Creature Handler Archive

Message Edited by spreadsheet on 12-29-2004 11:31 AM

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Ithilkir wrote:
Actually, as a master BE/CH I'm against redeeding pets, as master we have what.. 20 datapad slots? That's more than enough, by redeeding pets we in effect have unlimited number of pets. We don't need 50 pets, 20 is enough, I know I only use a half dozen at most and the rest are more for fun. Count how many of your pets you actually use, bet it's not all 20 of them so how can we justify getting to keep more pets?

(edit: Actually, the only way I would agree with redeeding pets would be if they could no longer be called, they became a statue which could not be turned into a pet so you could show off your GPS, Screecher or whatever)

Message Edited by Ithilkir on 12-17-2004 04:25 AM

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Spoken like a true BE. Face it, your CH is only so you can sell trained pets without having to deal with a real CH. 20 slots is not, and never has been, enough. When the other combat classes are limited to only 20 weapons of any type and 20 pieces of armor, then you can talk about it, but until then, it's a bullsh!t argument. You only want/need 20 slots? Fine. Only use 20. I for one, like having a managerie of all sorts of creatures.

Ah, you're psychic I see?

Then clearly you know that I only recently took up BE after getting master CH (which was a skill I wanted from the day I started playing). You also will know that I rarely train pets I create, I have a friend that isn't master CH and I refer my pet customers to him so he can get the experience. Ah, the wonders of psychic ability, you must be the life of the party eh?

Maybe I just feel spoilt for stable slots from being a tamer in Ultima Online, where at Grandmaster (basically a MCH) I had a massive 5 stable slots for pets and had to make a lot of difficult choices over what to keep (and we up until recently we didn't even have pet lifes, once one died, it died permanently).

If you find yourself with 20+ slots used (and currently looking at my datapad I have 20 used due to no need to clear out any space right now) then ask yourself why you have 20 pets? If 15 of them are 'rare' pets that you only bring out to show people that they're 'l337 r4r3z' then why keep them 'alive' ? If you could turn pets into non redeedable statues for display then you could free up another 15 slots without needing more slots available to you.

So sure, moan to the devs that you 'need' more slots, they might give you an extra 5, then what happens when you fill it up again? Moan more I guess...

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Ok as the original poster, I am not asking for more slots, hell they can cut it down to 5 active slots for all I care, IF they lets us deed and store our pets someplace othere than our datapad.

Think about it, they let you do it with ships, you can store weapons from anyother profession places other than your inventory, they made it so that droid deeds look like the droid so they can be used for display.

The rare pets we get are not uber leet or whatever, they actually suck compared to the time and effort required to find them, so who wants to lose one after spending 1 year of looking?



You are against the idea fine, but don't start insulting people because they don't share your view.
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*sigh* I give up, apparently I'm insulting people now... *rolls eyes*

Anyway, a structured counter argument follows, if you can't respond to the counter argument with a logical and thought out reply, then forget it, I'm not interested in it. If the best people can come out with is rubbish about me being not keeping pets, collecting rares or that I'm apparently insulting people, then grow up, plain and simply. You don't know the character, me or clearly have any concept about debating.

First of all, asking CH's if they would like to redeed pets is a bit like going into the pistoleer forum and asking if they'd like pistols to do more damage (as an example) of course 99.9% of people will agree and '/sign', but unless you can put down the advantages and disadvantages of the system (and in the case of the disadvantages how to solve them) then devs won't care how many people sign it because the logistics of the proposal haven't been properly thought out. You don't just say "I think we should get this", wait for people to sign it then expect the devs to do it, trust me, in 6+ years of MMOG gaming and being close to the dev team of more than one MMOG I know how it works.

Ok, secondly... Onto redeeding pets. Forget about comparing ship redeeds to pet redeeds, it's a totally different system. You can only have one ship in space at a time, three (I think) in dock in total, once you gain the next tier of ship the old ones are practically useless for you and due to the high resources required in creating them and thus the expense they should be able to be passed on to friends or sold. EVERYONE with JTL has access to ships, only those with CH have access to pets (cl=<10's not included). So simply because 'they can' doesn't give us the right to be able to. Unless of course, you want a system like ships, where you can have a maximum of three ships in your datapad and must goto a creature handler trainer (as an example) to redeed one and put another in the datapad and pets require a significant expenditure such as ships (say 5000 credits everytime you want to redeed one?) to bring it onto the same level as ship storage.

