Creature Handler Archive
Thread: Thunderhearts own words about the CH Nerf. (Also called The Great Lie)
PurpleWarrior
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:37 pm
#27
SkyPreacher1 wrote:
Mr. Dorkasauraus the Troll Jodo,
CH is not your main profession. You are a troll or you are the voice of the Devs. Either way, Leave.
/CHEER
ResourceMonkey
Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:03 pm
#28
With the danger of bein' flamed a troll - all I know is that before the nerf, it seemed that EVERYONE was walkin' around with a pet - after the nerf it stopped bein' Poke'mon and more like Star Wars.
P9M
Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:38 pm
#29
Digi,
I could not have stated it better if I tried. Wait a sec, I did try. The fanbois all seem to not be hearing us. I guess my reading comprehension must not be the one in question.
Dabblers are the problem? They do not us enough skill points to control two semi decent pets? Friggen put the extra pets at the top of the tiers.
If that is not clear enough then you are complacent with the destruction of CH. If you are so tunnel visioned that the dabblers are your only focus and the destruction of CH allows you to turn a blind eye, then you are a part of the problem. It is the lack of real clearity and abstract thinking that allows this Hitler-esqeu type behavior. Dabblers were the problem so we will place all CH in the gas chamber and get rid of them.
Master CH was not supposed to be harmed, yet it was. I guess for you and your hate towards dabblers there is no real distinction. You got your way. The profession is dead. I am so glad the Americans defeated Hitler or I am sure you would be saying he did a great job too.
I could not have stated it better if I tried. Wait a sec, I did try. The fanbois all seem to not be hearing us. I guess my reading comprehension must not be the one in question.
Dabblers are the problem? They do not us enough skill points to control two semi decent pets? Friggen put the extra pets at the top of the tiers.
If that is not clear enough then you are complacent with the destruction of CH. If you are so tunnel visioned that the dabblers are your only focus and the destruction of CH allows you to turn a blind eye, then you are a part of the problem. It is the lack of real clearity and abstract thinking that allows this Hitler-esqeu type behavior. Dabblers were the problem so we will place all CH in the gas chamber and get rid of them.
Master CH was not supposed to be harmed, yet it was. I guess for you and your hate towards dabblers there is no real distinction. You got your way. The profession is dead. I am so glad the Americans defeated Hitler or I am sure you would be saying he did a great job too.
P9M
Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:40 pm
#30
Sorry realized that I left parts of that vague. It is not directed at you digi.
It is for the complacent that allow this atrocity to continue with their support of inept Devs.
It is for the complacent that allow this atrocity to continue with their support of inept Devs.
Dodece
Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:34 pm
#31
Is ch an underpowered profession. Yes and no a pet can stand up to some things far longer then many other fighter classes. My GSP saved my butt from tusken observer a couple times yesterday. The problem is you have to realize that ch is a complimentary skill. It compliments another skill you might have. Nobody is a creature handler first and a master riflemen second. The problem right now is so many other professions in the game are retarded over powered and others are terribly underpowered. I think and can see why that if a pikemen can do 4000 points of damage to my pet. Then my pet should atleast be able to do 1000 point hits to him. Well no that is not logical the problem is with buffs super uber armor and overpowered fighter classes.
Its that obvious, and anyone from any number of professions will tell you some professions are extremely overpowered. The facts are though in the rebalance buffs will get hacked to ribbons. Armor is going to be cut down a huge notch. Players will no longer get insane speed mods. Your special attacks will be drawn from a pool. So when they say wait for the rebalance I take them seriously. All that put together will make a rancor a much harder kill. Sure you will take it down if you are a high combat, but while you mess with me or you mess with him. Chances are you will get beat up.
Did th lie not at all, and its taken woefully out of context. Everyone before that nerf just had to have a cowardly gurrek and what not. Chs were peddling them on the streets. With that pet I could I kid you not eat entire dungeons. I was a mbh and tracking that whatever into blueleaf dungeon was instant god mode. The pet would charge in i would have my finger on the stim. I would pull out my llc. He hit i stand back target one kliknik fire away continually heal the pet and reaquire a new target.
