Creature Handler Archive
Thread: Creature Handler ideas for Dancer-specific pets
sneaker696969
Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:51 am
#40
how about u fix CH only PETS then work ur way to the other profession that wants are pets
Alorse ALora
Alorse ALora
DarthMarksman
Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:54 am
#41
You're limiting yourself. Try to open your mind a bit and expand your horizons. What is wrong with training animals in another niche? Not every animal is suited for combat or to be a mount and could have other practical uses. Instead of being outright negative try to see the potential.
Butterwufabow wrote:
I really cant belive Im reading this. Vert, I love the effort your making, but excuse me as I go throw up. Let me get this straight, we are supposed to take our once feared combat hardend pets and turn them into circus animals? I know its not that extreme, but come on now! Isnt it bad enough as it is that we train a BE'd Bantha for BillyJoBobz-noobys' mount , just so he can run a lap around Mos Eisely before he gets bored with it and pulls out his swoop? This idea will have us chasing Gnorts, Durni, and Nunas so the guy playing Barbi Beanbags teh dancer can have a whole new way to "tumble" (if we used the Dance1/ Dance 2 idea) for aspiring FS grinders across the galaxies all the while completely AFK or even better, playing his Jedi main on his other computer. Tell me again where the CH benifits from this? Please, because I really dont see it.
"We've been looking for additional functionality and niches in which our pets can excel (perhaps even ways to expand them beyond combat)" Vert,what combat?!?! What do you think the last several months of kicking, screaming, whining, crying, cursing, suspending, banning, and cancellations have been all about!! Come on, you know as well as the rest of us that most CHs will agree that we are not a completely broken profession, we are at least handicapped, and Im sorry but no number of dancing Durni will fix that. At least the previious idea of another Trick command would have purpose and benifit to the CH in the field, as long as it did in fact heal for more then Trick 2. If we are going to continue to look for "functionality beyond combat" , lets make sure that it at least benifits the CH profession as a whole. Really, looking at the dancing concept, who benifits from that? The Dancer using the animal. Im pretty sure my Giant Veermok dancing in the streets ofTheed isnt going to do much for me as a non-entertainer. Instead of using our already scarce resources to impliment a command that will only benifit another profession all together, it should be put towards correcting some of the CHs more important and critical issues/fixes. We should be concentrating on fixing us as a profession before we go training monkeys to dance for people. This idea isnt completely without merit, but right now its sounds pretty one sided. Some may say this is no different then the Mount command, which I can understand that argument, except at once time we were able to actually make a business, as short lived as it was, in selling mounts and we can at least train a mount for ourselves as well. My Giant Veermok dancing on the corner isnt going to do anything form me, its just add to the lag. Love me, hate me, ban me, I can really care less, but look through the flame and try and see the point of what Im saying.
Tearvi Asai
Master Rifleman/Master Creature Handler
GoW of Bloodfin
Message Edited by Butterwufabow on 10-22-2004 05:56 PM
-Elder Medic-
Nell2ThaIzzay
Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:08 pm
#43
You can check out the other thread on this topic for my full, detailed arguement against this, but plain and simply put, this is a -bad- idea.
Droid Engineers already create entertainer droids that assist Entertainers. As a DE, I don't need another profession coming in and stealing away our market. As a CH, we don't have any place in the "services" market, because we are a combat class, not a mercantile class. And trying to be both makes this single profession completely too self sufficient, and is not a good thing.
I request that you please take other players and professions into consideration before you start trying to push for ideas that could hurt entire professions.
