port to full nutrition, using 8 points, hitting 96%, or +25due to resources, I then put the remaining 5 in filling, reducing it to 20.

Your process is not changing, sorry to say it, but most of the time, you already follow a cookie cutter experimentation process for most items, because that is how you know to make them the best. Why would I experiment on my bespin port on say duration, to bring it up to 10mins, when I know that the duration does not matter at all?

Unless you're a BE, unless you have one line of experimentation, this is a bloody good thing. And if you have one line of experimentation, chances are you already have the resources and experimentation points to cap that line anyway.

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the difference is post patch when you max that one line then move to the next it will have the exact same result as every other crafter on the server because you will all have 100 percent as the maximum potential value for both of those lines. regardless of inputs the output will be the same.

nobody is debating the fact that the goods will be better. thats sort of a duh. people can still craft. if making swg crafting just like wow's is a good thing then i cant argue with that. most crafters that enjoy the professions for its complexity and challenge dont think its so great making it this thoughtless whether their goods are better or not.

Message Edited by noSup4u on 08-24-2005 02:20 PM

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noSup4u wrote:

i cant even tell if youre discussing the same concepts as we are.

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I just think the buffs are broken up wrong. They shouldn't have been organized by proffesion, but by buff type. You shouldn't get all four crafting bonuses, but just one of the four. That would let you choose which one would best fit what type of crafting you are doing (grinding, schematics for factories, hand crafting, etc). Doing it this way will be a "want" and not a "need" in crafting. As it is, I can't imagine not crafting with any of those. If it's done by buff type instead of profession there will be a little strategy involved in picking your buffs (Do I want to improve my resources, or just cut down on the chance of critically failing while experimenting? etc). That would be more viable, and I would always get my buffs.

Of course the resource buff needs to be balanced with the rest (around 2%) or everybody would just choose that one.

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Esharra wrote:

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Eerif wrote:

Unless you're a BE, unless you have one line of experimentation, this is a bloody good thing. And if you have one line of experimentation, chances are you already have the resources and experimentation points to cap that line anyway.

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As a master BE since 8/03 all I can say is that this might just compel me to play that char a bit more again (I got pretty burned out for a while). BEs don't have the advantages of skill tapes and I seem to experience many more assembly and experimentation failures when playing my BE in comparison to when playing my Architect. Now the Melee/Ranged Def tissues which I made last week with the best ever on the server resources (darn that using a resource deed for the milk ) will actually hit max. Am I worried because others will be able to do it too? Since when have I been afraid of a little competition?

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Heres the problem. You'll be able to hit cap with your resources. I'll be able to pick up BE, go find some grind quality resources and hit cap also. All BE crafting will become is take 1 of this item, take 1 of this item and make a capped tissue. Thats it, from now until the end of the game, everyone makes the exact same capped item.

The same thing. Over and over again. Where is the fun in that?

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Heorot wrote:

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Esharra wrote:

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Eerif wrote:

Unless you're a BE, unless you have one line of experimentation, this is a bloody good thing. And if you have one line of experimentation, chances are you already have the resources and experimentation points to cap that line anyway.

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As a master BE since 8/03 all I can say is that this might just compel me to play that char a bit more again (I got pretty burned out for a while). BEs don't have the advantages of skill tapes and I seem to experience many more assembly and experimentation failures when playing my BE in comparison to when playing my Architect. Now the Melee/Ranged Def tissues which I made last week with the best ever on the server resources (darn that using a resource deed for the milk ) will actually hit max. Am I worried because others will be able to do it too? Since when have I been afraid of a little competition?

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Heres the problem. You'll be able to hit cap with your resources. I'll be able to pick up BE, go find some grind quality resources and hit cap also. All BE crafting will become is take 1 of this item, take 1 of this item and make a capped tissue. Thats it, from now until the end of the game, everyone makes the exact same capped item.

The same thing. Over and over again. Where is the fun in that?