It was just sick I was a defacto ch, and for those that just one or two lined the profession. It was insane you had the tanking power of a tka. With less points then on one arm of marksman. It was so increadibly cheap. That everyone did it. Infact two lengths was so cheap that it was a no brainer. Two rows to be in pve god mode. 34 points is way too cheap for that.
Before that nerf which really nerfed the dabbler not the chs. Creature pets were out of hand as buffs and foods are now. You had to have one. Everytime you went into pvp everyone had a pet to sick on someone. I cannot tell you how many battles I fought where I ended up putting down five nasty pets haveing never even faced their masters.
Anyway after the bh skill point revamp before it actually. I decided to invest in some ch so I could go at higher creature game, and so far I have been wonderfully surprised and delighted. Add that pet on to my bh skills and magical things start to happen. I can now use my llc at proper ranges and not spam specials. I can get by for a time unbuffed because I take less damage, and my pets special can peal a aggro off of me. I can use my pet to kamikaze a dangerous opponent while I slip out the back door.
Like I said above the combat rebalance sounds like it will actually help the profession in pvp. You might not own a battle with just the pet, but if you combine it with another combat skill it should do pretty well in pvp after that, and without super buffs from god on the side of everyone a good pve template with creature tanks should get more respect.
Jediblues
Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:38 pm
#32
I understand the frustrations of my fellow creature handlers, but Ibelieve we will see change in the combat balance and GCW revamp. I don't beleive TH deliberately lied to us. or that he gets any particular joy from when he makes a mistake (we all make mistakes) or when something gets changed. The true people hurt by the nerf were the merchant creature handlers, as they could not sell pets to dabblers anywhere near as much. Yes, I would like to see us more involved in the GCW, and I have a few ideas for when the time is right to post them, when the patch cycle comes to us. Patience is what we need here, and a focus on staying positive.
P9M
Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:50 pm
#33
Oh yeah Jedi,
I was not hurt at all. MCH, Master Medic, Rifles in Marksman and Sniper in Rifle. Nope my power did not decrease at all.
/sarcasm off
The point is if dabbling is so damned wrong turn it to a class based game. Essentially it is what your saying. "If you are not master you are not Jack". Well I got news for the lot of you that agree with the Nerf. We are not Jack now. The worst part is, to be anything remotely like we were it is better to have to grotesque uber HAM CL10 non-CH pets and forget CH altogether. It is what SOE wants the proof is in the pudding. Anyone that claims masters will not be hurt then proceeds to Nerf our weapons is a liar. It cannot get much clearer.
If I sold you a car and told you it ran, only to find out it did not run, you would call me a liar. If I followed that up with I will fix it in a month or two and it took one year, YOU WOULD call me a liar. The facts are there. You either are being too nice or too tunnel visioned to see it.
Will the Combat Rebalance fix things? No. Because the same people are in charge that broke it to begin with. Nerf Wars has already replaced the fictional "Creature Wars".
You don't like dabbling go play something else. This is a skill based game. The only real answer to fixing a skill based game is to do away with titles and trees.
Having individual skills with tiers of 4.
CH.
Pistols.
Rifles.
Flamethrower.
LLC.
Drug making.
Food making.
Dancing.
Healing 1.
Healing 2.
Combat Medic.
Tracking.
Trapping.
Camping.
Entertaining.
Weapon Making.
Mining.
Armorer.
Droid making.
Just combine the 16 boxes into 4.
Allow people ten slots.
They can master 2.5 skill trees and there is no more argument. You don't like your skills, surrender them.
I was not hurt at all. MCH, Master Medic, Rifles in Marksman and Sniper in Rifle. Nope my power did not decrease at all.
/sarcasm off
The point is if dabbling is so damned wrong turn it to a class based game. Essentially it is what your saying. "If you are not master you are not Jack". Well I got news for the lot of you that agree with the Nerf. We are not Jack now. The worst part is, to be anything remotely like we were it is better to have to grotesque uber HAM CL10 non-CH pets and forget CH altogether. It is what SOE wants the proof is in the pudding. Anyone that claims masters will not be hurt then proceeds to Nerf our weapons is a liar. It cannot get much clearer.
If I sold you a car and told you it ran, only to find out it did not run, you would call me a liar. If I followed that up with I will fix it in a month or two and it took one year, YOU WOULD call me a liar. The facts are there. You either are being too nice or too tunnel visioned to see it.
