Creature Handler Archive

"Why even go to a bio engineer? Come to your master creature handler for one stop shopping. They will not be able to command a BE pet to attack without paying the MCH to train it to attack, they will not be able to ride the be pet without their friendly MCH to train the pet as a mount.

Interdependancy is probably what you will see more of out of the devs in teh future, and well, we are interdependant with a BE unfortunately.

Also, last thing. Why woulf a mount buyer go to a BE, purchase a pet, wait a week to 1.5 weeks for it to grow large enough to be mountable when they can just get a full grown mount from the MCH?"

A lot of BE's on my server are master CH, so it is one stop shopping. They make the creature, grow the creature and tame the creature as well as have creatures on thier vendors to buy. If rare mounts did turn into big money like you dream, many more BE's would be MCH and how would you compete with that?
People go where the credits are, so if you make Mounted Combat Pets the new FOTM then BE's and MCH's will exploed on evey server and all of the sudden you would just another mount seller. If the FOTM wears off then no one wants to pay top dollar anymore and the price drops through the floor leaving us right back to where we are now.

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Vertexon wrote:

I definitely didn't intend to imply whether or not mounted combat is a part of the Combat Upgrade, Felis. The only information regarding Combat Upgrade is what has been publicly released by the Devs, so as yet unmentioned items shouldn't be inferred one way or the other.

What I had meant by "quick fixes" is that Tiggs specifically asked for examples of commands that could be allowed while mounted (a seemingly light development task compared to some of the more weightyfeature requests folks were listing). So I only meant to suggest that shaping your responses toward that end seems more likely to be of help on this particular occasion.

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Sorry if I came off a bit terse or otherwise unfriendly towards you, Vertexon; that wasn't my intention. Nor did I intend to make it seem that you implied anything. (I understand you probably are bound by a few NDAs, and I'd be paranoid about seeming to in any way be saying anything.)

The only real thing I was saying there is that this shouldn't be an issue in a seperate update... there should be a lot of it involved in the CURB. Or, at least, I would push heavily for that if I were a part of the development team. Adding commands to the mounted creature experience seems more weighty than the many wishes that are involved, mainly removing the "if posture=mounted then action_fail" or changing it to "if posture=mounted && HasSkill("CreatureHandler") then action_succeed". Adding commands involves new animations, possibly new art, and more underlying code for the commands.

Of course, the minds of Devs may go in many different ways as far as this. It'd be interesting to sneak a peak at the master design document for the game... I'm sure it has one...

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raynedog wrote:
"Why even go to a bio engineer? Come to your master creature handler for one stop shopping. They will not be able to command a BE pet to attack without paying the MCH to train it to attack, they will not be able to ride the be pet without their friendly MCH to train the pet as a mount.

Interdependancy is probably what you will see more of out of the devs in teh future, and well, we are interdependant with a BE unfortunately.

Also, last thing. Why woulf a mount buyer go to a BE, purchase a pet, wait a week to 1.5 weeks for it to grow large enough to be mountable when they can just get a full grown mount from the MCH?"

A lot of BE's on my server are master CH, so it is one stop shopping. They make the creature, grow the creature and tame the creature as well as have creatures on thier vendors to buy. If rare mounts did turn into big money like you dream, many more BE's would be MCH and how would you compete with that?
People go where the credits are, so if you make Mounted Combat Pets the new FOTM then BE's and MCH's will exploed on evey server and all of the sudden you would just another mount seller. If the FOTM wears off then no one wants to pay top dollar anymore and the price drops through the floor leaving us right back to where we are now.

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I don't really think they would turn into big money, that was all jsut fluf on my part. But who cares if bio engineers can make pets, it was our right first. I am never gonna defend a bio engineer's right to sell a pet, they sell a deed, we have the opportunity to sell pets.

FOTM mastering CH in 2 days just doesn't sound realistic. At any rate, I don't want them to be overpriced things, if I could sell a pet for 20k i woul dbe stoked.

That is why I think there needs to be an interdependancy, the BEs here HAVE to be a master CH to offer 1 stop shopping. The master CHs don't HAVE to be a BE. I could care less about the BE portion of this (sorry alkrin).

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raynedog wrote:
heh, normally I try to be very open to a wide range of ideas and concepts but on Mounted Combat I'm going to choose to stick to my guns.
Anything beyond a basic attack for anyone besides CH and possibly Rangers is a mistake IMO. You're not going to sell more mounts, that's the bottom line. If they are going to add any real mounted combat that role should belong to the CH, and the Ch can decied if they want to mix that with TKA,or Swordsmen, or what ever.
When it comes to creatures in combat, CH should be the kings of creatures in combat, mounted or otherwise. I have a feeling that most of the players will get their way and we will see some weak form of mounted combat that everyone can do and CH will once again fade off into the shadows as they are taken out by someone on a creature mount.
I also have to agree that BE's are the ones who will see the income from any changes not you, you'll be the "can you tame this" guy. There are plenty of CH who tame for free, so what ever you charge won't be much because most players know they can get a creature tamed for almost free anyway.
You want a way to sell pets and make an income, that's what BE's are for, to sell pets and make an income. We are combat, not crafters. CH isn't broken because there isn't a steady flow of income, it's broken because of the problems we have in combat. An idea like the corral is nice because it lets players decied if they want to try to make an income as a CH or just tame and train there own pets for combat. I hear you when you say you want a steady source of income from your CH skills but I don't think there is much of anything they can do to make that happen. The only income you would see is a boom in sales the first week or so then you would be back to the same old thing and mounted combat will still be a joke.

