Creature Handler Archive
Thread: ONE more time..Creature Handler IS a combat profession
A squad leader can provide useful (well, maybe after their revamp) bonuses to a large group of people. As a creature handler I become totally worthless in a large group. Actually, I become pretty useless with one person around.
What support do I bring?
And why has no one yet to refute the fact that the designer of SWG called us a combat profession if we are not in fact a combat profession?
This is EXACTLY what a CH does when he sends his pets in to tank. Why is it okay for SL to be this way and not CH? I've never heard a Dev say that SL isn't a combat profession, and as of right now CH is A LOT more effective in aiding in combat than an SL.
Seiryuu wrote:
Squad Leader is a true Combat Support profession. It directly aids others in combat.
First I think you need to go back and re-read so you understand what was said, then you need to grind out SL and try it for a little while to understand what a joke form up and volley fire are.
Wallach1 wrote:
Oh and also, to the guy that said that the Squad Leader explination was giving the same exact explination for CH, tell me, when was the last time your Cu Pa told you to form ranks and to volley fire?
Okay we agree that if we "juice up" (wasn't sure what the opposit of nerf is
) CH to be as effective as the other elite combat professions, something would have to be done to prevent stacking.Something I just thought of (now I'm not saying I like this idea, personally I like the way CH is now) was what if Pets only attacked 1 time for every time you commanded them to attack? The commands would go into your battle queue, sort of like:
uarmedhit1
unarmedhit1
petattack
unarmedhit1
petattack
This would prevent the "specials" from two different weapons going off at the same time. The downside to this is that it's not very realisitc to have a pet sit there getting chewed on becasue you haven't told him to attack.
If you are going to ask me questions, please at least bother to read the responses I have made that already answer these.
I suggested solving it be creating a "weapon" the creature handler equips. If the handler has this equipped, they cannot use a pistol, rifle or any other weapon.
You and the others arguing that Creature Handlers are a support profession are the ones that think Bounty Hunters should use carbine specials with a pistol. I don't think they should be used simultaneously. The logic is yours, not mine.
You've also totally ignored the Squad Leader example. Squad Leader, for those of you counting, costs 15 skill points more than CH, and that's assuming you only use a CDEF to get all the combat XP you need. By your standards SL's should own CH's. Don't even think about saying that SL isn't a combat profession, and CH is. I can Master CH without ever touching a weapon (would take forever but it's possible). SL's live in combat.
1) I said Squad Leader needed a revamp. That implies they are broken.
2) SL can gain xp without ever touching a weapon because all of their xp is gained through other people doing damage. With a full group running missions on any advanced planet, the SL take more time travelling to trainers than it takes to max out their xp.
3) I consider CH a pure combat profession.
4) I consider SL a combat support profession. Their purpose is to lead groups.
5) One on one, with no other skills considered, a Creature Handler should wipe the floor with a Squad Leader.
6) Once they are revamped and balanced a Squad Leader should bring massive benefits to their group, much more than a single Creature Handler. That is their role as a support profession.
7) I think Handlers should either not have the option of using another profession's weapons at the same time as controlling OR should impart a bonus to pets when using a handler specific "weapon" or control device.
8) I place no such restriction on the Squad Leader whom I have no problem being able to use weapons while further supplementing their group's abilities. (Of course with your logic, the SL shouldn't be able to do that or else they should remain gimped and broken.)
Now, please explain how any of this is contradictory when taken as a whole.
JodoKai wrote:
How can I say it? I can do it by quoting you directly
This is EXACTLY what a CH does when he sends his pets in to tank. Why is it okay for SL to be this way and not CH? I've never heard a Dev say that SL isn't a combat profession, and as of right now CH is A LOT more effective in aiding in combat than an SL.
Seiryuu wrote:
Squad Leader is a true Combat Support profession. It directly aids others in combat.
There's one problem here: the words "to tank". Pets only tank because they are currently useless for anything else. They shouldn't be just TANKS. They are weapons in their own right, or were, and should be again.
Seiryuu wrote:
I would have to say good then. You are using Creature Handler to make your other profession "uber" instead of taking Creature Handler because you want to be a Creature Handler.
If you like being a Creature Handler, then why are you opposed to it being able to stand on its own?
Erm, no - I'm using CH to complement my pistoleer skills and vice versa. Hardly any of the professions stand on their own. Youwere given 250 skill points to spend, I spent mine on being a master scout, master CH and master pistoleer and I'm happy with that because it suits what I want to do in the game.
How on earth can you say CH should be a pure combat profession that is most effective when you are not in combat? What happens if you get aggro while your pets are in a fight, should they disappear or become weaker?
Because the pet is in combat.
Reread what I wrote. "If I am peaced out or not in combat." I said peaced out specifically because I realize people gain aggro. If I am trying to not be in combat, then you are correct, my pets should not be reduced in their maximum effectiveness.
I just can't see this working, sorry.
There are other ways to simulate this such as requiring a CH "weapon" such as a quirt (riding crop) or something similar being equipped. While equipped your pets can gain defensive and offensive bonuses. With the new five second weapon switch rule this could work very well.
If you just want to stand there watching critters fight then great - but you don't need any CH skills at all to do that. I can't see how this makes CH more fun.