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A lot of the fun for me is in selling the items, negotiating prices with tailors and chefs. The great thing will be seeing others do well in crafting too. /shrug I've been fortunate, I started playing at launch. Both my crafters were started very early in the game. I've been able to amass an amazing collection of best ever resources. I've seen far too many very good players leave crafting profs and the game behind because they couldn't compete with the old skoolers. And a very few extraordinary players who did well in spite of the drawbacks of not being around since early on..simply because they were friendly and talented in ways other than those controlled by game mechanics. I think I'd like to see those extraordinary players be able to not just do well but be able to compete with the monopolies. But then..like I said..I'm not afraid of competition.

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Esharra wrote:

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Heorot wrote:

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Esharra wrote:

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Eerif wrote:

Unless you're a BE, unless you have one line of experimentation, this is a bloody good thing. And if you have one line of experimentation, chances are you already have the resources and experimentation points to cap that line anyway.

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As a master BE since 8/03 all I can say is that this might just compel me to play that char a bit more again (I got pretty burned out for a while). BEs don't have the advantages of skill tapes and I seem to experience many more assembly and experimentation failures when playing my BE in comparison to when playing my Architect. Now the Melee/Ranged Def tissues which I made last week with the best ever on the server resources (darn that using a resource deed for the milk ) will actually hit max. Am I worried because others will be able to do it too? Since when have I been afraid of a little competition?

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Heres the problem. You'll be able to hit cap with your resources. I'll be able to pick up BE, go find some grind quality resources and hit cap also. All BE crafting will become is take 1 of this item, take 1 of this item and make a capped tissue. Thats it, from now until the end of the game, everyone makes the exact same capped item.

The same thing. Over and over again. Where is the fun in that?

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A lot of the fun for me is in selling the items, negotiating prices with tailors and chefs. The great thing will be seeing others do well in crafting too. /shrug I've been fortunate, I started playing at launch. Both my crafters were started very early in the game. I've been able to amass an amazing collection of best ever resources. I've seen far too many very good players leave crafting profs and the game behind because they couldn't compete with the old skoolers. And a very few extraordinary players who did well in spite of the drawbacks of not being around since early on..simply because they were friendly and talented in ways other than those controlled by game mechanics. I think I'd like to see those extraordinary players be able to not just do well but be able to compete with the monopolies. But then..like I said..I'm not afraid of competition.

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Its not that I personally have any stake in BE, I'm not even a BE. However, SOE is taking a really beautiful and great crafting system and basically tossing out the window.

PreCU for instance Armor was an art. Sure everyone figured out how to hit 90%, but there was some amazing low HAM stuff being made. Every day people posted showing what they had made, all my friends who were armorsmiths loved the crafting sytem, it challenged them.

SOE took that and tossed it out the window.

Now, BE, WS and Architects are going down the same path. Chef is saved solely by having 4 lines to experiment in, though honestly only 2 are worth anything.

But, its painful that SOE is taking a once great system for crafting and tossing it out the window.

Why? So that new players can feel they can compete right away as everyone is making the same stuff.

Its WoW crafting.

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Chessack wrote:

I'm not clear on why crafters are flipping out over changes to resources, but they have no problem (apparently) with all the looted weapons and such that are better than anything they can make (e.g. Katarn Knucklers) and can be ADKed so one never needs to visit a merchant again. Why isn't THAT a problem, but suddenly this buff system is? What good is your 70 CPU resource going to do you making a blaster fist when it can't compete with my Katarns, eh?

C

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The things you mention here have always been a huge concern for WS since the CU hit live. We STILL cannot craft a CL54 unarmed weapon. The looted weapons and ADKs are a major concern.

I don't mean to patronise you with the following examples C, I have read alot of your posts on various forums and agree with alot of what you say, but not about this issue. Think of a variant of the ADK where once you got an entertainer buff you could apply it and never have to visit a cantina again. That's what the ADK did for weapons and armour. Or if an entertainer wasn't capable of buffing/entertaining a CL54 or above player but an NPC could. That's the Katarn equivalent. WS has plenty of issues as do most crafting professions.

From what I have reada large majority of crafters seem to be against this proposed change, most of the people in favour aren't crafters, but maybe that's because of the tired old 'money-grabbing crafters' cliche that gets rattled out with tedious regularity. Believe it or notcredits arenot the primary concern.

Message Edited by Muzz on 08-24-2005 10:32 PM

Message Edited by YuriaTayde on 08-24-2005 04:43 PM