Will the Combat Rebalance fix things? No. Because the same people are in charge that broke it to begin with. Nerf Wars has already replaced the fictional "Creature Wars".
You don't like dabbling go play something else. This is a skill based game. The only real answer to fixing a skill based game is to do away with titles and trees.
Having individual skills with tiers of 4.
CH.
Pistols.
Rifles.
Flamethrower.
LLC.
Drug making.
Food making.
Dancing.
Healing 1.
Healing 2.
Combat Medic.
Tracking.
Trapping.
Camping.
Entertaining.
Weapon Making.
Mining.
Armorer.
Droid making.
Just combine the 16 boxes into 4.
Allow people ten slots.
They can master 2.5 skill trees and there is no more argument. You don't like your skills, surrender them.
Kyreal
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:51 pm
#34
what a thread. i agree with pluto here for the most part. Dabblers cost CH its profession, we all know this and thats a fact. everyone had a rock beetle or cowardly gurreck by their side, because they were non-ch and 1 had nice ham and decent kinetic resist and the other had light armor and 2k ham.
lets take a look at the "old" non-ch pets -----
light armor and 2k ham for the rock beetle, the CG didnt have armor but had like 3k ham. put them into todays world, how long will they last? answer is about 15 seconds.
How long do natural pets last in the current pve world? a couple of minutes without heals??? and thats stretching it.
CH is a world of BE-made pets to have any kind of decent tanking ability, which imho is just wrong. i myself have resorted to having a pair of CL 35 BE gurrecks special made with light armor and 60 kinetic resists JUST so i would have some kind of tanking ability against mobs. my natural pets are showpieces nothing more 
/start rant
you know what is even worse about it all? the GD non-ch BE pets that are out there are FKING INSANE, 10k ham on a non-ch pet is LUDACRIS and its made CH a laughingstock profession. why have CH when you can control a CL 10 10k health pet that has 50 percent kinetic resists? Hell those beat any natural pet up to CL35 EASY.
/end rant
there was 2 changes in that publish that made sense.
1. the reshuffling of pet creature levels within all the boxes to stop the dabbling.
2. putting a limit on the calling of creatures to stop people from walking around with 3 high level pets out at the same time. (this was needed because no person should have access to multiple high damage,super tank creatures)
the fixes we need now in our current world are
1. BE'ed non-ch pets that have hams over 3k max need to be removed from the game completely. their resists should never exceed 15 percent of any kind.
2. our natural pets should have medium armor reinstated to our cl50 and above pets to give them the fighting power they need to survive in the game. light armor can start at cl30
3. they need to fix our bugs, the auto-storing, the pathing problems, etc.
BlindTyldak
Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:04 pm
#35
ResourceMonkey wrote:
With the danger of bein' flamed a troll - all I know is that before the nerf, it seemed that EVERYONE was walkin' around with a pet - after the nerf it stopped bein' Poke'mon and more like Star Wars.
You are 100% correct, and, as much as I love the CH profession and seeing TONS of people with animals, yeah, it was out of control. There's nothing trollish about stating the facts. It DID seem like everyone was walking around with a pet. And yes, I agree something needed to be done. What became the problem was that where one thing would have been good, they did several. They could have redistributed the tree OR reballanced the wild animals OR cut down the damage done by pets, but instead they did it all. Did it have the effect of knocking the dabblers out of the ranks? Sure did, but any one of these on its own would have done the same.
DaBudo2
Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:07 am
#36
Well, this probably won't be well received. But I believe it's grossly unfair to say that TH lied. While I do agree -strongly - withpretty mucheverything Pluto said as far as the results of The Nerf (or Nerfs, plural, actually), I also think that pretty much everything TH said, at the time he said it, was true. Much of it is still true. Re-reading TH's post, sorry, I don't see any lies there. At the very least, I do not believe there was any intent to lie or deceive. I've been playing CH since like September (?). CH was an imbalanced/over poweredprofession. "Dabblers" were taking unfair advantage of CH abilities. I don't see how anyone can say that changes didn't need to be made.
