Creature Handler Archive

Well, I like the feedback.

I am going to again go out on a limb in regards to the CH as a combat class vs. it being a support class. I agree the Devs say that it is a combat class, but the reality is not so simple.

IN a nut shell for me...mho mind you...just calling it a combat class does not make it a combat class. I form this thinking off these simple points.

1. I do not know a single CH that has just CH as their combat skills. Even the few Master CHs I know still either fight with a weapon or only hunt in a group. That speak volumes to me about what CH really is. Because, I agree with you the Devs say it is a combat class but the reality speaks something different to me. Where I guess we (the ch) land I guess is the topic of disagreement...they say it is...i know it isn't. Where does the truth lie on this I think it can best be found by falling back on the old saying: "Actions speak louder then words."

2. The only time myself and other CHs I know use their pets as their primary weapon is when they are grinding. Most CHs know that younger pets get more points so that is how they spend it. ALL the other CH time I spend (and again the peopel i know as well) use their pets as tanks & mini tanks... I honestly could say that I know I could not have leveled CH to the level I have if I was forced to ONLY use my CH skills. CH to me and to everyone I know is only used as a means of SUPPORT to their primary combat skill. (granted I do know CHs who are docs but they aren't really combat minded their pets guard them while in groups...again to me another form of a supprot class)

3. Say we all agree that CH is a combat class. Does it really change anything? OK CH is a combat class it still does not change my stance that the CH class is better used as a support class. Regardless of what it is called, what in theory was meant to be and what people want it to be CH imho is best used as a support class. Once the player base accepts that simple fact and uses it to their advantage I think more people will find that really doies rock. As it stands right now calling and using CH like a combat class is like calling a hammer a screw driver and getting mad because the "hammer named screwdriver" doesn't work like its namesake should.



note: In the last two weeks i have made over 250K selling non-ch mounts (both BE and Lessers) at 25K a pop. I have trouble keeping them old enough and mounted. Yes people whine but you know what you do not need to deal with everyone so i don't. I quote the price the person who wants a non-ch mount whines the deal is done, they blew it; even if they decide after they cried to meet my price. Because you are right they don't think they need to pay for something that takes me milliseconds to mount....but when I am asked why it is so much (asked not bitched at) I explain that my cost is based on a number of factors. My mounts are cheaper then the car, you are buying a full mounted 100/100 mount, it is trained, will be named what you like and lastly because i earned the right to be able to mount creatures. Like it or not WE are the pack masters we decide what it is worth and I have learned that I can get 25-30K for a pet...if the person wanting one right now doesn't like my pack master rules/pricing it doesn't bother me another one comes down the pipe who is always happy to buy my wares. I am not sure how it is on other servers but on bloodfin I have repeat clients and I have people come to me that my clients have suggested they work with me. Selling pets doesn't have the economic rewards doing a mission does or say being a buff doc does...but hell i am by no means broke and I know no docs who have a pet rancor....

I am going out on a limb here.....

There seems to be a lot of talk, almost too much talk, about the drawbacks of CH and ways to improve it.

I must go on record as saying, while most of the suggestions IMHO rock, I disagree with some of them.

1. Pet/Mount Armor----------------
While on the surface pet armor seems like a great idea I think it would only serve to foster a rebirth of the dabbler issues. As it stands right now Creatures need other adjusments prior to any sort of Dev time being spent on creating armor images and all the mods to the combat system it would require. It is my personal feeling that creatures should not be carbon based attack droids, that catagory is is already filled by droids; more so since the release of the new droid patches. While it might be cool to have a mounted dewback decked out in armor this doesn’t really fitting in the SWG world

I have not seen in any star wars movie any armor covered mounted pets, or any armor beasts of burden for that matter. While this no armor pets in the movies is a small reason it is still a reason none the less; to me anyway. My real reason for not signing onto mount armor concepts comes down to this how the game works There is no need for it. While mounted and in combat I have never seen any of my mounts attacked, the NPC is always shooting at me so why does my pet need armor?? As for the non-mounted pet my logic is again why make weak pets tougher? There is already a way in the game to get a tougher creature it is earn more CH skills....and/or use better BE pets

