Creature Handler Archive

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JodoKai wrote:

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DaBudo2 wrote:

Futhermore, it isa pure combat profession.

I have to disagree with this part. I feel CH's can be best compared to Squad Leaders. A Squad Leader is without a doubt a combat profession there is no other way for a SL to get XP other than to fight. CH you could (though it would take years) go through the profession without ever attacking anything.

Keep in mind, though,thatwhether or not CH is an effective combat profession is another issue entirely.

Is CH a combat profession or a support profession? Let's first define our terms.

- "A combat profession is one thatprovides skills/weapons for the express purpose of allowing one to engage in combat."

Yes? No?

- "A support profession has no skills/weapons allowing one to engage in combat but ratherprovides skills/tools that enable other professions to function more effectively."

Yes? No?

Examples of support professions that do not have skills/weapons allowing one to engage in combat:

architect, artisan, politician (mudslining does not count as combat ), entertainer, medic (combat medic excepted).

Examples of combat professions that do have skills/weapons allowing them to engage in combat:

Rifleman, Pistoleer, Fencer, Teras Kasi, Bounty Hunter.

Again where would SL fit into this example?

What people either overlook or will not acknowledge isthat the Creature Handler profession does, in fact, provide weapons allowing one to engage in combat. Obviously, the weapons are the pets. Pets have one primary purpose: to fight. (That they are also companions is a secondary benefit). What is one of the first commands a novice CH gets? Attack. What is a primary way a CH gains experience? Using their pets to attack and kill. There is NO support class (well, certainly none I can think of) that gains experience through fighting/killing.

Is there really any difference between someone pulling a triggerand someone sending a pet?In either instance, a weapon is being used.It just sohappens that one weapon is inanimate and the other is alive. Again -if CH is an effective combat profession, or even if pets are effective as a weapon, is all together another issue. ButCH is a combat profession.As such, it should have the chance to compete asany othercombat profession.

A big problem with this way of thinking is that you can use a CH skills at the same time you can use your pistoleer/TKM etc. This would be like if I were a Pistoleer/Rifleman being able to use Mind Shot 3 with my D-10 Pistol, or getting my accuracy while moving bonuswith my T-21. If CH were made just as effective as a these other combat professions, it would be the same thing. So while I agree that CH is a combat profession, I don't think it should be as effective as pistoleer, TKA etc.

In one old thread, someone referred to CH as animal trainers. Well, true. So? Marksman train to learn to use a weapon.Unarmed train their bodies to be a weapon. A CH trains his pet as the weapon.

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Hope this was a friendly enough rebuttle

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Message Edited by DaBudo2 on 07-08-2004 12:42 PM

I could go all into how a CH helps more than an SL by saying that since everyone rides swoops the SL's terrain negotation is worthless, since everyone defense stacks the bonus an SL gives is also worthless. The only benefit is SOMETIMES the SL can remove Dizzy/Stunned as long as the SL himself isn't dizzy or stunned, but that isn't really relavlent.

I know as a master CH and some pistoleer skills I could solo most Nightsisters with no armor and no buffs. I used a PSG for about a month and a half and had no idea that it was doing nothing for me after the first 3 days. You go ahead and try to solo a nightsister with no buffs or armor as a Master SL and some pistoleer skills and let me know how that turns out.

I can send my pets in (I use GSP's since they keep up with swoops pretty well) and let them get the posion and disease so the others don't have to.

Most of what you are describing isn't a problem with CH, it's a problem with buffs and armor being way too effective. It's a problem with defense stacking. Once everything is brought back to where it should be, CH will be FOTM again...and for those saying they were CH's before it was FOTM, I'm not exactly sure what you mean as when the game first came out, that's exactly what it was. If you wanted to fight the tough monsters you NEEDED a CH. Especially when a Novice CH could pull out a couple of Rancors.