BUT. The changes were draconian to say the least. The changes did gut the CH profession, at least as far as PvP goes and made PvE more difficult. Of course, all done in the name of "combat rebalance". I've really come to hate "Wait for rebalance" as an answer to our questions. Except that after talking to devs at Fanfest, I believe that theythought they couldimplement an over all combat rebalance in the near future after the CH Nerf.
Should the devs have been able to foresee the consequences The Nerfs would have on CH? Yep, some any way- maybe most. But I don't believe that they did, not really. That doesn't make anyone liars, though. When TH said what he said, he/devs believed them to be true. And we can hardly hold TH responsible for how the bugs affected CH. Those just can't be anticipated. So, didhelie when he said what he did about the special/ranged attacks? That's just not fair to say.
I also don't believe that the devs really understood the effects thatthings like vehicles and buffs and composite armor and other professions gettingrevamped and defense stacking and I don't know what all else would have on the game in general or CH in particular. Should they have? I don't know. There's millions and millions of lines of code in this game, I'm glad I don't have to keep track of it. Again, even if they should have, that doesn't make anyone liars because they didn't.
CH has been put on the back burner. We are ignored to a large extent. The devs do have other priorities.The changes made were ill-considered and hastily implemented. However, to call someone a liar when they said something in good faith is grossly unfair.
Wabit
Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:28 am
#37
i take 3 months off from the game and its the same old whine...
for those that forget about the mounts... when they first came out it wasn't odd to see a CH selling them for 100k (we didn't make alot of friends doing that)... after the patch that got vechiles mounts are useless...
about dabblers, yes they were the main cause for the nerf... but honestly what did anyone need 2 GM's out for anyways??? one could tank forever... and just spending less than half the SP as MCH... i made alot of credits sellin baby GM's...
70 is a good cap for the cl... if you went to 100 we would be right back where we were when the game came out... and think of the other wild pets under 100... maloc plainswalker comes to mind... AR1 100% kin res... it would be the only pet you'd ever need for PvE... not even have to invest in petstems...
and med armor... noway... there is the i win button...
for those that MCH was your primary combat profession... think about it, what did you do that was combat???? /yell a over and over... /maskscentthrow a couple stems on the pet... fall back outta range of the mob... it wasn't really you doin the combat, it was the pet...
MCH is not a broken profession, except for the special attacks... it gives us the ability to take on the things most others cring at alone...
and i'd rather have my 2 BE kittys than the 2 GM combo any day... they don't wander off or ever run away from the mob...
and one more thing quit beating a dead horse... we all know that TH HATES CH's... some of the referances are so outdated its obscene...
bah i come to the forums to see about the updates in the patches i've missed, and any cool pets there are to get... first post i see is one that was necro'd from feb... the next one is this... i'm guessing that the third post i'll see is one calling for a nerf on CH... i guess things never change, now i'm afraid to goto the rifleman forums... bah
Dodece
Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:05 am
#38
In my oppinion the armor rateings in the game need looked at seriously. I agree there but medium armor is just not aplicable now. Why do you need heavy armor peirceing to cut through composite that is listed as light armor. Add onto that the only marksman weapon that has medium armor peirceing is the laser rifle. We can only hope when they take the hacksaw to armor resists. That they will look at them throughout the game.
Asside from that those 10k ham level ten pets are a freaking exploit. They are not intended to exists, and they are able to do it because of one little critter on endor that they get dna off of. Its hardly exploited. Most likely because nobody needs a tank in the mighty kingdom of buff. Where as a 800 max dam multi sliced t21 is a big problem. We just have to wait till after the rebalance when that pet becomes a problem.
raynedog
Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:32 am
#39
I don't think TH so much lied as just possibly unwillingly mislead. The way I understood his post when I first read it was that everything would be the same, they where just going to get rid of the dablers. It turns out that not only did they get rid of the dabblers but they also made it basicly made it worthless in PvP, and barley usefull in PvE. I think the Devs made a rush to stop all the template of the month people but hit us so hard that those who actually like CH got left with notthing.
The thing that'a really missing in my mind is, not all pets should be uber, however there needs to be a system where a CH can put time,credits,effort into making thier pet a force to be delt with. Pet armor,loaylty over time,pet Sea's,creature farms, all these type ideas are what's missing. Where is the CH end game content?