I'm going to agree with some of your points and disagree with others...
Skuzz wrote:
Heres some reasons why CH's unfortunately are still a support combat prof instead of a strong viable combat prof on its own...
We can only store a very limited amount of our weapons (ie; creatures), while all other combat profs can store literally hundreds via crates, droids, etc.
Disagree: I'm a pistoleer as well, I've got far more creatures than pistols. I generaly only need one or two pistols at any given time. I also generaly only use a few of my pets for serious combat. I've got no reason to need more creature storage other than for collection purposes. I think while having more storage would be nice its got nothing to do with our combat effectiveness.
Our weapons do considerably less damage then other combat profs and we have no damage types to choose from, its all kinetic. The other combat profs have a vast selection of damage types to choose from.
Agree: This I believe is our #1 combat deficiency, pets do way, way less damage than player weapons with special attacks. Why, because they are pretty much the same as the wild pets which don't do nearly as much damage as player weapons with special attacks. Solution.... Give us special attacks that go in our combat que just and have the pet execute them. They would have speed and damage multipliers, or special effects just like normal attacks. When we have them qued up the pets do not do their normal attacks. Not sure this is even remotely possible but its worth a shot.
Our weapons (ie; creatures) are subject to running about, self storing, glitching on terrain, etc. The other combat profs weapons always work when equiped and they can be changed in battle, creatures cant be swapped during battle.
Agree somewhat: Personaly these things havn't been a problem for me, and sometimes I take good advantage of them running around. Also you can swap creatures during battle, but it is harder. (I peace out, run away with my pet following, wait, store it, get a new one and come back)
In PvP confrontations our creatures suffer a 75% reduction in damage they deal, while those attacking back at them do full damage. This one is so lame its beyond words how it was implemented.
Agree totaly: This is just lame.
When we get a new weapon from the wild or from a BE we have to wait a week till it grows up before we can use it at its most effective, the other combat profs merely buy a weapon and its ready to go.
Disagree: While true, its just not a big deal for me and I don't think it realy hampers our effectiveness.
Message Edited by Galacium on 07-08-2004 05:07 PM
Galacium wrote:
Finaly I'd add that pets have some advantages other weapons dont. The most obvious is that they are both offence and defense. No gun will take 40K damage on behalf of its wielder. Another is that they have a longer effective range than any weapon in the game. I can tellpet commands at 100 meters out and never be at risk for getting agroed upon. They continue fighting after you get incapped, this has saved my bacon on many occasions. They can be lent to other players. I lend them to my wife's characters all the time with the befreind command so she can grind other professions without risk while I go do some crafting or what not. Pets generaly last much longer than guns do. I go through pistols like water but I've had my tank pets for months without losing more than a few vitality points. They can be gotten for free.
Exactly this is why I ignore most of the "Pistols/rifles/carbines can do this we should do" statements made they just aren't valid.
Also, sure once you make Squad Leader, you're absolutely correct you don't need to ever fight...but to get there you need to do it A LOT. I can master CH including the prereques without ever touching a gun. All I need is a group to kill things for me to harvest. I would say this qualifies SL as more of a combat profession than CH.
You're okay with the fact that SL is a Combat Support, but it bothers you that CH is exactly that, Combat Support? why?
) In DAoC the pet classes also have some combat ability, but the combat ability is weak in comparison with the pet itself; druids are a perfect example, with decent pets (if you dump all your points into them) but they are limited to a staff (if I remember right). If you take the other druid abilities, being buffs and healing, your pet ability suffers; you need to make that choice.I believe the pet classes in EQ work approximately the same as the DAoC ones, where handlers + pets are about equal to any other combat class, at least enough to be considered a true combat class.Just for the record, I love Fencer. But I would give it up in a heartbeat for Combat Creature Handler. Only problem is PvP. Would I be untargettable while my pet is in combat? How would I gain FP? I'd still like to give it a shot hehe, my pets are the reason I'm still here. If I can make them more effective in combat, it'd be worth it as long as I had some form of defense.
Fubuki wrote:
My pets might not be great in pvp, but some of the above suggestions sound really bad to me. I don't want to do pvp and just stand there while my pets fight. What's going to happen when the person you're attacking ignores your pet and comes after you? They're NOT going to stand there and fight the pets and leave you alone unless they have the IQ of a paperclip.
So here's my proposal. Add a new elite profession. "Combat Creature Handler". CH's have the points for it easily. If you want to use your pets as your only source of dealing dmg and have them compete in PVP with fully buffed players in full armor, then take up this line and get the ability to have your pets become stronger, ignore stuff like warning shot, gain high knockdown resists, get HAM boosts, combat rescue for incapped pets (back in the fight a lot faster) etc. By taking up this line, you lock out other combat class lines so you can't even dabble in it, and in return, your pets would be a match for any elite combat profession, and you'll have the skills to get them back into the fight fast should they lose a fight.
Then people like me who don't want to give up fencing just to have pets, and don't want to give up pets just to be able to fight, can keep their existing multi-career characters, and die hard combat creature handlers could have what they want, strong combat pets.
Just my two cents worth.
-Fubuki