One thing everyone agrees is that CH's would like to keep past pets as a reminder in some way, I agree. So how do we do this? We cannot just let pets be redeeded and brought out whenever as it would just defeat the purpose of a storage limit for pets. Our 20 pets do not count towards our inventory, the riflemans 20 rifles do (and that's not including armour sets). Keep in mind our pets are a lot more versatile than a rifle, we can mount them, attack with them, poison with them, use them as 'armour' etc etc. The rifleman who wants to display his 'legendary' rifles will do just that, he'll display them, not use them, and thus if a CH wants to display his pets he either has to accept the 21 pet limit or we need to work out a method of displaying pets without them become unbalanced and a method of infinite storage.

So what can and can't we do?

We CAN'T have this as a method for near infinite pet storage.
-- There must be some way of preventing players from hoarding unlimited numbers of usable pets which would defeat the purpose of pet storage.

We CAN'T have this in a way that would be game breaking (insta calling pets from deeds rather than the datapad delay for example)
-- It must be thought out in such a way that would minimise changes to existing systems that could potentially cause game breaking bugs.

We CAN allow pets to be converted into re-usable with a lower pet storage limit and at a cost with the ability to deed and redeed at a static location (think spaceships).
-- This prevents players from instantly calling deeded pets and quickly deeding and redeeding pets after/before combat with no cost.

We CAN allow pets to be converted into non usable statues.
-- This prevents any issues with infinite pet storage and redeeding/deeding, it also allows players to keep a token of past pets without anything becoming game breaking.

We CAN allow pets to be converted into pets with no HAM and limited abilities that have a different storage.
-- This would allow the CH to still call out animated pets that could follow/stay and do tricks, but the pet would no longer be able to be used to attack (and thus no longer be attackable).

This is just for additional pet storage, a lot has to be thought out rather than "They can, I want to", what about selling pets, could a system be added that incorporates that, but doesn't allow players to use 9999999999999 prices or maxed out auctions on the bazaar as storage.

I'm against allowing us more than 21 usable pets, I'm not against us having no more than 21 ACTIVE usable pets.

There's a difference.

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Ithilkir wrote:
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*sigh* I give up, apparently I'm insulting people now... *rolls eyes*

"So sure, moan to the devs that you 'need' more slots, they might give you an extra 5, then what happens when you fill it up again? Moan more I guess..." -- If that does not imply we are whineing in this post I don't know what does.

"If 15 of them are 'rare' pets that you only bring out to show people that they're 'l337 r4r3z' " I find leet speak is usally insulting.



First of all, asking CH's if they would like to redeed pets is a bit like going into the pistoleer forum and asking if they'd like pistols to do more damage (as an example) of course 99.9% of people will agree and '/sign', but unless you can put down the advantages and disadvantages of the system (and in the case of the disadvantages how to solve them) then devs won't care how many people sign it because the logistics of the proposal haven't been properly thought out. You don't just say "I think we should get this", wait for people to sign it then expect the devs to do it, trust me, in 6+ years of MMOG gaming and being close to the dev team of more than one MMOG I know how it works.

I don't see the parallel to the argument here, We are not asking for more damage, we are not asking for the ability to call higher level pets or even more pets, just the ability to reeded pets and place them in storage areas. Again a pistoleer can have 100 pistols if they like, but we are limited to 20 pets. The only disadvantage to this system is strain on the database.

Ok, secondly... Onto redeeding pets. Forget about comparing ship redeeds to pet redeeds, it's a totally different system. You can only have one ship in space at a time, And you can only call enough pets to reach level 70 with a max of 3 pets out at 1 time

three (I think) in dock in total, once you gain the next tier of ship the old ones are practically useless for you and due to the high resources required in creating them and thus the expense they should be able to be passed on to friends or sold. EVERYONE with JTL has access to ships, Only the ships they are qualified to fly, Privateer, Imp or Rebel

only those with CH have access to pets (cl=<10's not included). So simply because 'they can' doesn't give us the right to be able to. Unless of course, you want a system like ships, where you can have a maximum of three ships in your datapad and must goto a creature handler trainer (as an example) to redeed one and put another in the datapad and pets require a significant expenditure such as ships (say 5000 credits everytime you want to redeed one?) to bring it onto the same level as ship storage. There is no fee to redeed ships, I see no problem with going to a NPC to redeed pets.

