Creature Handler Archive
Thread: I like CH and I want you to like it too!!!!
Aladine
Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:38 am
#14
Keaka26 wrote:
JodoKai wrote:
On a side note, I started thinking about the timer delay. What do you guys think about reducing the wait time as you move up the trees so that a master CH only has to wait 3 seconds or whatever, and still only out of combat? You couldn't do it while in combat, because if you had 20 rancors stored that would be a lot of HAM an enemy would have to go through, but as long as you were out of combat I don't think it would unbalance anything.
I think thats a pretty cool idea...
Yea I agree that would be a real cool idea!
Seiryuu
Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:00 am
#15
Yes, I recognize your stance on the issue.
Now some of us want CH to stay in that role, some of us don't. Those CH's that don't, need to come up with some creative ways to balance things out.
I see a few ways.
1) The control device. If you do not use it, nothing changes. If you do us the device, it excludes the use of a second combat profession and gives your pets an offensive and/or defensive boost that makes them equivalent to another profession with the same point cost.
I'm not sure what the opposition is to this as it lets both sides have what they want.
2) Simply exclude the use of pets while someone uses other skills. The mobs can ignore the pet, the pets stop attacking, whatever. I doubt the handlers with other skills would like this.
3) Have pets normally be at the maximum effectiveness. By equipping a weapon or using other combat skills their effectiveness is reduced. Not as drastic as (2) but likely more difficult to balance and implement.
I'm talking the way things stand right now CH is combat support simply because they have so much less power than the (other?) combat professions, can we all agree on that?
I would still argue we don't even qualify as a good support profession. We have no mechanisms to do so. I can agree that we are the weakest combat profession and as we exist currently are closer to support than anything else.
(And I will not ever believe that is our intended role until it is stated as such and we are given the tools to fulfill that role.
)
On a side note, I started thinking about the timer delay.
I think the timer delay reduction is a great idea.
I personally feel that all combat professions should have such a reduction for their related weapons. A pistoleer should be able to draw pistols quickly, while a bounty hunter gets a smaller bonus to a variety of weapons.
Put a +1 at the novice level of each advanced or elite profession. Then another +1 in the combat xp trees at rank four and perhaps a final +1 at master. These should not stack from other trees, but your best rating would always apply.
So the three marksman and four melee professions get +3 at master. Smugglers get get a +3 for pistols/unarmed, while BH and Commando get +2 or +3 to several weapons.
Creature Handlers could follow the system as well. We would still have the other calling restrictions, but getting us down to 3 seconds would not be unreasonable. We would not receive this bonus for faction pets or droids if technically feasible.
Now some of us want CH to stay in that role, some of us don't. Those CH's that don't, need to come up with some creative ways to balance things out.
I see a few ways.
1) The control device. If you do not use it, nothing changes. If you do us the device, it excludes the use of a second combat profession and gives your pets an offensive and/or defensive boost that makes them equivalent to another profession with the same point cost.
I'm not sure what the opposition is to this as it lets both sides have what they want.
2) Simply exclude the use of pets while someone uses other skills. The mobs can ignore the pet, the pets stop attacking, whatever. I doubt the handlers with other skills would like this.
3) Have pets normally be at the maximum effectiveness. By equipping a weapon or using other combat skills their effectiveness is reduced. Not as drastic as (2) but likely more difficult to balance and implement.
I'm talking the way things stand right now CH is combat support simply because they have so much less power than the (other?) combat professions, can we all agree on that?
I would still argue we don't even qualify as a good support profession. We have no mechanisms to do so. I can agree that we are the weakest combat profession and as we exist currently are closer to support than anything else.
(And I will not ever believe that is our intended role until it is stated as such and we are given the tools to fulfill that role.
)On a side note, I started thinking about the timer delay.
I think the timer delay reduction is a great idea.
I personally feel that all combat professions should have such a reduction for their related weapons. A pistoleer should be able to draw pistols quickly, while a bounty hunter gets a smaller bonus to a variety of weapons.
Put a +1 at the novice level of each advanced or elite profession. Then another +1 in the combat xp trees at rank four and perhaps a final +1 at master. These should not stack from other trees, but your best rating would always apply.
So the three marksman and four melee professions get +3 at master. Smugglers get get a +3 for pistols/unarmed, while BH and Commando get +2 or +3 to several weapons.
Creature Handlers could follow the system as well. We would still have the other calling restrictions, but getting us down to 3 seconds would not be unreasonable. We would not receive this bonus for faction pets or droids if technically feasible.
