Dancer Archive
Thread: Pro/Anti AFK/Bot/Macro All Purpose Sticky
Dreamland
Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:58 am
#131
Acutaly heres a comparison that shouldn't offend anyone. If i concede the idea that mind buffs ar a necesity (which is still not true) lets look at it from another perspective, Geonosian loot is necessary to make scythe blades and Dxr6 rifles. This has led to the geonosian bunker being basicaly camped to be looted constantly rendering it completely useless for a group that wants to go there and complete the dungeon with any kind of challenge.
Has this been a good thing? Sure people have access to factory runs of scythe blades and dxr6 rifles, but at the cost of making a piece of game content totaly non imersive and boring for everyone else that would like to do it. Its another case of abuse of game mechanics overiding imersiveness and fun for other people. Hopefuly this is something a combat orented person can understand.
Isendel
Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:54 am
#132
Dyrgo it is you who cant have an open mind here. You insist that the only solution here is no afk at all, instead of trying to find a middle groud, you gravatate tword an extreeme.
I did not violate any rulse with my posts. I made valad statements and when countered by your claims that its possible to successfully pvp with out min dbuffs, I basicly said "prove it", The resoning behand this, is as a seasend pvper I know that your 100% wrong on that issue. You made threats, I offered you a chance to test your "theory", See the difference?
As far as my post above being insulting, Im sorry for you if you took it that way... They are suggestions to the cxommunity for posible ways to increse buisness. I dont know what if any thing any of you are doing wrong, but I do know that when im live I do not have trouble getting customers and can easily clear 500k in a busy night on prime time... Im sorry, but for a dancer, i think thats good money.
How do i do it? I position my self in fromt of the cantina, advertise that i am buffing and i am live. I chat with the customers, AFTER i fill a group with all thos spaming "can i have a buff..ect.. I try to buff at least 4-5 at a time. THEN and only thin do i start with the chit chat. I attend to their needs frist, and my socialization second. This equals happy customers, and lots of repeat buisness.
Dyrgo I find your attack on me wrong headed. I have offered ideas and possible solutions for a middle ground here... IE saleries and bonuses to ATK entertainers, and all you can do is take an extreem view and collectively insult every one who ones, or patrons a buff bot. You have more or less siad they are bad people. Im sorry you cant make it work Drygo, but that is no reason for you to be uncivel when asked why you cant get it to work. We need a middle ground on this issue, not extreems in either direction....
Lest look at why buffbots came in to being in the first place.... It was do to a lack of live entertainers..... Why was there a lack of live entertainers? I think a cmbination of low pay and really low amounts of immersive content. Where are the dance offs and the contests in game? Why are there no npc interactions with our entertainers? Perform for jabba, tour shows that actually pay, more dances, fixes for our broken ones, more songs? More content.....
To revisit the mind buff issue.. I have multaple accounts and my own Musician/Dancer.. I dont leave it as a buff bot, when hes on Im live.. BUT.. That means me and my group will ALLWAYS be fully buffed in pvp.. What are those that dont have second accounts supposed to do to pvp? Therei s just too often not a live entertainer avalable.. Lets not kid our selves here... Back in the day before buff bots it was even hard to find an entertainer for basic healing, the only thing that changed that was the holo grind, which i thik we can all agree was a terrible idea for this game.. The socialzation seemed to evaporate in a matter of a week after that started...
Lets try to find a middle ground on this please.
Reachwind
Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:43 am
#134
Isendel wrote:
ARG... and why cant i edit...
You can't edit on that account because it was created in september and it only has 66 posts.
Oqua
Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:54 am
#135
*sigh*
Seeing all this junk makes me wish we had never gotten buffs in the first place. 
I have been staying away from the boards because of this, it makes my tummy hurt to read all the arguing back and forth.
From what I am reading, the "for" buff bot people are saying it will impede their gameplay...that seems to be the main crux of their argument yes?
Don't you people see the way you are wishing to play is negating a whole CLASS of characters in this game? Don't you see that YOU are the ones impeding many people's gameplay as well?
I would be more sympathetic to you...I really would...for I am trying to look at it from everyone's viewpoint. But it seems to me that ya'll are getting fussy about something that wasn't in the game for the first five or six months. Yes? I mean, PvP didn't come to a complete standstill then...did it? I think it was more active at times in fact then it is now.
I mean, think back please.
Why were buffs given to dancers/musicians in the first place?
Does anyone remember?
I do.
It was to give us a viable foothold in the mechanics of the game...to make us "useful" so we weren't just eyecandy or cyber dolls (as many view us).
So why is it that we are having so much problems with this?
