Creature Handler Archive
Thread: ONE more time..Creature Handler IS a combat profession
BlindTyldak
Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:50 pm
#27
Actually I think the answer to the "targetable" question would be pretty simple . . . make "guard" a more effective pet command (better yet, put in a "Guard II" so we have a choice). If you have your pet use Guard II, lets say, it makes an active effort to defend you and take the damage that's targeted toward you. This would realistically only work against damage coming from theplayer the pets is already targeted on.
Omegaplex
Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:35 pm
#28
If we *are* a combat profession, we're unequivocally the worst one in the game.
I for one would rather be good at something, than the absolute worst.Our best pets can hit for 500ish; a Commando can break 25 *thousand* damage, and every combat prof has attacks in the thousands.
If we're combat, then we're in need of some serious help 
Vertexon
Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:03 pm
#29
Really great thread with lots of interesting discussion going on.
BlindTyldak wrote:
Well, you know I agree with you completely.
The problem comes down to we are also the only combat class that allows you to use another weapon at the same time. This is the real sticking point.
That really is the crux of the situation. It's not so much a matter of applying the label "Combat class" or "Support class." This isn't a class-based system, it's a skill-based one with "class-like" skill trees.That makespets tricky to balance because they are a separate entity and can be used simultaneously with skills from other professions. This creates the impression in folks' minds (albeit a not entirely accurate one) that Player + Pet = 2 Players
The conceptis similar to defense stacking (i.e. being a Rifleman and a Fencer at the same time), but different in that the pet can both attack on its own... and be attacked on its own. If you go up against aTKM/Fencer or a Swordsman/Combat Medic, you can't directly attack and disable his Combat Medic skills.Against a pet, though, you can.
The more simultaneous pets he uses, the easier each one is to individually disable (as well as giving Area of Effect attacks a lot more kick versus a pet user). This does create a disparity between PvE and PvP, though. Players are verysmart about target management. MOBs tend to be less so.
So I don't think it's as simple as saying that Combat Profession + Pet is automatically better than Combat Profession + Any Non-Pet Profession just because the pet is a separate entity. Being a separate entity provides both advantages and disadvantages. How strong to make the pets themselvesso the advantages and disadvantages of being a separate entity are in balance is a tricky business. Something that will hopefully be refined during the Combat Rebalance.
I don't think it's necessarily the case that we need to shoot for an "all or nothing" approach to using pets in battle. As long as we keep in mind the tradeoffs involved in "giving" skill points to a separate entity in exchange for its help in battle.
Message Edited by Vertexon on 07-08-2004 07:05 PM
raynedog
Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:10 pm
#30
Vex, you are wise sir, I for one am greatfull for your leadership.
I think the discussion is difficult because of the looming CB and even the GCW revamp. Untill we know what they have in store for us it's a challange to engage in a topic of this nature fully.
BTW Vex, (I asked in another thread but i'll ask again ) at one point I thought I saw a revamap sched for all proffesion, an order of importance so to speak, we've seen Jedi,BE,Chef, and so on, are we on such a Sched or do the Devs view us as already revamped?
Anyone know? i'm afraid we've been put on the "we'll get to you, when we get to you" list.
I think the discussion is difficult because of the looming CB and even the GCW revamp. Untill we know what they have in store for us it's a challange to engage in a topic of this nature fully.
BTW Vex, (I asked in another thread but i'll ask again ) at one point I thought I saw a revamap sched for all proffesion, an order of importance so to speak, we've seen Jedi,BE,Chef, and so on, are we on such a Sched or do the Devs view us as already revamped?
Anyone know? i'm afraid we've been put on the "we'll get to you, when we get to you" list.
Vertexon
Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:26 pm
#31
I'm afraid Idon't know of any kind of roughschedule (beyond what JustG has said in his State of the Game letters), or what exactly is planned forCreature Handlingin the long term. Anything in the future is very much subject to change as needed, so giving out rough estimates that later have to be changed would probably create more frustration thanthey wouldalleviate.
raynedog wrote:
BTW Vex, (I asked in another thread but i'll ask again ) at one point I thought I saw a revamap sched for all proffesion, an order of importance so to speak, we've seen Jedi,BE,Chef, and so on, are we on such a Sched or do the Devs view us as already revamped?