GMANHNC
Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:40 pm
#16
JodoKai wrote:This argument is playing out in a few threads right now, and I'm sure everyone knows my stance on this. I think we all agree that as of right now a CH's role is combat support. I'm not saying what CH's should be, what they could be, or what they were. I'm talking the way things stand right now CH is combat support simply becausetheyhave so much less power than the(other?) combat professions,can we all agree on that?Now some of us want CH to stay in that role, some of us don't. Those CH's that don't, need to come up with some creative ways to balance things out. They have to look at the big picture and not give CH a super advantage just because they like CH better. If CH is to become a true combat proffession, it can be no more powerful than pistoleer.On a side note, I started thinking about the timer delay. What do you guys think about reducing the wait time as you move up the trees so that a master CH only has to wait 3 seconds or whatever, and still only out of combat? You couldn't do it while in combat, because if you had 20 rancors stored that would be a lot of HAM an enemy would have to go through, but as long as you were out of combat I don't think it would unbalance anything.
You know you can still use camps right? If you are in a hurry throw up a camp, you can pull out waht ever you want as fast as you want. This still works.
GMANHNC
Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:59 pm
#17
It is premature (insane but true) to make to make this debate... I understand your newer, but when the Great NERF of 2003 was done it was to have been the first step of the combat blance, we were told that some creatures would seem to easy, and some too hard, until the combat balance was complete. Part of the balance hit TC it was scraped almost before it started. ANd then we got the... ummm. we are delaying the combat balance for a while. That was like seven months ago, so many have come to only know the supposedly blanced CH vs the UBER CH.
We can't really decide on this issue until we see what happens with the combat balance. Until then we just won't know what they want it to be. If we find that after the combat balance that TKM's are indeed supposed to kill enraged rancors in 5-8 seconds then we are in trouble. If it once again takes groups, then we will again be a viable proffession.
You must remember too that all combat professions are not supposed to be equal. That's why if you are standing next to a riffleman he may as well be blind folded, because his accuracy is way off, up close a TKM, Pistoleer, or any Melee prof should take him. But a Pistoleer will never have the damadge output a Rifleman has and they are using the same amount of skill points.
One of the biggest problems is they listen too much to the wrong people. With this the UBER Prof trades hands as NERFS are cried with the latest being the combat medic.
First it was the commando, they used to be able to stack fire dots... lol you were dead before you could blink. And then there were others, CH was one, because no one could compete with a MCH/MRM or TKM, etc. with out pets themselves, it had become "pet wars" although I had never seen it and I belonged to a guild of Creature Handlers.
This is a kind of a silly post, because if we do go through the combat balance untouched as said, we could possibly come out as quite a powerful proffession indeed.
Example, let's say a TKM can no longer take on Enraged Rancor's Solo, I have Pet Duo's that make short work of Enraged Rancors. Not to mention I don't have to relearn the limitations of my profession. So your TKM is standing there in his 60kin max armor with a 1.5-2k ham max, and my 2 lvl 35's with LT Armor and 60kin are pounding him with equal damadge discounts (they better do that)
And you say we aren't a combat profession. See what I mean we just don't know.
We can't really decide on this issue until we see what happens with the combat balance. Until then we just won't know what they want it to be. If we find that after the combat balance that TKM's are indeed supposed to kill enraged rancors in 5-8 seconds then we are in trouble. If it once again takes groups, then we will again be a viable proffession.
You must remember too that all combat professions are not supposed to be equal. That's why if you are standing next to a riffleman he may as well be blind folded, because his accuracy is way off, up close a TKM, Pistoleer, or any Melee prof should take him. But a Pistoleer will never have the damadge output a Rifleman has and they are using the same amount of skill points.
One of the biggest problems is they listen too much to the wrong people. With this the UBER Prof trades hands as NERFS are cried with the latest being the combat medic.
First it was the commando, they used to be able to stack fire dots... lol you were dead before you could blink. And then there were others, CH was one, because no one could compete with a MCH/MRM or TKM, etc. with out pets themselves, it had become "pet wars" although I had never seen it and I belonged to a guild of Creature Handlers.
This is a kind of a silly post, because if we do go through the combat balance untouched as said, we could possibly come out as quite a powerful proffession indeed.
Example, let's say a TKM can no longer take on Enraged Rancor's Solo, I have Pet Duo's that make short work of Enraged Rancors. Not to mention I don't have to relearn the limitations of my profession. So your TKM is standing there in his 60kin max armor with a 1.5-2k ham max, and my 2 lvl 35's with LT Armor and 60kin are pounding him with equal damadge discounts (they better do that)
And you say we aren't a combat profession. See what I mean we just don't know.
Systhro
Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:30 am
#18
CH can't suck forever, it just can't. SOE has managed to help a good number of professionsby now, they just screwed everything up when it came to combat. One day CH will be fixed, that's why I'm keeping it. I like CH! It gets really fun when you're high enough to call out your very own Rancor or Kimogila.
Someday this will all change, and all those who surrendered CH will have regretted it and they will have to grind back CH just to get whatever is new for us.