Does anyone know?
Seems to me the reason we are having so much trouble with this is twofold: 1) People have abused the macro system (set in place for the good of the game) for their own personal needs and 2) said people, in abusing the system, have gotten the populous used to having what they want, when they want.
Those two things are killing a class....a whole class.
What amazes me is that you guys are even up in arms about buffbots being taken away...especially using the argument that it inconveniences your game play, and that you pay fifteendollars a month so you are allowed to do what you want, when you want. Okies...where is my jedi then? Where is all my oobah loot? Why should I have to go through theme parks to get schematics or things? You can twist that argument over and over again for every aspect of the game, yet it won't fly....yet its expected to be okay here?
I pay much more then fifteen dollars a month. I have multiple accounts. Want to know why I have them? Because I am a loner for the most part in game. I have my friends, but I am not in a guild. Normally its just myself and my husband. What I don't use my alts for is setting up little buffbots during my off time. I could do that if I wanted to, but I don't. Why don't I? Let's see...because it cheapens what others are in the game, and I wouldn't dream of doing that to another person just to get my fifteen dollars worth.
Again...I am trying my best to be sympathetic and understanding; trying my best to see it from your point of view.
Logically speaking though, your arguments as to the "why" they are needed don't hold water. Hmmm...unless I missed something?
Ah yes, I didn't address the argument saying "you need buffs for pvp...if they aren't readily made available then some will have and some won't, and thats not fair. Its giving the haves an advantage over the have nots". This game isn't about giving you everything that everyone else has. I know I don't have one of those spiffy little sports cars from the corvette thingy. Okies devs, I pay fifteen dollars...where is mine? I don't have the skill tapes or credits to compete with some guilded Armorsmiths on the server. Okies devs..hand them over...I want it to be on an even playing field.
*deep sigh* Do you see how ridiculous that all sounds?
I don't care if you have your own personal bot..for you or your friends. I don't give a frog's fatass whether you log it on and off to do your personal thing. What I do take offense at is those who park it in a venue for everyone else to partake in. Sorry, but that doesn't just have an impact on you then.
What on earth did you all people do before buffs? I know there were plenty of live entertainers then playing and having fun. Did you just sit in a corner waiting for the game to get easy and not hunt...or waiting to be given things?
I can't even imagine having this argument in another game like EQ. I want constant access to buffs and rezzes....I want constant access to c3....where is my cleric bot and chanter bot please? I pay my money each month, I should be able to get what I want when I want.
Bottom line is this...if the devs allow buffbots to be around like they are now, then I expect npc bots to be around for my buffing needs regarding doc buffs. I expect to be allowed easy access to all the content I would need groups for (i.e. a guild or whatnot). I expect easy access to credits, cause I know a heck of alot of people have more then me. I expect really good skill tapes to become common place. If you all can't be expected to wait or work on buffs, then why should anyone else have to wait or work for anything in this game?
Sheeta
Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:36 am
#136
Regardless of whether you like buff bots or not, as long as people are playing within the rules and guidelines set up by SOE, nobody should complain. It is human nature to seek out more efficient ways of completing difficult tasks. Since dancing/music playing for points is one of these tasks, I can see why people do this. As a Master Dancer for quite some time, I approve of AFK and Macros in these professions and feel they should be left as-is.
Dreamland
Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:04 am
#137
KaceyBronson wrote:
Okand Dreamland if you are this upset over the game and it is ruined delete or cancel or whatever. Seriously if you got upset over someone stating their thoughts you need to find something else to do with your spare time. Do you realize you just got pissy over a game. Do you comprehend that? Its a game if the game you are trying to play doesnt satisfy you then move on to another game. Dont blame my buff bot that you are unhappy about
and here is a good point another dancer pointed out to me while in a cantina today...The only people complaining are dancers who arent online like other people. and the if the buff bots werent wanted then we wouldnt have one let alone many on every server doing so well with a constant flow of people.
Kaceywhy should i cancel because you and a few other selfish people feel that they have more right to play than i do. And what is making me angry is not the game but your acusatory and insulting atitude.
You are like a broken record, you have nothing new to say about how buffbots are good that hasn't already been disproven and instead of coming up with somehting all your trying to do is come up with insults to point out the many ways that were too lazy or too this or too that. Your fast becoming nothing but a troll.
I urge noone else in this thread to respond to any of your posts anymore asI wont be untill you can come up with something to say that isn't designed as an attack on live dancers.
Message Edited by Dreamland on 09-10-2004 09:12 AM
Nacoa
Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:08 am
#138
Sheeta wrote:Regardless of whether you like buff bots or not, as long as people are playing within the rules and guidelines set up by SOE, nobody should complain.