Anyone know? i'm afraid we've been put on the "we'll get to you, when we get to you" list.
theorb22
Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:08 pm
#32
i don't know about you, but it would scare me alot more if we were in the 'already balanced' list. i dunno if i could go to sleep at night anymore...
DaBudo2
Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:28 pm
#33
theorb22 wrote:
i don't know about you, but it would scare me alot more if we were in the 'already balanced' list. i dunno if i could go to sleep at night anymore...
LOL I wish I could remember what thread I read this, so I could properly quote the guy (or maybe gal
). It was in the context of GCW & combat rebalance I think. Essentially, he said that CH was balanced 9 months ago, and it's everybody else who is out of balance. Now, there's a thought to help you sleep at night.
BlindTyldak
Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:49 pm
#34
Right-a-roonie. The other classes were supposedly going to be ballanced to US.
Seiryuu
Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:14 pm
#35
You're okay with the fact that SL is a Combat Support, but it bothers you that CH is exactly that, Combat Support? why?
What support abilities do we have exactly?
You said tank. The melee classes were all given CoB and toughness to allow them to fill this role. They do it significantly better than any of my pets, yet they are "pure" combat professions. I can put an artisan in composite, give him a buff and make a better tank!
All of our abilities revolve around combat, preparing a pet to eventually be involved in combat, or helping it recover from combat.
I will humor you a moment.
I concede your point and accept we are a support role. Unfortunately, despite being a handler for over a year, I am apparently a very poor handler as I am clueless as to what support I can provide.
When I group, most of creatures around a lair are dead before I manage to get my pets ready since we ride there on swoops. Apparently my role does not involve anything where I am necessary to the beginning of the fight.
When my pets tank, they take far more damage than my friend's that not only started the fight, but have been acting as tanks until this time. Is my role to give the healers something to do?
The damage my pets do to a target is miniscule compared to my friends. I guess my role is not to provide extra damage.
My pets do get to cause intimidate and stun on some targets. Of course my pets are the only ones actually taking damage so that isn't really helping. And on the high-level mobs they never stick while the melee people I am with stick theirs. I guess it isn't to apply states.
When the fight is over, I have to wait a minute to store them while my friends drive on the the next waypoint. Is my role to lag even further behind, so that eventually I can just skip a mission ahead so I can join my friends in a fight?
I've got it! My role is to be a total pain in the bum because I'm not a combat profession but a combat support profession meant to slow down my group and cause them to take pity on me! My job is to cause my friends to learn patience, understanding and compassion for their fellow beings!
Seriously. What is our role if we are combat support? I'm not seeing it.
What support abilities do we have exactly?
You said tank. The melee classes were all given CoB and toughness to allow them to fill this role. They do it significantly better than any of my pets, yet they are "pure" combat professions. I can put an artisan in composite, give him a buff and make a better tank!
All of our abilities revolve around combat, preparing a pet to eventually be involved in combat, or helping it recover from combat.
I will humor you a moment.
I concede your point and accept we are a support role. Unfortunately, despite being a handler for over a year, I am apparently a very poor handler as I am clueless as to what support I can provide.
When I group, most of creatures around a lair are dead before I manage to get my pets ready since we ride there on swoops. Apparently my role does not involve anything where I am necessary to the beginning of the fight.
When my pets tank, they take far more damage than my friend's that not only started the fight, but have been acting as tanks until this time. Is my role to give the healers something to do?
The damage my pets do to a target is miniscule compared to my friends. I guess my role is not to provide extra damage.
My pets do get to cause intimidate and stun on some targets. Of course my pets are the only ones actually taking damage so that isn't really helping. And on the high-level mobs they never stick while the melee people I am with stick theirs. I guess it isn't to apply states.
When the fight is over, I have to wait a minute to store them while my friends drive on the the next waypoint. Is my role to lag even further behind, so that eventually I can just skip a mission ahead so I can join my friends in a fight?