So, if there is going to be REAL mounted combat allowed then CH should own it like no one else, besides possibly rangers. I'm in favor of an actual mounted combat system rather then some weak standard attacks that everyone can do and don't really help that much in combat. Besides, if they allow combat from a mount speeders can't be far behind and then where will you be? IMO anything that you allow from speeder, makes the same action pointless to do on a mount.

Give me a reason to fight mounted, and give that reason to CH.

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Ekaw wrote:

Yes. That is what I am saying, you jsut wanna make them more useless to the masses? Why deny teh ability to ride a horse (which any fool can do) to the masses? If there are combat and defensive bonuses to riding a mount AND a little additional speed, they will certainly sell.

We have zero source of income now, I don't want any special perks, we have enough I do think. We say it all the time, this is the most rewarding profession in SWG. That can't be argued with. Now give us something to make a lil change with.

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Spazzers wrote:

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Ekaw wrote:

Yes. That is what I am saying, you jsut wanna make them more useless to the masses? Why deny teh ability to ride a horse (which any fool can do) to the masses? If there are combat and defensive bonuses to riding a mount AND a little additional speed, they will certainly sell.

We have zero source of income now, I don't want any special perks, we have enough I do think. We say it all the time, this is the most rewarding profession in SWG. That can't be argued with. Now give us something to make a lil change with.

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I hate to say this, and I don't mean it to sound as harsh as it is going to sound but, you won't make any more money from these changes than you are already. Why you ask? Because bio-engineers can make every single mount type in a non-creature handler form and bio-engineers can make them better than the wild animals.

All your changes to mounts do is encourage the masses run to the bio-engineers to buy a mount then run to you and ask you to train them. Is that what you really want?

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Why even go to a bio engineer? Come to your master creature handler for one stop shopping. They will not be able to command a BE pet to attack without paying the MCH to train it to attack, they will not be able to ride the be pet without their friendly MCH to train the pet as a mount.

Interdependancy is probably what you will see more of out of the devs in teh future, and well, we are interdependant with a BE unfortunately.

Also, last thing. Why woulf a mount buyer go to a BE, purchase a pet, wait a week to 1.5 weeks for it to grow large enough to be mountable when they can just get a full grown mount from the MCH?

My 10 cents is out there, please reply.

Thank you.

Message Edited by Ekaw on 02-02-2005 04:19 PM

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Vertexon wrote:

My thought is that just allowing use of specials while mounted isn't going to be enough to make mounted combat viable (in the sense of being more than a novelty... and all novelties fade in time). As long as you can hit a hotkey to dismount and fight on foot in less than two seconds, there needs to be a gameplay advantage above and beyond being on foot. Otherwise why stay mounted?

Consider that you have to allow every possible gameplay action currently available on foot (not just specials, but healing, feign death, posture changes, attacking while "burst running," having the mount itself able to attack, etc) just to get on even footing. Not sure if that's desirable or even possible (posture changes while mounted?).

So I really see a need for what I'd call a "mounted combat revamp" that adds features and functionality to create a compelling reason for staying mounted even given the choice of dismounting first. That could be trample damage, slightly boosted defense, more control over going into and out of the gallop state, or any number of possibilies.

I'll definitely do my best to carry our wishes and concerns to the Devs on this as the Creature Handler community (and not just the general playerbase). But also keep in mind the current development schedule. With the combat upgrade pending, it may be the case that something like a "quick fix" addition of useable commands is more viable (for the moment) than a feature-heavy mounted combat revamp. That's also something to keep in mind as you reply to Tiggs' thread (and please do reply there if you haven't already).

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Well, as long as the devs have it thoroughly pressed into their skulls that they have nerfed Creature Handlers into the ground, that would be some solace.

1. Reduce all creature difficulty-level rating numbers roughly 25 to 35%, to more accurately reflect the relative difficulty level of wild creatures. For example, graul maulers are considered rather notorious pushovers, and they're CL-35. They should be CL-25. Greater sludge panthers should be about CL-20. Merek Death's Heads have light armor and dangerous specials, but weak resistances. Drop them from CL-56 to CL-40, or juice their resistances. Female kaadus would drop from CL-12 to CL-10, because everyone needs to be able to ride a kaadu. And so forth. This could probably be done by tweaking one variable on each creature model, and it would go a LONG way toward making creatures viable again. The goal here would be to eventually make Creature Handlers as dangerous as any other combat profession for the level of skill points invested in their profession.


2. Make it so people can shoot from the back of a swimming pet! This would provide an elegant solution to one of the most annoying in-game exploits/cheap tactics in the game: Swimming to avoid combat. Bodies of water should NOT be no-combat zones! It kind of works now, and I am well on the way to single-handedly restoring the reputation of Creature Handlers on the Bria server because of it. But I need it to work consistently. Either that or have one of those giant sea creatures from Episode #1 randomly devour swimming Jedi... er, players.