I have faith for CH, I'm keeping it. Okay so I'm not playing with my CH character anymore, but who cares? I just make another character on another server.
Abdullahsmith
Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:42 am
#19
I am the proud new owner of 2 Graul Maulers and 2 Crimson Razor Cats. I can't tell you the joy of find the babies and fight for them to within an inch of my life to tame all 4. Better than finding a AA or CA what will bring me lots of money. Or even a crystal.
I still love this profession. I know some of you old timers are unhappy becasue of that change and what not. But there is more to this profession than just kicking everyone ass without your own Rancor MOB. IMHO
I know some of you old timers are unhappy becasue of that change and what not. But there is more to this profession than just kicking everyone ass without your own Rancor MOB. IMHO
Indene
Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:23 pm
#20
JodoKai wrote:This argument is playing out in a few threads right now, and I'm sure everyone knows my stance on this. I think we all agree that as of right now a CH's role is combat support. I'm not saying what CH's should be, what they could be, or what they were. I'm talking the way things stand right now CH is combat support simply because they have so much less power than the (other?) combat professions, can we all agree on that?Now some of us want CH to stay in that role, some of us don't. Those CH's that don't, need to come up with some creative ways to balance things out. They have to look at the big picture and not give CH a super advantage just because they like CH better. If CH is to become a true combat proffession, it can be no more powerful than pistoleer.On a side note, I started thinking about the timer delay. What do you guys think about reducing the wait time as you move up the trees so that a master CH only has to wait 3 seconds or whatever, and still only out of combat? You couldn't do it while in combat, because if you had 20 rancors stored that would be a lot of HAM an enemy would have to go through, but as long as you were out of combat I don't think it would unbalance anything.
What support do we provide in combat? Our pets can not drag incapped players. They can not heal. They allow only momentary distractions which sometimes can be enough but not in PVP. The quick creative way to balance things is to put us back IN BALANCE with the current professions. Later when the DEVs get around to it they can rebalance all of us together. And I would not choose Pistoleer as the power refrence as they have lots of broke stuff too. So did you mean as they are or as they shoud be? As to the timer there is a VERY easy solution to the problem. Remove the calling timer. YOu can't store the rancor for 30-60 sec AFTER it stops fighting so there is no way to rotate 20 rancors. without disengaging combat and running away for a while. For you newer players there was no calling restriction (due to a bug) for the first 6+months of the game and there was no problem found that made this a bad thing.
-Indene-
Indene
Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:25 pm
#21
GMANHNC wrote:
JodoKai wrote:This argument is playing out in a few threads right now, and I'm sure everyone knows my stance on this. I think we all agree that as of right now a CH's role is combat support. I'm not saying what CH's should be, what they could be, or what they were. I'm talking the way things stand right now CH is combat support simply because they have so much less power than the (other?) combat professions, can we all agree on that?Now some of us want CH to stay in that role, some of us don't. Those CH's that don't, need to come up with some creative ways to balance things out. They have to look at the big picture and not give CH a super advantage just because they like CH better. If CH is to become a true combat proffession, it can be no more powerful than pistoleer.On a side note, I started thinking about the timer delay. What do you guys think about reducing the wait time as you move up the trees so that a master CH only has to wait 3 seconds or whatever, and still only out of combat? You couldn't do it while in combat, because if you had 20 rancors stored that would be a lot of HAM an enemy would have to go through, but as long as you were out of combat I don't think it would unbalance anything.
You know you can still use camps right? If you are in a hurry throw up a camp, you can pull out waht ever you want as fast as you want. This still works.
You know you can't put down camps near buildings or lairs right? In a crowded spawn area you can look for a while to find a spot. Further once aggro occurs you can't call a pet even in a camp (unless that was changed recently
)-Indene-
JodoKai
Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:47 am
#22
Indene wrote:
What support do we provide in combat? Our pets can not drag incapped players. They can not heal. They allow only momentary distractions which sometimes can be enough but not in PVP. The quick creative way to balance things is to put us back IN BALANCE with the current professions. Later when the DEVs get around to it they can rebalance all of us together. And I would not choose Pistoleer as the power refrence as they have lots of broke stuff too. So did you mean as they are or as they shoud be? As to the timer there is a VERY easy solution to the problem. Remove the calling timer. YOu can't store the rancor for 30-60 sec AFTER it stops fighting so there is no way to rotate 20 rancors. without disengaging combat and running away for a while. For you newer players there was no calling restriction (due to a bug) for the first 6+months of the game and there was no problem found that made this a bad thing.
-Indene-
/sigh
Please read what I wrote, specificly:
I'm not saying what CH's should be, what they could be, or what they were. I'm talking the way things stand right now CH is combat support simply because they have so much less power than the (other?) combat professions.
If my choices are Combat, Combat Support, or Crafting, I would say CH as it stands right now!! is combat support.