Gotta disagree with you there. The problem is the rules as they are make 2 elite professions unplayable by live players. The only way to fix the situation is to change those rules. The only way to change those rules is to complain.
FuschiaD
Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:13 am
#139
*gives Oqua a standing ovation*
Of everything that I have read in these threads, she and Warryyr give the best arguments against AFK play. I just could not agree with you more, Oqua. Thank GOD this will be going away soon.
Dreamland
Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:53 am
#141
Isendel wrote:
Dyrgo it is you who cant have an open mind here. You insist that the only solution here is no afk at all, instead of trying to find a middle groud, you gravatate tword an extreeme.
I did not violate any rulse with my posts. I made valad statements and when countered by your claims that its possible to successfully pvp with out min dbuffs, I basicly said "prove it", The resoning behand this, is as a seasend pvper I know that your 100% wrong on that issue. You made threats, I offered you a chance to test your "theory", See the difference?
As far as my post above being insulting, Im sorry for you if you took it that way... They are suggestions to the cxommunity for posible ways to increse buisness. I dont know what if any thing any of you are doing wrong, but I do know that when im live I do not have trouble getting customers and can easily clear 500k in a busy night on prime time... Im sorry, but for a dancer, i think thats good money.
When you continualy tell someone that he obviously doesn't know how what he's doing that sounds insulting, obviously it does to drygo and i agree with him.
How do i do it? I position my self in fromt of the cantina, advertise that i am buffing and i am live. I chat with the customers, AFTER i fill a group with all thos spaming "can i have a buff..ect.. I try to buff at least 4-5 at a time. THEN and only thin do i start with the chit chat. I attend to their needs frist, and my socialization second. This equals happy customers, and lots of repeat buisness.
Thats fantastic that its working for you. But there are many dancers and musicians who it is not working for, and be assured that they have tried very hard to be just as active as you claim to be and have met with faliure. Not every server is the same. Your fast to champion your playstyle, but why should drygo have to position himself in the door and spam that he's buffing to compete with the buffbot? What about his right to play the way he wants. He pays his 15 bucks a month so why should HE have to spend all his time in the front of the cantina spamming to make money. If the combat player should be able to jump right in and start pvp anytime they want without "wasting any of thier time" looking for an entertainer, then i don't see why Drygo shouldn't be able to jump right in and start making money buffing immediately without having to waste his time looking for a cantina without a buffbot or doing things that offend people like spam advertising.
Dyrgo I find your attack on me wrong headed. I have offered ideas and possible solutions for a middle ground here... IE saleries and bonuses to ATK entertainers, and all you can do is take an extreem view and collectively insult every one who ones, or patrons a buff bot. You have more or less siad they are bad people. Im sorry you cant make it work Drygo, but that is no reason for you to be uncivel when asked why you cant get it to work. We need a middle ground on this issue, not extreems in either direction....
There are now three whole threads devoted to offering ideas to revamp buffs, and if im not mistaken i think drygo, as well as most of the other live dancers that post here have posted in at least once. All of your compromises revolve around still being able to put down a buffbot to macro afk for 23 hours a day, and were telling you thats not acceptable. If you look at the threads on buffing you'll see lots of great ideas that involve making things easier for the CUSTOMER, because any solution that still has an afk buffbot sitting in a cantina is not a solution.
Lest look at why buffbots came in to being in the first place.... It was do to a lack of live entertainers..... Why was there a lack of live entertainers? I think a cmbination of low pay and really low amounts of immersive content. Where are the dance offs and the contests in game? Why are there no npc interactions with our entertainers? Perform for jabba, tour shows that actually pay, more dances, fixes for our broken ones, more songs? More content.....
Why was there such a marked lack of entertainers? for several reasons. AFK play led to a lack of respect for entertainers, lack of tips, lack of any reward other than chatting with the other entertainers. They slowly dwindled off,I myself quit entertaining at this time because of htese very issues. When hologrindiong hit it was absolute anarchy and no live entertainer would even waste thier time in a cantina. Hologrinding is gone... Afk play will be gone... these are the two major factor leading to a lack of entertainers, with both factors gone conditions are in place for live entertainers to flourish once again. And as long as the ability to 100% afk the profession remains it WILL be abused.
To revisit the mind buff issue.. I have multaple accounts and my own Musician/Dancer.. I dont leave it as a buff bot, when hes on Im live.. BUT.. That means me and my group will ALLWAYS be fully buffed in pvp.. What are those that dont have second accounts supposed to do to pvp? Therei s just too often not a live entertainer avalable.. Lets not kid our selves here... Back in the day before buff bots it was even hard to find an entertainer for basic healing, the only thing that changed that was the holo grind, which i thik we can all agree was a terrible idea for this game.. The socialzation seemed to evaporate in a matter of a week after that started...