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DaBudo2 wrote:

For those who are still arguing that CH is a support profession, refer back to my definition of support & combat classes at the beginning of the thread. If you disagree with those definitions, why? Offer up something different that you think is more applicable. If you do agree, then does CH fit into the definition of support? If you say "yes", you'll have a tough time explaining your reasoning to me.

As for SL, does it fit into either definition? I would suggest that just because SL does not have a weapon to use that he still does have skills that allow him(her) to be engaged or involved in combat. But if you feel SL skills are not combat oriented then by the definitions I've offered, SL is support. Though,again, I think you'll havea tough time explaining that position. In any event, I'm sorry, but I still fail to understand how SL and CH are comparable.

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The reason I'm comparing SL and CH is I feel they both offer the same thing. They aren't straight combat monsters on their own, they just make combat easier for their allies. SL has NO ATTACK capability at all. You couldn't kill anything with only the skills granted by SL and that's not becasue the attacks are so weak, it's becasue there are no attacks (I suppose Volley Fire might qualify, but you would need a cert from a different skill). I think these two profession fall intoa seperate catagorybecause you can use their abilites while being a pistoleer/TKM/fencer etc. which is what we both agree is the major problem with beefing up CH.

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Galacium wrote:

I totaly agree that CH is a combat profession. It's a somewhat strange hybred sort of combat profession but in most games pet based professions are like that.

And the bottom line with many of our issues is we are pretty weak compared to other combat professions. I think our damage output is the #1 problem in that reguard. We do much less damage than most other professions. They do tank well, but armor and buffs have made that factor moot. Thats not so much a problem with our class but the heave effect buffs and strong armor have on the combat system.

I sort of disagree with the damage output: Take a Rifleman/Pistoleer and a Rifleman/CH. The CH can do the 500 damage (or whatever) on top of what a Rifleman does.

Skill point wise, I'm not sure its a great comparison. Most TKA don't use much from their brawler line, and most most rifleman don't use anything from their marksman line. As a CH I take advantage of my scout abbilities all the time, collecting resources, using terrain negotiation, and using mask scent. They don't help in combat, but scout isn't a combat profession, its a sort of utility profession.

Actually these are bad examples as two of the mostimportant HtH skillsare Intimidate and warcry both in the brawler line, and Cover for a rifleman can be pretty important, as well as strafe shot, both in Marksman line. While the examples were off the point is still very valid

Personaly I'm willing to be a bit weaker in direct combat than other professions because of all the usefull abbilities and fun things CH has inaddition to fighting. Pistoleer has nothing other than combat abbilities. CH has lots of non-combat abbilities. But they realy arn't so good that you could say that we arn't a combat profession or that we should be as weak in combat as we are. Look at rangers... what the heck are they supposed to be for? They are just about utterly useless these days and they take many more skill points that we do. We have it good compared to those guys. Still we need some love, and I'd propose we focus our efforts on getting some changes as a part of the impending combat re-balance. Anything we ask for before then in tems of combat strength will just get put off because they want to re-balance all the classes at once.

Can I get an Amen?

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BlindTyldak wrote:

*scratches her head*

Here's the thing though . . . SL is a class that's supposed to be grouped with others. CH isn't. That's what makes SL a support profession . . . their support skills. CH would be a support profession if they needed to be in a group to opperate.

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Well then you're talking apples and oranges, because if you say that your pets don't help you when you're soloing then I say you're not a CH. As I've said before I can solo most Nightsisters without armor and buffs with my pets.

People were using the argument that when they group a fencer tanks better and you have to wait for the pet to either catch up or wait 15sec to call the pet.

CH's do the same thing an SL does (I know I'm going to regret saying that when all the posts come in about how SL's don't tame pets etc. but please try to understand what I'm saying), and that is make combat easier on thier allies. That is their niche, offical or not, that's the purpose they currently serve. Like I said before, the fact that you can use your SL and CH skills at the same time as your combat profession skills, forces them to be in the same catagory.