P9M
Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:06 pm
#44
DE make combat droids and have no skill expenditure in combat. Trying to follow your style of argument to make my point. CH do have a transfer command which directly implies trade and commerce. Where is DE's trade command?
jopenack
Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:06 pm
#45
we do take other players professions into consideration
and you should also
as an entertainer, musician on wanderhome I can attest to many entertainers already using pets. If you take the time to read this thread you shall see many ideas that do not tread on de grounds. de's basically deal in special effects for entertainers. this is not special effects this is possible enhancement and pet entertainment.
again entertainers are already using them it does no harm to give them more. Think about the entertainers who lack content and reason to be atk. from personal experience I can tell you it gets boring quickly this will add to a little social interaction.
spreadsheet
Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:26 pm
#46
Vert, put this on the dancer forum and received alot of positive responce. As I stated in the previous thread, no need to feel we are trying to compete with the d/e. Have a +1 pet module available for droids and an entertainer can have both the special effects from the droid and a tiny bonus from a dancing pet. They would work together....both providing different services. And like it or not C/H do provide services. Who trains all these B/E pets anyway?? How do you get a mount?? Please try to be constructive instead of a cog in the wheels of progress. Indeed, think of the other proffesions before you open your mouth and insert your foot.
Message Edited by spreadsheet on 03-23-2005 05:27 PM
Nell2ThaIzzay
Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:19 am
#47
spreadsheet wrote:
Vert, put this on the dancer forum and received alot of positive responce. As I stated in the previous thread, no need to feel we are trying to compete with the d/e. Have a +1 pet module available for droids and an entertainer can have both the special effects from the droid and a tiny bonus from a dancing pet. They would work together....both providing different services. And like it or not C/H do provide services. Who trains all these B/E pets anyway?? How do you get a mount?? Please try to be constructive instead of a cog in the wheels of progress. Indeed, think of the other proffesions before you open your mouth and insert your foot.
Message Edited by spreadsheet on 03-23-2005 05:27 PM
I'm not going to repeat everything that I have stated in the other thread. I got one arguement going on, I don't need another.
But it boils down to this. This game is built on interdependancy. We have the crafting professions that provide a product or service to the community. And we have the combat professions that use those goods and services. A weaponsmith spends skill points, and with those skill points he cancreate guns, but unless that player also spends skill points on Rifleman, that player cannot use the items he crafted. It also works in reverse, a Rifleman spends skill points to use the guns, but unless he spends more skill points on Weaponsmith, he cannot create his own guns.
Because of the situation at hand, I will also use the example of Droid Engineer. Because they (we, since I am one) create "pets", there is a uniqueness to that profession. However, Droid Engineers still spend skill points to create a product for the community. The product they create does not require certs, and anyone can use them, however, the product that we create will never "replace" another person's product, just assist it. I.E. the combat droids we can create, DZ70's, Blastromechs, LE Repairs, and most famous, the Probot. Anyone can use these "weapons" without any kind of certification. However, anyone who has used one of these combat droids will know that these droids will never replace a real weapon. They just aren't viable enough a weapon to be your sole combat. Therefore, players will still spend the skill points to earn the certs to use the weapons that the Weaponsmiths spend their skill points to create. The utility droids Droid Engineers create are also never, EVER, required for a specific profession to use (save BH's, who have certs for those), only used to assist and enhance a profession (I.E. Musicians and Dancers with entertainer module droids), so there is no need for certs there either. A Musician can still play his or her songs without the use of a droid.
Now back to us, the Creature Handlers. How does this all relate to us? Again, we use pets, so that puts us in a very unique situation. Our combat usefullness has been gimped because of it (we were too overpowered at one point, because people could use pets and weapons), and so now we are sitting here wondering what it is exactly our purpose is. But, whether we're gimped or not, our purpose is combat. The purpose of taming, and training pets is to use those pets for combat. We already are fairly self sufficient, in the aspect that we can essentially "craft" our own weapons, through the taming of our creatures. Pistoleers can't make their own Republic Blasters, however, Creature Handlers can produce their own Greater Sludge Panthers. It's not an exact comparrison of course, as crafters can make their weapons whenever, wherever, as long as they have the resources. Creature Handlers don't spend resources, but they have to rely on spawns of said babies, as well as tactics to avoid aggroing a baby and killing it, as well as the time invested in taming the creature and searching for it. But the end results are the same: We are the only combat profession that can produce our own weapons. So that's what we spend our skill points on, the taming and use of creatures for the intent of combat (and don't say combat isn't our role, because you knew when you took the profession it was. Look at all of the commands you can tame your creatures in: Special Attack, Ranged Attack, Embolden, Enrage, Formations, etc... so we can train a mount, that does not make us a commercial profession).