Seiryuu
Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:07 am
#23
If my choices are Combat, Combat Support, or Crafting, I would say CH as it stands right now!! is combat support.
Ah, now I know why you're getting such heated disagreements, Jodo.
There are those of us who were masters before the profession was "balanced". There are those waiting for the rest of the professions to receive that balance as well. All of us are going to view CH as we should be in relation to other professions, not as we are now.
We aren't even playing the same combat system as the others. That is why no one is going to agree with you.
So if you are going to continue calling us a support profession, get used to including the "as we are now" disclaimer everytime.
Ah, now I know why you're getting such heated disagreements, Jodo.
There are those of us who were masters before the profession was "balanced". There are those waiting for the rest of the professions to receive that balance as well. All of us are going to view CH as we should be in relation to other professions, not as we are now.
We aren't even playing the same combat system as the others. That is why no one is going to agree with you.
So if you are going to continue calling us a support profession, get used to including the "as we are now" disclaimer everytime.
JodoKai
Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:15 pm
#24
I've given up that argument as I realize it's pointless. It doesn't matter what you want to classify the profession as, you could call it "Suzey's New Day Job" class of profession for all I care, it just doesn't matter.
The point is right now, today, with current patches, CH is most decidedly NOT a combat proffession. If it were it would be just as tough as TKA and the rest which we ALL agree it is not. For those that want it elevated to a combat profession, there are some balance issues that have got to be worked out.
Personally I don't think you could ever make it a combat profession along the lines of TKA because pets are so much more versital than pets, but again, this is simply my opinion.
The point is right now, today, with current patches, CH is most decidedly NOT a combat proffession. If it were it would be just as tough as TKA and the rest which we ALL agree it is not. For those that want it elevated to a combat profession, there are some balance issues that have got to be worked out.
Personally I don't think you could ever make it a combat profession along the lines of TKA because pets are so much more versital than pets, but again, this is simply my opinion.
DaBudo2
Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:22 pm
#25
I certainly agree with point 3 in that I don't think CH sux. I still very much enjoy playing CH even with bugs, et.al.
Point 1 - it's always a mistake to compare a game to "real" life. I know we want things in any game to have a realistic reason for existing and so it is tempting to point to real life as atemplatefor why something should/should not "be". But that's a very slippery road to go down. SWG is science fiction/fantasy and just can not be bound by the rules of "real" life.
Point 2 - there are lots of things in SWG that are not in the "real" SWG universe. There has to be for sake of game play.
As for Point 4 - let me just point to the thread "ONE more time, CHis a combat profession" which pretty well sums up my views about CH as a support profession 
We are underpowered relative to other combat professions. Though I have said in other threads that we need to be careful not to make it an over powered profession again. CH is a very unique profession and it would be all to easy for that too happen. There has to be balance, and it will take creativity to achieve that.
We are underpowered relative to other combat professions. Though I have said in other threads that we need to be careful not to make it an over powered profession again. CH is a very unique profession and it would be all to easy for that too happen. There has to be balance, and it will take creativity to achieve that. But, Jodokai, you know I don't agree with you that "that as of right now a CH's role is combat support" 
Yourconclusion "CH is combat support simply becausetheyhave so much less power than the(other?) combat professions" is a bit flawed.Because CH is underpowered does not mean it is not a combat profession, though it is a good argument that CH is an ineffective combat profession. A .22 pistol is underpowered compared to an assault rifle, but that doesn't mean it isn't a weapon.
Yourconclusion "CH is combat support simply becausetheyhave so much less power than the(other?) combat professions" is a bit flawed.Because CH is underpowered does not mean it is not a combat profession, though it is a good argument that CH is an ineffective combat profession. A .22 pistol is underpowered compared to an assault rifle, but that doesn't mean it isn't a weapon. Reduced time: I like the idea lots. I don't see how it can be exploited. Though our pets are very unique "weapons" and there might be unforeseen advantages to this, I don't know. I'm in the camp that says if our pets are made comparable to other weapons in effectiveness then limit what other weapons we can use at the same time. Not saying don't let CH use other weapons,just thatthere needs to be some kind of balance while we have pets called.
Indene
Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:22 pm
#26
JodoKai wrote:/sigh
Please read what I wrote, specificly:
I'm not saying what CH's should be, what they could be, or what they were. I'm talking the way things stand right now CH is combat support simply because they have so much less power than the (other?) combat professions.
If my choices are Combat, Combat Support, or Crafting, I would say CH as it stands right now!! is combat support.
Ok maybe I am just being dense but I did read your statement. You said that right now because we are so weak we (in your view) are a combat support profession. Now what I asked and will ask again is what exactly can we do to support the combat professions? Near as I can tell we can be cannon fodder. Anything else?
-Indene-