One thing everyone agrees is that CH's would like to keep past pets as a reminder in some way, I agree. So how do we do this? We cannot just let pets be redeeded and brought out whenever as it would just defeat the purpose of a storage limit for pets. Our 20 pets do not count towards our inventory, the riflemans 20 rifles do (and that's not including armour sets). True but that does not stop them from getting a backpack or 5 storage droids with 10 items per droid, or a house or 5 houses to put them in. I am not asking for the ability to call pets instantly from inventory they can be called as babies and have to grow again and retrain they, you assume much.

Keep in mind our pets are a lot more versatile than a rifle, we can mount them, attack with them, poison with them, use them as 'armour' etc etc. The rifleman who wants to display his 'legendary' rifles will do just that, he'll display them, not use them, and thus if a CH wants to display his pets he either has to accept the 21 pet limit or we need to work out a method of displaying pets without them become unbalanced and a method of infinite storage.

So what can and can't we do?

We CAN'T have this as a method for near infinite pet storage.
-- There must be some way of preventing players from hoarding unlimited numbers of usable pets which would defeat the purpose of pet storage. Again deeded pets are not called instantly, you have to tame them the same as BE pets, and the storage is limited the same as anyother item

We CAN'T have this in a way that would be game breaking (insta calling pets from deeds rather than the datapad delay for example) See above, and you cannot insta call pets. You can't call pets while in combat, you can't call pets till 30 seconds after combat is done, and there is a 15 second delay in calling pets when not in towns or camps.

-- It must be thought out in such a way that would minimise changes to existing systems that could potentially cause game breaking bugs. Adding 1 line of code could potentially cause gamebreaking bugs, lets make some reasonable requirements. The implimation of code is not up to us it is up to the devs.

We CAN allow pets to be converted into re-usable with a lower pet storage limit and at a cost with the ability to deed and redeed at a static location (think spaceships).
-- This prevents players from instantly calling deeded pets and quickly deeding and redeeding pets after/before combat with no cost.

We CAN allow pets to be converted into non usable statues.
-- This prevents any issues with infinite pet storage and redeeding/deeding, it also allows players to keep a token of past pets without anything becoming game breaking. This is what I said in the first place "Precident has now been set.
With JTL we can redeed ships, that means the code exists.

So why can't we Redeed or Deed pets to gain more storage? Most of use have pets we never use just because they are cool.

I myself only used 4-5 of my pets, the rest were just for the coolness factor (and the lantern birds that made really cool wedding decorations).

Limit our data pad space to 10 and let us redeed(for BE) or Deed our pets and drop them in inventory or such."

We CAN allow pets to be converted into pets with no HAM and limited abilities that have a different storage.
-- This would allow the CH to still call out animated pets that could follow/stay and do tricks, but the pet would no longer be able to be used to attack (and thus no longer be attackable). Sounds to me like the entertainer pets suggested long ago

This is just for additional pet storage, a lot has to be thought out rather than "They can, I want to", what about selling pets, could a system be added that incorporates that, but doesn't allow players to use 9999999999999 prices or maxed out auctions on the bazaar as storage. Max storage : 5 houses per player at 150 items each (750), 100 items in bank, 50 items in droids, 60 items in inventory and 50 in backpack, I really don't know where you get the infinate number of pets from

I'm against allowing us more than 21 usable pets, I'm not against us having no more than 21 ACTIVE usable pets. See above in yellow
There's a difference.

Yes in what you are perceiveing the request is and what it really is

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Message Edited by taloncard on 12-30-2004 05:26 PM

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Ithilkir wrote:
Ah, you're psychic I see?

Then clearly you know that I only recently took up BE after getting master CH (which was a skill I wanted from the day I started playing). You also will know that I rarely train pets I create, I have a friend that isn't master CH and I refer my pet customers to him so he can get the experience. Ah, the wonders of psychic ability, you must be the life of the party eh?

I could care less whether you started out as a CH or a BE - the point is, you have pretty much shown your interests lie more with the BE than with the CH.