I've got it! My role is to be a total pain in the bum because I'm not a combat profession but a combat support profession meant to slow down my group and cause them to take pity on me! My job is to cause my friends to learn patience, understanding and compassion for their fellow beings!
Seriously. What is our role if we are combat support? I'm not seeing it.
Littlemoot
Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:50 pm
#36
I think the thing worth baring in mind with giving pets a bigger damage output is that they might become even less popular in groups because others often see pets as "stealing xp" as most people know that you don't get CH xp based on the amount of damage you can dish out. I'd put state effects and better armour for pets above damage if anything was to change to make CH stronger.
The other thing that would help is changing the reduction in PVP - either so that pets take reduced damage or that their damage output is not reduced, my vote would be for the latter. Personally I think CH would only need a few minor tweaks (bugs like autostore aside) to get rid of a lot of the perceived problems with it's ineffectiveness but even as it stands I think it's a lot of fun.
Fubuki
Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:09 am
#37
I'm going to have to disagree with this thread in some ways.
First, I love being a CH. It's the reason I bought the game and I started working on that path on release day. I never did anything else.
I like being a master scout. I like collecting milk and eggs for my chef friends, farming resources, and being able to tell what the creature stats are without having to look them up online.
Secondly, I love being a fencer. Pets or no pets, it's fun to jump in and start swinging. I see this as two seperate careers that are not related. SWG's game mechanics allow for this kind of character development. It's why we have enough points to go into more than 1 profession.
I like that while doing missions I can have my gurreck chase down 1 stormtrooper while I smack around another though, and that's something no other combat profession can do. Sure I could do it as easily without the gurreck, but it's the RP aspect of having my pet jump in and help me out... and he does a good job for what I use him for.
I didn't take up CH to augment my combat skills. I didn't even really take up any combat skills until I was almost a master CH. I don't want to change my character.
What you're proposing is that because YOU want stronger pets, I have to give up either being a CH or give up being a fencer. Put me down for officially thinking this idea sucks.
My pets might not be great in pvp, but some of the above suggestions sound really bad to me. I don't want to do pvp and just stand there while my pets fight. What's going to happen when the person you're attacking ignores your pet and comes after you? They're NOT going to stand there and fight the pets and leave you alone unless they have the IQ of a paperclip.
You also can't make pets really strong without changing something. I agree giving someone master (insert combat class) and uber pets is overkill. That's why there are so many Master TKA's running around with 3 gurrecks when the game first came out, and most of them dropped CH when they got nerfed.
So here's my proposal. Add a new elite profession. "Combat Creature Handler". CH's have the points for it easily. If you want to use your pets as your only source of dealing dmg and have them compete in PVP with fully buffed players in full armor, then take up this line and get the ability to have your pets become stronger, ignore stuff like warning shot, gain high knockdown resists, get HAM boosts, combat rescue for incapped pets (back in the fight a lot faster) etc. By taking up this line, you lock out other combat class lines so you can't even dabble in it, and in return, your pets would be a match for any elite combat profession, and you'll have the skills to get them back into the fight fast should they lose a fight.
If you don't want to do this, take up dancing, fencing, chef, whatever you want and just use regular pets with no special advantages. Taking up any other elite profession would lock you out of combat creature handler so that you can't dabble in it.
Then people like me who don't want to give up fencing just to have pets, and don't want to give up pets just to be able to fight, can keep their existing multi-career characters, and die hard combat creature handlers could have what they want, strong combat pets.
Just my two cents worth.
-Fubuki
First, I love being a CH. It's the reason I bought the game and I started working on that path on release day. I never did anything else.
I like being a master scout. I like collecting milk and eggs for my chef friends, farming resources, and being able to tell what the creature stats are without having to look them up online.
Secondly, I love being a fencer. Pets or no pets, it's fun to jump in and start swinging. I see this as two seperate careers that are not related. SWG's game mechanics allow for this kind of character development. It's why we have enough points to go into more than 1 profession.