Ok so your live when your on to buff your guild, how is the ability to not go afk for 23 hours straight going to affect your ability to buff your guild if your LIVE when hes on?? Those without second accounts will always suffer a disadvantage, theres nothing that can be done, its as oqua said in her post above. It's never going to be 100% even ground for everyone in pvp, nor should it, the ammount of TIME you put into it directly effects your ability in it, and you see this is why buffbots are wrong, because noone is putting their TIME into it they are just letting the macro do the work. If someone has an armorsmith alt, they still have to play atk to make armor for themselves and its a very time consuming process, like wise if they want a weaponsmith and smuggler alt, its all their time invested to make themselves a better pvp'er. You have two options by this, Make friends, or get alt acounts like the antisocial. This game is NEVER going to be a game where you can just jump in and go blast away for half an hour and dominate everyone else, thats a FPS mentality. This is an RPG its designed to take time.
PoetDancer
Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:36 am
#142
Correct. I do appreciate the attempt by you owners of unattended buffbots to reserve some feature for live entertainers. But what will you say to the other buffbot owners who say, "I have a right to do everything this class is capable of doing in the manner I choose?" Indeed, if what we do is not working for you, why don't you argue for unrestricted buffbot use and promulgation? Or even argue that the entertainment professions should be eliminated and their functions given over to doctors or chefs?
I have heard a lot of arguments from buffbot owners on why buffbots are worth saving. I have yet to see an argument from them as to why it is important for this game to promote live play.
Sure, you give us solutions as to what you are willing to give up. But then again, why do you want to give them up at all? To appease us? Why is it important to appease us? In fact, why is it important to enhance the live game at all? Give me a paragraph as to why you think attending tothe needs of live entertainers makes the game better.
Drygo
Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:58 am
#143
Isendel wrote:
Dyrgo it is you who cant have an open mind here. You insist that the only solution here is no afk at all, instead of trying to find a middle groud, you gravatate tword an extreeme.
True that I gravitate heavily to the no afk ever camp. I think afk ruins most all games. However, it's not true that I insist this is the only solution. I have offered many solutions in the past. And, I think that the solution which you offered, making atk buffs better in some fashion, is one that I agreed with you in an earlier post. It's not the best solution, but it is a compromise that I could live with if we were significantly better. Not 5%, but something like 50% or greater.
I did not violate any rulse with my posts. I made valad statements and when countered by your claims that its possible to successfully pvp with out min dbuffs, I basicly said "prove it", The resoning behand this, is as a seasend pvper I know that your 100% wrong on that issue. You made threats, I offered you a chance to test your "theory", See the difference?
Ok. Let's disregard the "threat" issue. It's just dumb and takes away from what we're supposed to be talking about. At any rate, the point I was trying to make wasn't that somebody without a mindbuff can beat someone with a mindbuff, even though it does happen occasionally. You're right that someone with a mindbuff has a distinct advantage. However, my argument has been that in a world without buffbots, everybody is on an equal playing field in trying to get buffs. The way to make it so that you have greater access to mind buffs is not to create buffbots, it's to make contacts, add people to your friends' list, heavily recruit entertainers into your guild, etc. And, when one guild gets raided and they don't have mind buffs, the question should be, how can I get a mind buff? Games evolve to meet the needs of players. As usual, the playerbase decided to take the easy way out and create buffbots. However, a more enlightened playerbase would come up with the solution of finding, recruiting, and inviting real live entertainers into their circle of friends or guild instead of destroying professions.
I'm in a guild with a lot of entertainers, I'm also active on the Kettemoor /ent chat. 95% of the time, if I want a mind buff, I have one. Why? Because I have contacts. Anyone can do it. It's just that people choose not to. People seem to have no problems destroying professions and gameplay for their own convenience. We all have to find resources in this game. If I want armor, I gotta find an armorsmith and I have to wait on them to make me my armor. Anything I want, with the exception of mind buffs, I have to wait for in some fashion, I have to work for it, I have to make contacts. Yet, people think it's perfectly fine to not do that for mind buffs. I don't understand why. Many of the heavily combat oriented PvP guilds actively chose to disrespect entertainers instead of recruiting them. That's why they can't find a mind buff. I was recruited bya PvP guild. I actually have two close friends in that guild. There was a high probability that I would have joined that guild. But, I didn't. And the reason why? Because there were buffbots in that player city Cantina and I refuse to be disrespected in the fashion in my own player city.