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JodoKai wrote:

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BlindTyldak wrote:

*scratches her head*

Here's the thing though . . . SL is a class that's supposed to be grouped with others. CH isn't. That's what makes SL a support profession . . . their support skills. CH would be a support profession if they needed to be in a group to opperate.

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Well then you're talking apples and oranges, because if you say that your pets don't help you when you're soloing then I say you're not a CH. As I've said before I can solo most Nightsisters without armor and buffs with my pets.

People were using the argument that when they group a fencer tanks better and you have to wait for the pet to either catch up or wait 15sec to call the pet.

CH's do the same thing an SL does (I know I'm going to regret saying that when all the posts come in about how SL's don't tame pets etc. but please try to understand what I'm saying), and that is make combat easier on thier allies. That is their niche, offical or not, that's the purpose they currently serve. Like I said before, the fact that you can use your SL and CH skills at the same time as your combat profession skills, forces them to be in the same catagory.

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That's where you're getting confused: you're saying it makes things easier for their allies. You're still (even though you talk about soloing) placing the CH as a grouping profession. SL IS a grouping profession, always has been. That's its primary focus, is to help a group. That's what makes it a support profession.

CH, like the other combat classes, is a solo OR a group profession. The group is not necessary to gain experience, like it is in SL. (Or was, I haven't played with an SL since, wow, July of last year). In as much, that's what makes it a combat profession; the point that it is supposed to be effective solo, where the SL is supposed to be effective grouped. Yes, I know its fubarred.

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BlindTyldak wrote:

That's where you're getting confused: you're saying it makes things easier for their allies. You're still (even though you talk about soloing) placing the CH as a grouping profession. SL IS a grouping profession, always has been. That's its primary focus, is to help a group. That's what makes it a support profession.

CH, like the other combat classes, is a solo OR a group profession. The group is not necessary to gain experience, like it is in SL. (Or was, I haven't played with an SL since, wow, July of last year). In as much, that's what makes it a combat profession; the point that it is supposed to be effective solo, where the SL is supposed to be effective grouped. Yes, I know its fubarred.

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Yes you do need to be grouped to get SL XP but that's not really the point, but before I get into that more: It is my understanding that you don't feel that CH is worthwhile in the solo enviornment? If this is your position I have to seriously disagree with you (as I've already stated).

Forget everything about what is "Official" and how CH's get XP and how SL's get XP and think about the role the two jobs fill. As things are right now, they both fill a combat support roll. They both make combat easier while letting you use another combat profession to attack. This is the role both fill at this time, whether you like this or not or feel the role should be changed is a different argument.

One thing you keep ignoring about SL is that it has yet to receive its revamp, whereas CH has. CH is not going to change fundamentally, only slightly. SL is going to be made to have tangible benefits to the group like it is supposed to.

SL is obviously meant to be a group profession. A leader of a squad. Of course the profession is never going to be powerful on its own, unless you believe that "Army of One" line.

You use the example of tanking nightsisters. Are these the nightsisters that use their fists only or the ones that whip out vibro weapons and use force powers? When the nightsisters are working as intended, they chew through my pets in seconds and that is with a sizable group for backup.

You have yet to give me a single way in which I really benefit a group though. Poisons and diseases are not an issue if you have a doctor around or let the TKA tank. States are rare enough that they don't slow anyone down. What I do find is that I am far more of a hinderance than a benefit to any group. I am not kidding in wanting to know how I can be of help. I usually turn down hunting with my friends because I feel like such a burden on them (or tagging along like a little sister at best).

So far all I see is you comparing a very broken obvious support profession with a scheduled revamp to an already revamped creature handler which has no obvious support mechanisms. Tanking is the realm of the melee professions who are also massive damage dealers. They had a whole system added because they were not able to function in this capacity. We won't be reclaiming that position and if we do accidentally get it after the Combat Balance, we will be quickly removed from that role due to complaints.

Message Edited by Seiryuu on 07-09-2004 12:46 PM