These proposed changes would mean that now Creature Handlers can go out and tame pets, train them to do profession specific services, and then sell those pets to said professions for whatever fee is deemed worthwhile. Now all of a sudden, you have added a completely new role to the profession, made us a mercantile / crafting AND combat class, who never has to rely on another profession because we can A.Produce our own weapons B. Use said weapons on missions to earn money and C. Create a product to sell to the community to make money, and all for the low low skill point cost of 1 profession, barely spending anything more than a pure mercantile profession who has to spend even more skill points if he wanted to do combat as well.
Do you not see how this would make us an unfairly self-sufficient profession? I'm not the "cog in the wheels of progress" as you put it. There is already a profession dedicated to producing these profession specific service pets, it's called "Droid Engineer". Go ahead and flame me, just because I happen to be a Droid Engineer, and tell me how biased I am and this and that... despite the fact that I'm just as much CH as I am DE (will be a master at both someday). The fact is, this community is asking to be able to do way too much with 1 profession, and it's not fair to the rest of the community who have to spend double the skill points to be able to do what a Creature Handler can for the price of one profession. It's just not right, and honestly, I'm baffled how you guys cannot see this, and I'm baffled that you would even propose such a thing.
Well I guess I did end up saying everything again...
Atlantiss
Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:39 am
#48
enigma_writer wrote:VertI think the first thing that could be done is the ability for ch to train a greater variety of tricks but the pet is still limited to just being trained 2 at a time but are changable.I think all creatures under lvl 70 need to become tamable so we will have a greater variety of cute and adorable pets to chose some for the dancers. I had a dancer offer me once 5 million credits if I could find a massive gnort that were once tamable. That just isn't right that such creatures are no longer tamable.I do think that the dancers should be required to become creature handlers and the degree of difficulty of pet they can have depends on how high they move up in the ch tree.Milteck (BEAST)Master CHRare Pet CollectorLeader of Galactic CH Guild_Radiant
Sorry Milteck, gotta disagree with those two points, my character on Infinity is a pure entertainer and does not have any free skill points to allocate to Creature Handler. While I agree that we should increase the range of tricks that can be taught limiting it to two taught tricks is poor so i'd increase the trained tricks to four tricks that they can be taught from an increased range of around ten. Adding something that would enhance my musical performaces on Infinity would be great and it'd be fun teaching the pets new tricks on Chimaera
jopenack
Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:20 am
#49
As stated prior to this I am a musician and would love using pets for entertainment more than I am capable now as non ch on wanderhome. I see people all the time dancing and performing with rasp's, butterflies, varius forms of cats, bunnies, and lower level critters. the entertainers use songs with command to have them do a trick at certain points. Its cool, people like it, its fun for them.
isn't it supposed to be fun for them, oh no sorry you cant have a rasp because it encroaches onto a droid engineers territory.. Are you people really listening to yourselves.
This is not a problem, giving an entertainer a pet that can be trained in additional skills with possibly an enhancement is a good thing
If you want to argue then argue about something worthwhile
Go argue how non ch can use lvl 35+ pets
Go argue over why the bugs that have plagued this game since launch are still here and more are growing daily.
Go argue about why people get banned over saying they dislike something due to nda agreements but if you say you like it, you are over looked and no banishment occurs.
Go argue about anything going on right now that is important than attacking an idea over and over and over again because you disagree. An ideaI might add that will probably never see the light of day.
Choose your battles a little more wisely and try helping the community for a change than rehashing this topic, we all know how you feel, since your opinions and mine have been posted several times here.
I for one shall not waste anymore time with debatingOPINIONS here, I want the people who haven't posted to look things over give idea's, thought's, and suggestions to make CH the best profession in the swg universe.I will not ram my opinions down anyones throat on this thread anymore.