Giving pets armor really will hurt those CHs who have accepted the limits of CH and have embraced the cool aspects of this profession. This hurt would come by again making low level pets mini-tanks...when droid or interacting with a CH can get you a tank already
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2. Special Attacks from Mounts----------------
I was all for this until I did some checking on Mounted Calvary. Long story short in the age of horse based warfare much time and effort was spent my armies world wide to find the best “attack mode” for mounted warrirors. If we look to what the US Amries Calvary Div. did in the decades after the turn of the century I think we can find many _answers_ to the special attack from a mount.

Before they were fazed out an US Calvary rider was issued...a Calvary Sword, Pistol (break breech loading style) and a short rifle for ground work (a carbine to us). The mounted calvary pistol design, both in the us and europe, was one that would allow the rider to be able to draw, shoot, reload (by inserting the barrel back into the holster) and refire the weapon with one hand. The pistol became a new age calvary sword, one handed-ness was always needed because the rider needed to be able to control his mount with the other. There was a reason rifles, basic machine guns, larger cal. handguns, and pistol based shotguns were not used as their primary weapon those weapons required both hands and/or did not allow the rider to shoot off the side or the back of the mount with as much ease as they could with a pistol. Real world data suggests that the old school western movie of the good guys taking pop shots with rifles while riding no handed didn’t happen. More to the point no world army has ever used the solo rider in such forms...(not saying groups of mounted cav didn’t have volley fire...but that is a bunch of people sitting still and all attempting to hit the same target

That is a lot of spam to say this. In the real world a mounted cav rider who wishes to have a better chance to hit something, hit it with a “harder slug” or be able to reduce the sighting static (fancy term for being able to take a stable shot) they have to dismount and switch to their rifle class. Mounted combat in the real world is nothing more then sword combat with a firearm...the act of being able to repeatedly fire a weapon and the increased attack distance (over a sword) while mounted, to me anyway, IS the special attack. The same holds true for my thinking in SWG, I think the current system is perfectly fine with not allowing specials while mounted.
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3. Being a CH sucks and needs to be fixed-------------------
This has been pissing me off for some time because it is untrue. CH sucks when you hold it to a combat class because frankly CH isn’t a combat class. To me CH is a support class...much like...no in fact like Droid Eng. Read the Droid Eng forums you will never find a DE whining that DE is not combat enough for them. Why? Because a DE, much like a CH, is a support class. The De’s droids might help support somone in combat but it is never going to be the weapon that YOU or your group supports. Same as your pet I have been a CH for almost a year and I have never, nor have I seen anyone just using their pet as their weapon (grind CH skills on rats excluded) If you want to get pushy about...CHs need just about the same point spending in scout as a DE needs in Art...one could say survey isn’t needed but in reality we all know it is. Being pushy one could say we CHs could learn a lot from the DE because we have it easier then they do....we have a class that makes and support us in nice pets/mounts in addition to what we can tame/make ourselves while DEs don’t....once we find what we are looking for in theory it is combat ready DE needs to make the parts and still the sucker might break as they assemble it....your level only prevents you from having certain finished products DEs levels might prevent them from making GOOD core parts (if they can make them all) which by default prevents them from making a finished product...our crappy pets (lesser bol say) still has a market DE’s crappy low level aren’t worth jack...(anyone need a mouse droid?..ahahah)...the only advantage i can think of is a DE can make deeds...but I think that is why BE was born. So to me if you are trying to see CH as a combat class you will find the flaws, when you look at it as a support class you will find we are some of the most hardcore players if we use ourselves right
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4. CH pets are too weak-----------------------
Again this is untrue in my mind. Yes, if you are in the camp that thinks CH is a combat class that should be able to hold its weight against a commando, pistoleer, ect and ect yes pets are too weak. But, if you are in the camp i am in that CH is a support class you do not think of it the pets being too weak. My logic is simple I am a 3 3 2 4 CH but by the time this post is finished i will be a master pistoleer. Master pistoleer and master CH will make me very deadly...i will be more powerful then any non-ch master pistoleer and i will also be more powerful then any non-weapon ch. Above i held CH up to DE to explain the flaws in what is expected of a CH....again I will hold CH up to a true support class this time Combat Medic. When you sit in the camp that CH should be a combat class you are in effect, imho, in the same camp that thinks CM is a combat class. Cm is clearly a support class your primary goal is to support fighters through healing them, granted you can take some offensive stances but I have yet to see a combat medic who ONLY uses posion. Most, that i have seen, if not all CMs do not expect to be able to hang and fight against a true combat class (i don’t see healing yourself to live through combat fighting). Why is it that CH’s assume somehow we are any different? Yes, we have pets that can fight and there are some crazy pets out there...but lets be honest you can not expect a master CH with no other combat skills to be able to fight a commando...they will just shhoot you and deal with the pet after you die