I like that while doing missions I can have my gurreck chase down 1 stormtrooper while I smack around another though, and that's something no other combat profession can do. Sure I could do it as easily without the gurreck, but it's the RP aspect of having my pet jump in and help me out... and he does a good job for what I use him for.
I didn't take up CH to augment my combat skills. I didn't even really take up any combat skills until I was almost a master CH. I don't want to change my character.
What you're proposing is that because YOU want stronger pets, I have to give up either being a CH or give up being a fencer. Put me down for officially thinking this idea sucks.
My pets might not be great in pvp, but some of the above suggestions sound really bad to me. I don't want to do pvp and just stand there while my pets fight. What's going to happen when the person you're attacking ignores your pet and comes after you? They're NOT going to stand there and fight the pets and leave you alone unless they have the IQ of a paperclip.
You also can't make pets really strong without changing something. I agree giving someone master (insert combat class) and uber pets is overkill. That's why there are so many Master TKA's running around with 3 gurrecks when the game first came out, and most of them dropped CH when they got nerfed.
So here's my proposal. Add a new elite profession. "Combat Creature Handler". CH's have the points for it easily. If you want to use your pets as your only source of dealing dmg and have them compete in PVP with fully buffed players in full armor, then take up this line and get the ability to have your pets become stronger, ignore stuff like warning shot, gain high knockdown resists, get HAM boosts, combat rescue for incapped pets (back in the fight a lot faster) etc. By taking up this line, you lock out other combat class lines so you can't even dabble in it, and in return, your pets would be a match for any elite combat profession, and you'll have the skills to get them back into the fight fast should they lose a fight.
If you don't want to do this, take up dancing, fencing, chef, whatever you want and just use regular pets with no special advantages. Taking up any other elite profession would lock you out of combat creature handler so that you can't dabble in it.
Then people like me who don't want to give up fencing just to have pets, and don't want to give up pets just to be able to fight, can keep their existing multi-career characters, and die hard combat creature handlers could have what they want, strong combat pets.
Just my two cents worth.
-Fubuki
Wallach1
Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:11 am
#38
Here's what I want to know, everyone keeps talking about how we can use our specials with both weapons. uh....WHAT FRICKEN SPECIALS YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!? Embolden pet??? Enrage pet??? BAH! two of the most useless skills I've seen. And as far as pet specials. They would do that with out commands anyhow. Rifleman's conceled shot is 10x if not more better than strong poison.
Now, don't get me wrong, I for one am glad we ain't a FOTM cause I would get tired of seeing Creature Handlers everywhere. Main reason I came back to CH when I rerolled was because I went to Master Pikeman then all of a sudden, it became FOTM and I will not be a Flavor of the Month. When I was running around as a Pikeman, I would get jeers of being a defense stacker and a FOTM, when all I had was Pike. CH gets back to its original glory, then hell, I'm gonna be called the same when I was CH before CH was cool. But I dont' think that just because we tame an animal that it becomes less valuable. I hunt savage quenkers with my carbine, and it takes me a couple mintues to kill it. I fight someone's savage quenker that's tamed, and it's dead in a couple seconds. Also, I take a pet that I tame and it's hitting the monsters a lot weaker than it's mommy and daddy where hitting me. What the Hell? Support Group or Combat Profession, either way we are shafted cause we really ain't to terribly good at either. I'm waiting for the rebalance and see what happens there. Till then, just forget about it.
Wallach1
Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:13 am
#39
JodoKai wrote:
First I think you need to go back and re-read so you understand what was said, then you need to grind out SL and try it for a little while to understand what a joke form up and volley fire are.
Wallach1 wrote:
Oh and also, to the guy that said that the Squad Leader explination was giving the same exact explination for CH, tell me, when was the last time your Cu Pa told you to form ranks and to volley fire?
First of all, we must of have posted at the same time so I wasn't able to read what you put down till after I finished what I typed, and 2nd of all, I've done SL and didn't like it at all.
THIRD OF ALL, I was going for a smirk factor, cause I would lay a brick if my Cu Pa turned around and yelled, TIGHTEN UP THOSE RANKS BOYS!!!