Message Edited by jopenack on 03-24-2005 09:23 AM
velm
Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:07 am
#50
would it encroach on another persons prof? Hard to really say. We can heal our pets via pet stims, no docs needed there, is that encroaching on their turf? As it stands now, can we find a lvl 10 pet for someone that is NOT BE made? yes, is that encroaching on the BE turf?
I for one think many in the different fields would love the chance to have a pet with them. Take the ent that has a bird flying around them and they set up a macro so it can do things. That would be really nice. Would this crush the Ent droid market? doubt it.
Take a pet that can help a bounty hunter find something, would it crush the droids that DE's make for BH's? if done correctly, no. They could work off of each other.
Now, I respect the DE community, and I think it is in the same boat we are in. But, c'mon on guys, we could always work 'together.'
P9M
Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:31 pm
#51
Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:
>The utility droids Droid Engineers create are also never, EVER, required for a specific profession to use (save BH's, who have certs for those), only used to assist and enhance a profession (I.E. Musicians and Dancers with entertainer module droids), so there is no need for certs there either. A Musician can still play his or her songs without the use of a droid.
**No one is saying any pet NEED TO BE REQUIRED that we could offer. A Dancer could still dance without a pet. But yet some do have rasps or jax with them in the Cantinas.
We already are fairly self sufficient, in the aspect that we can essentially "craft" our own weapons, through the taming of our creatures. Pistoleers can't make their own Republic Blasters, however, Creature Handlers can produce their own Greater Sludge Panthers. It's not an exact comparrison of course, as crafters can make their weapons whenever, wherever, as long as they have the resources.
**Let me interupt you here. Nothing in the wild is better than anything crafted. So essentially a CH is no more than a pistoleer using a gimped pistol drop. That is the exact comparison. We still NEED BE's, and trust me as someone who refused to buy a BE pet after the nerf but was given some by a friend I know BE pets outlast ANY wild pet in combat.
Creature Handlers don't spend resources, but they have to rely on spawns of said babies, as well as tactics to avoid aggroing a baby and killing it, as well as the time invested in taming the creature and searching for it. But the end results are the same: We are the only combat profession that can produce our own weapons.
**Time is not an expenditure? Maybe you don't collect a paycheck on Friday. Time is so costly.
So that's what we spend our skill points on, the taming and use of creatures for the intent of combat (and don't say combat isn't our role, because you knew when you took the profession it was. Look at all of the commands you can tame your creatures in: Special Attack, Ranged Attack, Embolden, Enrage, Formations, etc... so we can train a mount, that does not make us a commercial profession).
**So basically there are nothing but untrained BE pets in the hands of non-CH? Those do get trained as they were meant to be trained...by a CH with the skills. Since you are a CH check your character sheet theres even a column for Training. We do provide a service. Any service is potentially commercial by definition.
These proposed changes would mean that now Creature Handlers can go out and tame pets, train them to do profession specific services, and then sell those pets to said professions for whatever fee is deemed worthwhile.
**Sounds much like now, we tame, we train and we sell pets for whatever we deem. This does not change CH any except we get more commands.
Now all of a sudden, you have added a completely new role to the profession, made us a mercantile / crafting AND combat class, who never has to rely on another profession because we can A.Produce our own weapons B. Use said weapons on missions to earn money and C. Create a product to sell to the community to make money, and all for the low low skill point cost of 1 profession, barely spending anything more than a pure mercantile profession who has to spend even more skill points if he wanted to do combat as well.
**Again we do rely on other professions. You act as if Wild pets are better than BE pets. There are costs there. We have secondary professions because we are so gimped. These secondaries are much like hte one you have to make it anywhere safely. No one, absolutley no CH has 2 trees of scout and MCH as their only profession. Get off your high horse man. We all use all our skill points and we are all VERY RELIANT on other professions.