Such core changes to allow a CH’s pet to hold a light to a commando just isn’t going to happen. What we want and what we got are to different things..i am sure there are CMs who would love to get some sorta lighting weapon skill in the CM tree..i say why? it is a support class pick up a combat prof if you want to your primary focus to be a combat class...otherwise pure CMs have learned their best role is to posion those who get too close and heal those throwing out the real damage. CMs aren’t looking to include better weapons or have CM turning in to a combat class by increasing posion. CHs should think along those lines....tank when you can with your pet..guard the medic/docs...help the real damage giving people with a gift of fearless pet having their back...solo with your pet(s) when you can...re-inventing CH pet levels is as silly as a reinventing CM to include lighting cannon.
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I know man of you will disagree with this and some will flame. That is ok, but i thought it was high time that someone who is an active CH, who wishes to master it and who has made most of their money dealing in mounts say something. I think there is tons of room to improve CHs standing in SWG however, I feel most of the changes need to come from the player class in the form of accepting what CH truely is.

You put up some good arguments, but you lost me here:

To me CH is a support class...

That is your opinion. It is stated by the devs that we are a combat profession. To that end we are lacking.

As a support profession we provide basically nothing. Droid Engineers can provide several droid types and can make a living out of the profession.

Yes we can create mounts but no one wants one. We we do tame one, no one wants to pay because it took about five seconds of our time including the transfer. Storing non-handler mounts limits our own space (for little to no profit). We cannot turn to carrying deeds around as the pet would need to grow and it turns us into resellers for BEs.

There is no other service we provide.

The special commands were introduced with Publish 5 in December. We kind of got them to work with macros around the time Publish 6 came out. Plenty of people did not know about the macro work-around though. Publish 6 made us virtually unplayable with the running, so it is tough to say. I do distinctly remember that my follow/special macro caused the running behavior every time. They were definately working (those that do work) by Publish 7.

I am a pure handler. I have no combat skills beyond what my pets provide. Several others such as SkyPreacher and BlindTyldak (off the top of my head) are or have been as well. We do exist, although I will grant you that our numbers are small.

While I agree with the "actions speak louder than words" philosophy, we were balanced seven months ago when no one else was. Creature Handler is playing a separate game to an extent, so using us as an example to point out we are meant to be support has no validation. (If we remain the weakest profession after the balance then I might have to conceed the point.) It really is not any wonder that the newer members of our community feel this way, especially since we have reached the point where we have more time spent "nerfed" than we do as a "valid" profession.

The recent announcement that the Combat Balance is being pushed back is only going to continue this unfortunate perception. I do fear it will drive out the last of the original handlers.

I am glad you have made a working business out of selling mounts. I would never be able to do so under the current system. As a pure handler, I need a small stable of pets to allow me to have any chance in combat and to allow rotation for healing. The rest of my pad is full of memories and extinct pets from my early days. I will not sacrifice them to make a few credits. As such I would have at most one slot to dedicate to training and if I have it occupied with growing pets, I cannot train anything for friends (or random strangers).