Maybe I just feel spoilt for stable slots from being a tamer in Ultima Online, where at Grandmaster (basically a MCH) I had a massive 5 stable slots for pets and had to make a lot of difficult choices over what to keep (and we up until recently we didn't even have pet lifes, once one died, it died permanently).

Sorry, I don't play, nor have I ever had any desire to play, UO. I really don't care how many creatures you can have there as I am playing SWG not UO.

If you find yourself with 20+ slots used (and currently looking at my datapad I have 20 used due to no need to clear out any space right now) then ask yourself why you have 20 pets? If 15 of them are 'rare' pets that you only bring out to show people that they're 'l337 r4r3z' then why keep them 'alive' ? If you could turn pets into non redeedable statues for display then you could free up another 15 slots without needing more slots available to you.

I have maybe one semi-rare pet and the rest are there for specific reasons. Most are groups that are good at absorbing certain types of damage. While others are there for their special attacks. None of my pets is a showpiece nor do I want to turn it into an animated statue.

So sure, moan to the devs that you 'need' more slots, they might give you an extra 5, then what happens when you fill it up again? Moan more I guess...

I'm not (and I'm pretty sure no one else here is) asking for more slots. By allowing me to re-deed my pets or store them in specialized holding areas, I am only asking to have as much flexibility as any other combat class. The "database strain" argument is beyond weak. How does a creature take any more space than a typical weapon? Weapons have nearly the same number of stats and when you consider the numerous variations to presentation and other factors, there shouldn't be much of any difference in how much space they take up in the database.

Hell, if anything, wild pets are far less of a strain on the database than the BE'd ones and regular weaponssince they all have the same stats instead of variable ones.

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taloncard wrote:

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Ithilkir wrote:
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*sigh* I give up, apparently I'm insulting people now... *rolls eyes*

"So sure, moan to the devs that you 'need' more slots, they might give you an extra 5, then what happens when you fill it up again? Moan more I guess..." -- If that does not imply we are whineing in this post I don't know what does.

"If 15 of them are 'rare' pets that you only bring out to show people that they're 'l337 r4r3z' " I find leet speak is usally insulting.



First of all, asking CH's if they would like to redeed pets is a bit like going into the pistoleer forum and asking if they'd like pistols to do more damage (as an example) of course 99.9% of people will agree and '/sign', but unless you can put down the advantages and disadvantages of the system (and in the case of the disadvantages how to solve them) then devs won't care how many people sign it because the logistics of the proposal haven't been properly thought out. You don't just say "I think we should get this", wait for people to sign it then expect the devs to do it, trust me, in 6+ years of MMOG gaming and being close to the dev team of more than one MMOG I know how it works.

I don't see the parallel to the argument here, We are not asking for more damage, we are not asking for the ability to call higher level pets or even more pets, just the ability to reeded pets and place them in storage areas. Again a pistoleer can have 100 pistols if they like, but we are limited to 20 pets. The only disadvantage to this system is strain on the database.

Ok, secondly... Onto redeeding pets. Forget about comparing ship redeeds to pet redeeds, it's a totally different system. You can only have one ship in space at a time, And you can only call enough pets to reach level 70 with a max of 3 pets out at 1 time

three (I think) in dock in total, once you gain the next tier of ship the old ones are practically useless for you and due to the high resources required in creating them and thus the expense they should be able to be passed on to friends or sold. EVERYONE with JTL has access to ships, Only the ships they are qualified to fly, Privateer, Imp or Rebel

only those with CH have access to pets (cl=<10's not included). So simply because 'they can' doesn't give us the right to be able to. Unless of course, you want a system like ships, where you can have a maximum of three ships in your datapad and must goto a creature handler trainer (as an example) to redeed one and put another in the datapad and pets require a significant expenditure such as ships (say 5000 credits everytime you want to redeed one?) to bring it onto the same level as ship storage. There is no fee to redeed ships, I see no problem with going to a NPC to redeed pets.

One thing everyone agrees is that CH's would like to keep past pets as a reminder in some way, I agree. So how do we do this? We cannot just let pets be redeeded and brought out whenever as it would just defeat the purpose of a storage limit for pets. Our 20 pets do not count towards our inventory, the riflemans 20 rifles do (and that's not including armour sets). True but that does not stop them from getting a backpack or 5 storage droids with 10 items per droid, or a house or 5 houses to put them in. I am not asking for the ability to call pets instantly from inventory they can be called as babies and have to grow again and retrain they, you assume much.