As far as my post above being insulting, Im sorry for you if you took it that way... They are suggestions to the cxommunity for posible ways to increse buisness. I dont know what if any thing any of you are doing wrong, but I do know that when im live I do not have trouble getting customers and can easily clear 500k in a busy night on prime time... Im sorry, but for a dancer, i think thats good money.
That is good money. But, my point still stands. You can't say that just because you and a select few others have been this lucky to have this experience, that it works for everyone.
How do i do it? I position my self in fromt of the cantina, advertise that i am buffing and i am live. I chat with the customers, AFTER i fill a group with all thos spaming "can i have a buff..ect.. I try to buff at least 4-5 at a time. THEN and only thin do i start with the chit chat. I attend to their needs frist, and my socialization second. This equals happy customers, and lots of repeat buisness.
So, I guess dancing in the middle of the Cantina with my Master Dancer title up, advertising approximately every 5 to 10 minutes doesn't work since I refuse to spam. Also, I don't have both master dancer/musician which puts me at a distinct disadvantage to the buffbot. However, I'm glad what you do works for you. Oh, and just so you're aware, the needs of my customers always come before my needs when it comes to buffing. It's immediate, it's quick, it's efficient, and it only involves talking if they want it to involve talking. But, people prefer buffbots because they're available 23/7, have dual musician/dancer, and are free. Of course, why would anyone choose me over that? I agree with them. That buffbot provides WAY better service than I ever could. And, it's precisely for that reason that the vast majority of live entertainers are suffering immeasurably, even though you don't personally have that experience.
Dyrgo I find your attack on me wrong headed. I have offered ideas and possible solutions for a middle ground here... IE saleries and bonuses to ATK entertainers, and all you can do is take an extreem view and collectively insult every one who ones, or patrons a buff bot. You have more or less siad they are bad people. Im sorry you cant make it work Drygo, but that is no reason for you to be uncivel when asked why you cant get it to work. We need a middle ground on this issue, not extreems in either direction....
As for buffbotters and people who use them. They're one of two types of people. They might be the type of person who simply doesn't understand how damaging this is. Those are the type of people I'm trying to reach. I even think you fall into that category because you're not even close to understanding how decimating this problem is for the majority of real entertainers. Then their is the other type, who do understand, but don't give a damn because they're too selfish. Yes, those are bad people.
Lest look at why buffbots came in to being in the first place.... It was do to a lack of live entertainers..... Why was there a lack of live entertainers? I think a cmbination of low pay and really low amounts of immersive content. Where are the dance offs and the contests in game? Why are there no npc interactions with our entertainers? Perform for jabba, tour shows that actually pay, more dances, fixes for our broken ones, more songs? More content.....
While I'd be pleased with more content, that is not the reason for lack of entertainers. I think most entertainers who left entertaining because of afk and buffbots. I have no proof of that of course, just experience and conversations with others and the fact that I, myself, left for that very reason, only to come back when it was announced that the recursive macro was leaving. I have never once had a conversation with someone who said they weren't dancing anymore due to lack of content. I'm sure there are some out there, but I don't know them.
To revisit the mind buff issue.. I have multaple accounts and my own Musician/Dancer.. I dont leave it as a buff bot, when hes on Im live.. BUT.. That means me and my group will ALLWAYS be fully buffed in pvp.. What are those that dont have second accounts supposed to do to pvp? Therei s just too often not a live entertainer avalable.. Lets not kid our selves here... Back in the day before buff bots it was even hard to find an entertainer for basic healing, the only thing that changed that was the holo grind, which i thik we can all agree was a terrible idea for this game.. The socialzation seemed to evaporate in a matter of a week after that started...
I definitely disagree that it was *ever* difficult to find basic healing. Buffs? Yes, I agree with you there. And, I think that if you were to read some of my other posts, I'm very strongly in the camp of trying to make mind buffs more available for people, so long as they're not at the expense of the live player. As to what people without second accounts are supposed to do? Read above where I emphasize that it's important to make contacts for mind buffs, just like for everything else you need in the game.
Lets try to find a middle ground on this please.
I agree with you about making ATK buffs better than AFK buffs. But, then, won't the ATK buffs become the "necessity?" Will you still have the same argument that the ATK buffsare necessary and we must then make the AFK buffs equal to the ATK buffs because those without the ATK buffs would have too much of an disadvantage in PvP?
If you want the advantages, you have to play the game in a manner that puts you at an advantage. But, it's important to do so without destroying the gameplay of others.
Message Edited by Drygo on 09-10-2004 11:16 AM