Until Recently, I was such a creature handler, and with the right pets, I was able to take down up to enraged rancors (single) with little trouble and little healing of my pets. By using specials to their potential.

As a MBE/MCH I wanted a vendor to sell my pets, to get a vendor on the map, I had to give up all combat skills.

But PvE I did fine. PvP, well that's a different story.
In a post above the reason for that is mentioned.

Anyway, I don't think anyone really should be able to take on multiple lvl 80's by themselves. It's just dumb what a TKM can do to an enraged Rancor Lair. Really I don't think even a Jedi should be able to do that. And I don't think anyone save maybe a Jedi should be able to take down anything over lvl 100.

Well, I like the feedback.

I am going to again go out on a limb in regards to the CH as a combat class vs. it being a support class. I agree the Devs say that it is a combat class, but the reality is not so simple.

IN a nut shell for me...mho mind you...just calling it a combat class does not make it a combat class. I form this thinking off these simple points.

1. I do not know a single CH that has just CH as their combat skills. Even the few Master CHs I know still either fight with a weapon or only hunt in a group. That speak volumes to me about what CH really is. Because, I agree with you the Devs say it is a combat class but the reality speaks something different to me. Where I guess we (the ch) land I guess is the topic of disagreement...they say it is...i know it isn't. Where does the truth lie on this I think it can best be found by falling back on the old saying: "Actions speak louder then words."

2. The only time myself and other CHs I know use their pets as their primary weapon is when they are grinding. Most CHs know that younger pets get more points so that is how they spend it. ALL the other CH time I spend (and again the peopel i know as well) use their pets as tanks & mini tanks... I honestly could say that I know I could not have leveled CH to the level I have if I was forced to ONLY use my CH skills. CH to me and to everyone I know is only used as a means of SUPPORT to their primary combat skill. (granted I do know CHs who are docs but they aren't really combat minded their pets guard them while in groups...again to me another form of a supprot class)

3. Say we all agree that CH is a combat class. Does it really change anything? OK CH is a combat class it still does not change my stance that the CH class is better used as a support class. Regardless of what it is called, what in theory was meant to be and what people want it to be CH imho is best used as a support class. Once the player base accepts that simple fact and uses it to their advantage I think more people will find that really doies rock. As it stands right now calling and using CH like a combat class is like calling a hammer a screw driver and getting mad because the "hammer named screwdriver" doesn't work like its namesake should.



note: In the last two weeks i have made over 250K selling non-ch mounts (both BE and Lessers) at 25K a pop. I have trouble keeping them old enough and mounted. Yes people whine but you know what you do not need to deal with everyone so i don't. I quote the price the person who wants a non-ch mount whines the deal is done, they blew it; even if they decide after they cried to meet my price. Because you are right they don't think they need to pay for something that takes me milliseconds to mount....but when I am asked why it is so much (asked not bitched at) I explain that my cost is based on a number of factors. My mounts are cheaper then the car, you are buying a full mounted 100/100 mount, it is trained, will be named what you like and lastly because i earned the right to be able to mount creatures. Like it or not WE are the pack masters we decide what it is worth and I have learned that I can get 25-30K for a pet...if the person wanting one right now doesn't like my pack master rules/pricing it doesn't bother me another one comes down the pipe who is always happy to buy my wares. I am not sure how it is on other servers but on bloodfin I have repeat clients and I have people come to me that my clients have suggested they work with me. Selling pets doesn't have the economic rewards doing a mission does or say being a buff doc does...but hell i am by no means broke and I know no docs who have a pet rancor....

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JodoKai wrote:

On a side note, I started thinking about the timer delay. What do you guys think about reducing the wait time as you move up the trees so that a master CH only has to wait 3 seconds or whatever, and still only out of combat? You couldn't do it while in combat, because if you had 20 rancors stored that would be a lot of HAM an enemy would have to go through, but as long as you were out of combat I don't think it would unbalance anything.

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