Keep in mind our pets are a lot more versatile than a rifle, we can mount them, attack with them, poison with them, use them as 'armour' etc etc. The rifleman who wants to display his 'legendary' rifles will do just that, he'll display them, not use them, and thus if a CH wants to display his pets he either has to accept the 21 pet limit or we need to work out a method of displaying pets without them become unbalanced and a method of infinite storage.

So what can and can't we do?

We CAN'T have this as a method for near infinite pet storage.
-- There must be some way of preventing players from hoarding unlimited numbers of usable pets which would defeat the purpose of pet storage. Again deeded pets are not called instantly, you have to tame them the same as BE pets, and the storage is limited the same as anyother item

We CAN'T have this in a way that would be game breaking (insta calling pets from deeds rather than the datapad delay for example) See above, and you cannot insta call pets. You can't call pets while in combat, you can't call pets till 30 seconds after combat is done, and there is a 15 second delay in calling pets when not in towns or camps.

-- It must be thought out in such a way that would minimise changes to existing systems that could potentially cause game breaking bugs. Adding 1 line of code could potentially cause gamebreaking bugs, lets make some reasonable requirements. The implimation of code is not up to us it is up to the devs.

We CAN allow pets to be converted into re-usable with a lower pet storage limit and at a cost with the ability to deed and redeed at a static location (think spaceships).
-- This prevents players from instantly calling deeded pets and quickly deeding and redeeding pets after/before combat with no cost.

We CAN allow pets to be converted into non usable statues.
-- This prevents any issues with infinite pet storage and redeeding/deeding, it also allows players to keep a token of past pets without anything becoming game breaking. This is what I said in the first place "Precident has now been set.
With JTL we can redeed ships, that means the code exists.

So why can't we Redeed or Deed pets to gain more storage? Most of use have pets we never use just because they are cool.

I myself only used 4-5 of my pets, the rest were just for the coolness factor (and the lantern birds that made really cool wedding decorations).

Limit our data pad space to 10 and let us redeed(for BE) or Deed our pets and drop them in inventory or such."

We CAN allow pets to be converted into pets with no HAM and limited abilities that have a different storage.
-- This would allow the CH to still call out animated pets that could follow/stay and do tricks, but the pet would no longer be able to be used to attack (and thus no longer be attackable). Sounds to me like the entertainer pets suggested long ago

This is just for additional pet storage, a lot has to be thought out rather than "They can, I want to", what about selling pets, could a system be added that incorporates that, but doesn't allow players to use 9999999999999 prices or maxed out auctions on the bazaar as storage. Max storage : 5 houses per player at 150 items each (750), 100 items in bank, 50 items in droids, 60 items in inventory and 50 in backpack, I really don't know where you get the infinate number of pets from

I'm against allowing us more than 21 usable pets, I'm not against us having no more than 21 ACTIVE usable pets. See above in yellow
There's a difference.

Yes in what you are perceiveing the request is and what it really is

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Message Edited by taloncard on 12-30-2004 05:26 PM

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Looks to me like someone never read the original post and just opened his mouth, it also looks to me like Checkmate on the debate. GJ

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slave138 wrote:

Not to keep beating a dead (or stupid) horse, but I have a few things I'd like to add...

Ok you said it with the feeling I truly wanted to, but I was trying to be nice. OFr some one requesting logical argument, points and counterpoints, it was "all too easy, perhaps he is not as smart as he thinks" -- to paraphrse vader

Not to keep beating a dead (or stupid) horse, but I have a few things I'd like to add...

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Ithilkir wrote:
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Ok, secondly... Onto redeeding pets. Forget about comparing ship redeeds to pet redeeds, it's a totally different system. You can only have one ship in space at a time, three (I think) in dock in total, once you gain the next tier of ship the old ones are practically useless for you and due to the high resources required in creating them and thus the expense they should be able to be passed on to friends or sold (You must be one of those people on the JTL board whining about how your X-level ship keeps getting nailed by Y-level ship. Any pilot worth his weight in p!ss can tell you that certain ships are good for certain things - they're kind of like creatures that way...). EVERYONE with JTL has access to ships, only those with CH have access to pets (cl=<10's not included) (Your own exclusion defeats your point completely - everyone in the game has access to pets - though they may be lower level - but only people with JTL have access to ships). So simply because 'they can' doesn't give us the right to be able to. Unless of course, you want a system like ships, where you can have a maximum of three ships in your datapad and must goto a creature handler trainer (as an example) to redeed one and put another in the datapad and pets require a significant expenditure such as ships (say 5000 credits everytime you want to redeed one?) to bring it onto the same level as ship storage (Ships cost nothing to re-deed or generate from deeds... do you even have JTL? Are you playing the same game as the rest of us?).