Do you not see how this would make us an unfairly self-sufficient profession? I'm not the "cog in the wheels of progress" as you put it. There is already a profession dedicated to producing these profession specific service pets, it's called "Droid Engineer". Go ahead and flame me, just because I happen to be a Droid Engineer, and tell me how biased I am and this and that... despite the fact that I'm just as much CH as I am DE (will be a master at both someday). The fact is, this community is asking to be able to do way too much with 1 profession, and it's not fair to the rest of the community who have to spend double the skill points to be able to do what a Creature Handler can for the price of one profession. It's just not right, and honestly, I'm baffled how you guys cannot see this, and I'm baffled that you would even propose such a thing.
Well I guess I did end up saying everything again...
Nell2ThaIzzay
Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:54 pm
#52
Wow, I can't believe how badly you continue to misconstrue what I say...
P9M wrote:
Nell2ThaIzzay wrote:
>The utility droids Droid Engineers create are also never, EVER, required for a specific profession to use (save BH's, who have certs for those), only used to assist and enhance a profession (I.E. Musicians and Dancers with entertainer module droids), so there is no need for certs there either. A Musician can still play his or her songs without the use of a droid.
**No one is saying any pet NEED TO BE REQUIRED that we could offer. A Dancer could still dance without a pet. But yet some do have rasps or jax with them in the Cantinas.
And I never said anything about CH service pets needing certs. I'm just saying, you tend to think that because Droid Engineers (a -crafting- profession) provides a good, that somehow it is a backfire to my arguement that Creature Handlers shouldn't have a full scale commercial market, because of the fact that DE's can provide pets to anyone (including ourselves), and I'm trying to say, that unlike professions who's products do require certs (I.E. Weaponsmith) a droid will never have the "neccesity" that a weapon will, so saying we are overpowered because we can make items for anyone, but CH can't, is not only untrue, but has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
We already are fairly self sufficient, in the aspect that we can essentially "craft" our own weapons, through the taming of our creatures. Pistoleers can't make their own Republic Blasters, however, Creature Handlers can produce their own Greater Sludge Panthers. It's not an exact comparrison of course, as crafters can make their weapons whenever, wherever, as long as they have the resources.
**Let me interupt you here. Nothing in the wild is better than anything crafted. So essentially a CH is no more than a pistoleer using a gimped pistol drop. That is the exact comparison. We still NEED BE's, and trust me as someone who refused to buy a BE pet after the nerf but was given some by a friend I know BE pets outlast ANY wild pet in combat.
Okay, I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's the exact same thing. I've used both BE pets, and wild tamed pets, and to be quite honest, I haven't noticed -too- much of a difference between them as far as effectiveness. But then again, I don't use many BE pets, mostly wild tames, and I may have just been using the wrong ones. Overall tho, I've managed to do just fine in CH with just wild tames, as of to this point, there is only 1 BE pet in my datapad, and it's not even my best one, and actually never even has been.
Creature Handlers don't spend resources, but they have to rely on spawns of said babies, as well as tactics to avoid aggroing a baby and killing it, as well as the time invested in taming the creature and searching for it. But the end results are the same: We are the only combat profession that can produce our own weapons.
**Time is not an expenditure? Maybe you don't collect a paycheck on Friday. Time is so costly.
Again, you don't read what I say. Where did I say time wasn't an expenditure? I pointed out the differences in crafting and taming. Crafting requires resources, and the item can be produced at any time. Taming doesn't require resources, but can't just be done at anytime, you have to spend time in searching out the lair, and time and tactics in getting the baby to spawn, and making sure you successfully tame the baby. I even said in the passage you quoted that we use time in getting babies, perhaps you missed it:
"...as well as the time invested in taming the creature and searching for it"
So I'm beginning to think that you are so against my arguement that you won't even read it anymore, cuz this entire time you've done nothing but take what I said out of context and switch it around into some grotesque "Droid Engineers should be all powerful, but Creature Handlers should be gimped" advocation from me.
So that's what we spend our skill points on, the taming and use of creatures for the intent of combat (and don't say combat isn't our role, because you knew when you took the profession it was. Look at all of the commands you can tame your creatures in: Special Attack, Ranged Attack, Embolden, Enrage, Formations, etc... so we can train a mount, that does not make us a commercial profession).