I posted a more complete listing on the other thread, but I wanted to make sure these two points get across. These are the two biggest game-breaking issues I can think of, other than getting broken specials to work properly again. If you could get these two implemented before the CU rolls out, that would make me feel SO MUCH better. If so, I could then possibly wait for a more complete CH revamp.

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raynedog wrote:
heh, normally I try to be very open to a wide range of ideas and concepts but on Mounted Combat I'm going to choose to stick to my guns.
Anything beyond a basic attack for anyone besides CH and possibly Rangers is a mistake IMO. You're not going to sell more mounts, that's the bottom line. If they are going to add any real mounted combat that role should belong to the CH, and the Ch can decied if they want to mix that with TKA,or Swordsmen, or what ever.
When it comes to creatures in combat, CH should be the kings of creatures in combat, mounted or otherwise. I have a feeling that most of the players will get their way and we will see some weak form of mounted combat that everyone can do and CH will once again fade off into the shadows as they are taken out by someone on a creature mount.
I also have to agree that BE's are the ones who will see the income from any changes not you, you'll be the "can you tame this" guy. There are plenty of CH who tame for free, so what ever you charge won't be much because most players know they can get a creature tamed for almost free anyway.
You want a way to sell pets and make an income, that's what BE's are for, to sell pets and make an income. We are combat, not crafters. CH isn't broken because there isn't a steady flow of income, it's broken because of the problems we have in combat. An idea like the corral is nice because it lets players decied if they want to try to make an income as a CH or just tame and train there own pets for combat. I hear you when you say you want a steady source of income from your CH skills but I don't think there is much of anything they can do to make that happen. The only income you would see is a boom in sales the first week or so then you would be back to the same old thing and mounted combat will still be a joke.

So, if there is going to be REAL mounted combat allowed then CH should own it like no one else, besides possibly rangers. I'm in favor of an actual mounted combat system rather then some weak standard attacks that everyone can do and don't really help that much in combat. Besides, if they allow combat from a mount speeders can't be far behind and then where will you be? IMO anything that you allow from speeder, makes the same action pointless to do on a mount.

Give me a reason to fight mounted, and give that reason to CH.

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I have to agree with this 100 percent. We need our nitche in game...this is where it really could be at for us. This is how I see a CH fitting into the game for combat.

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Ricbr wrote:

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raynedog wrote:
heh, normally I try to be very open to a wide range of ideas and concepts but on Mounted Combat I'm going to choose to stick to my guns.
Anything beyond a basic attack for anyone besides CH and possibly Rangers is a mistake IMO. You're not going to sell more mounts, that's the bottom line. If they are going to add any real mounted combat that role should belong to the CH, and the Ch can decied if they want to mix that with TKA,or Swordsmen, or what ever.
When it comes to creatures in combat, CH should be the kings of creatures in combat, mounted or otherwise. I have a feeling that most of the players will get their way and we will see some weak form of mounted combat that everyone can do and CH will once again fade off into the shadows as they are taken out by someone on a creature mount.
I also have to agree that BE's are the ones who will see the income from any changes not you, you'll be the "can you tame this" guy. There are plenty of CH who tame for free, so what ever you charge won't be much because most players know they can get a creature tamed for almost free anyway.
You want a way to sell pets and make an income, that's what BE's are for, to sell pets and make an income. We are combat, not crafters. CH isn't broken because there isn't a steady flow of income, it's broken because of the problems we have in combat. An idea like the corral is nice because it lets players decied if they want to try to make an income as a CH or just tame and train there own pets for combat. I hear you when you say you want a steady source of income from your CH skills but I don't think there is much of anything they can do to make that happen. The only income you would see is a boom in sales the first week or so then you would be back to the same old thing and mounted combat will still be a joke.

So, if there is going to be REAL mounted combat allowed then CH should own it like no one else, besides possibly rangers. I'm in favor of an actual mounted combat system rather then some weak standard attacks that everyone can do and don't really help that much in combat. Besides, if they allow combat from a mount speeders can't be far behind and then where will you be? IMO anything that you allow from speeder, makes the same action pointless to do on a mount.

Give me a reason to fight mounted, and give that reason to CH.

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I have to agree with this 100 percent. We need our nitche in game...this is where it really could be at for us. This is how I see a CH fitting into the game for combat.

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Ayup, very very well said. Though, might as well face it, there is going to be some form of mounted combat that everyone can do. And I think it should be something everyone can do - to a point. If it's done right, CH will be the kingsof mounted combat andwe don'thave to "fadeoff into theshadows".

I think mounted combat can be viable for the non-CH while the CH would stillbe the true "masters" of it. Much like I can use a pistol by just investing the minimum of skill points in marksman, but if I want to bemore effective with a pistol, I need to keep investing skill pts. in marksman. And if I want to betruly effective, then I become a Pistoleer. And if I really, really want to be the most effective with a pistol, then Ibecome a Master Pistoleer. I don't see why mounted combat couldn't work on the same principle.