One thing everyone agrees is that CH's would like to keep past pets as a reminder in some way, I agree. So how do we do this? We cannot just let pets be redeeded and brought out whenever as it would just defeat the purpose of a storage limit for pets. Our 20 pets do not count towards our inventory, the riflemans 20 rifles do (and that's not including armour sets) (So? The rifleman's inventory can hold a lot more than 20 rifles and if he/she wants to use that legendary rifle for something, they can still pick it up and use it.). Keep in mind our pets are a lot more versatile than a rifle, we can mount them, attack with them, poison with them, use them as 'armour' etc etc (Rifles can be used to attack and poison and usually do more damage... oh yeah, and their specials actaully work right 99% of the time. Using our pets as armor only works if the MOB is actually attacking them instead of us. In effect, they give us armor that only works some of the time, attacks that barely do anything, specials that might work someday, and have a greatly limited amount of storage denying us the flexibility to switch between pets in order to maximize their usefulness). The rifleman who wants to display his 'legendary' rifles will do just that, he'll display them, not use them, and thus if a CH wants to display his pets he either has to accept the 21 pet limit or we need to work out a method of displaying pets without them become unbalanced and a method of infinite storage. (I'm sorry, but I don't see how re-deeding pets, whether they are for display or not, is unbalancing -- especially considering some of the suggestions made about having them revert to lvl 1 and having to be regrown. If that's not enough, make them lose all their training too. It would cut down on the database workload and make bringing the pet back into service that much slower. Admittedly, being able to re-deed pets would greatly increase our storage capabilities, but no more so than our ability to store other items and for every pet we re-deed --it's just one less spot for some other type of item.)

So what can and can't we do?

We CAN'T have this as a method for near infinite pet storage.
-- There must be some way of preventing players from hoarding unlimited numbers of usable pets which would defeat the purpose of pet storage. (Why? Should it really matter if I'm hoarding pets or guns or armor or whatever? What makes pets the exception to the rule?)

We CAN allow pets to be converted into re-usable with a lower pet storage limit and at a cost with the ability to deed and redeed at a static location (think spaceships) (Once again, ships don't cost anything to re-deed or call from a deed and pets shouldn't either).
-- This prevents players from instantly calling deeded pets and quickly deeding and redeeding pets after/before combat with no cost. (There should be no cost to re-deed a pet. When I can make more money an hour as a CHthan I do as a pilot, I might let you convince me this is a reasonable idea, but when I can re-deed and call my ships over and over without any charge while bringing in money hand-over-fist as a pilot, I can see absolutely no reason why I should be penalized further forbeing a CH. Haven't we been sh!t on enough for you yet?)

We CAN allow pets to be converted into non usable statues.
-- This prevents any issues with infinite pet storage and redeeding/deeding, it also allows players to keep a token of past pets without anything becoming game breaking. (How does it prevent storage issues? A pet deed and a pet statue still take up a spot in the database and a spot in our inventory. The only difference is that pet statues can't be used again.)

We CAN allow pets to be converted into pets with no HAM and limited abilities that have a different storage.
-- This would allow the CH to still call out animated pets that could follow/stay and do tricks, but the pet would no longer be able to be used to attack (and thus no longer be attackable). (Wow! Gee! Where can I sign up for this stinking pile of feces?!? Maybe it will sink in one of these days that many CHs don't tame pets to use as conversation pieces? Nah, probably not...)

This is just for additional pet storage, a lot has to be thought out rather than "They can, I want to", what about selling pets, could a system be added that incorporates that, but doesn't allow players to use 9999999999999 prices or maxed out auctions on the bazaar as storage. (Can we worry about this as soon as no one can do it with any other type of item? Why do you only advocate and apparently support limitations on CH but not on anyone else?)

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