**So basically there are nothing but untrained BE pets in the hands of non-CH? Those do get trained as they were meant to be trained...by a CH with the skills. Since you are a CH check your character sheet theres even a column for Training. We do provide a service. Any service is potentially commercial by definition.
Okay... being able to tame creatures is -our role- tho. And it was never a service until the CL10 for everyone change. So we provide a minor service in training those BE pets (which training pets -IS ONE OF OUR ROLES-). That doesn't make us a service profession.
These proposed changes would mean that now Creature Handlers can go out and tame pets, train them to do profession specific services, and then sell those pets to said professions for whatever fee is deemed worthwhile.
**Sounds much like now, we tame, we train and we sell pets for whatever we deem. This does not change CH any except we get more commands.
Except those new commands we get all of a sudden turn us into a mercantile profession, by being able to train our pets to perform profession specific services that we can then in turn market to the public, and make a profit off of it. Again, I bring up the Pistoleer comparison: Is a Pistoleer able to put special weapon attatchments into his gun to give entertainer bonuses to a dancer, and then turn around and market that new pistol to the community? No. Why? Because a Pistoleer's role is not a mercantile one, just as a Creature Handler's role is not a mercantile one. The Pistoleer being able to do that would give him too many profitable abilities for the skill points gained, and it would not be fair to the rest of the community.
Now all of a sudden, you have added a completely new role to the profession, made us a mercantile / crafting AND combat class, who never has to rely on another profession because we can A.Produce our own weapons B. Use said weapons on missions to earn money and C. Create a product to sell to the community to make money, and all for the low low skill point cost of 1 profession, barely spending anything more than a pure mercantile profession who has to spend even more skill points if he wanted to do combat as well.
**Again we do rely on other professions. You act as if Wild pets are better than BE pets. There are costs there. We have secondary professions because we are so gimped. These secondaries are much like hte one you have to make it anywhere safely. No one, absolutley no CH has 2 trees of scout and MCH as their only profession. Get off your high horse man. We all use all our skill points and we are all VERY RELIANT on other professions.
Nobody has just 1 profession for their entire character, so again, this arguement just doesn't make any sense. People who are combat professions have other things: Either more combat professions, or other support professions, or even crafting professions. Players are given 250 skill points to use on their character. Nobody picks just 1 professions and leaves it at that. They are going to use up as much of those 250 skill points that they can. Nobody has just a "Master " as their only profession. Yet, what is being proposed here would make it so that Creature Handlers could essentially be successful as a person's only profession, because they can do it all, by fighting, crafting, and selling.
Do you not see how this would make us an unfairly self-sufficient profession? I'm not the "cog in the wheels of progress" as you put it. There is already a profession dedicated to producing these profession specific service pets, it's called "Droid Engineer". Go ahead and flame me, just because I happen to be a Droid Engineer, and tell me how biased I am and this and that... despite the fact that I'm just as much CH as I am DE (will be a master at both someday). The fact is, this community is asking to be able to do way too much with 1 profession, and it's not fair to the rest of the community who have to spend double the skill points to be able to do what a Creature Handler can for the price of one profession. It's just not right, and honestly, I'm baffled how you guys cannot see this, and I'm baffled that you would even propose such a thing.
Well I guess I did end up saying everything again...
I'm trying to listen to everything you're saying, and try to be open minded about this, but all I'm hearing is "we want to be able to do it all". Droid Engineers simply put shouldn't have to share their market with Creature Handlers. Droid Engineers spend their skill points to provide a service to players, and we have our service. Creature Handlers simply put don't have a place as a full scale mercantile profession. And just leave the entertainer example alone for awhile... because that won't be all. You think that will be added and left at that? No, once Creature Handlers get a taste of that, they will want more, and more, and more, until they have a full variety of goods to supply to people. And that's just not right.
Our correspondant says he wants to find uses for our pets outside of combat. But that's not right. Pistoleers don't have use for their weapons outside of combat, just to make their profession a little more unique.