Community Relations Archive
Thread: Communication Breakdown: TEF Removal
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
jphillips1868 wrote:
Barb-Wire wrote:
i wouldnt worry too much about the negatives on this one. the only folks who hate this are the G-Tef griefers. and far as im concerned if they quit over this the game is better off without that source of grief.
While whether or not we should get rid of TEFs isnt' the topic of this thread, theadequency of the communciation on the change is theissue here.
Hey folks, I just want to reiterate that jphillips1868 post is not about whether TEF Is good or bad, rather how we communicate it. While I don't agree that we communicated it poorly, I would appreciate it if people kept their comments to communications, rather than debating whether TEFs should be removed. Let's keep that discussion to the In Development thread.
Thanks.
I may be mistaken, but wasn't there a whole long thread about possible changes where we all, Dev team and Players, bounced ideas off of one another? It was a discussion and a majority of what I read was removal of at least the GTEF, at most the TEF. Maybe jphilips1868 missed that thread. I recall TH took a big part in that, and to even the uninitiated, you could tell change was in the wind, and they were asking us, the players what we wanted. That is good communication to me.
As was said by someone else in this thread, the vocal minority in this case are the GTEF griefers and the Padawans that want to showboat and kill at bugged spawns for their XP. "Waaah, the game is getting fun, and I don't like it...waaaah."
Change is the only constant in the universe.
JEST3R wrote:
jphillips1868 wrote:
I hear what you are saying JEST3R. I don't disagree with you that the this issue has been discussed at lenght among player. But to my knowledge, this is the first I have heard that the Devs intended to change it. However, I accept that most players disagree with the original premise of my thread.
I ALWAYS said the devs intended to change it....
Infact that is exactly what a correspondent is, the funnel of communication between Dev/Player.
Do you think I bring up topics just because I feel like posting? As the Correspondent for the majority of the time for the GCW aspect I assure you quite a few times my inquiries were directly related to devs wanting to know player thoughts about something, or my posts are about determining how players want an issue resolved.
Correspondents Are the communication pathways to get player suggestions to the Devs, and to poll the players on thier thoughts to answer questions the Devs are wondering.
I guess what I meant was, until yesteraday, I've never seen a Dev post that they intended to change this.If there isone I would love a link. I do remeber posts by Holo explaining why TEFs werenecessary (or at least explaining his design).I try to read all of the posts in the Dev tracker, but I can't say that I have read all of your threadsSo I guess I missed your posts on that. Since I don't have a problem with TEFs and don't really see how they are that burdensome even if you don't want to PvP (very easy to avoid, and even easy to not PvP with them if you are remotely careful mostof the time), I had no reason to seek out information on them or suspect thereanything was going to change.
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
RedDragon133 wrote:
Calandryll_SOE wrote:Decisions are rarely final unless they are already in the game...and even then, things can change. If we get overwhelming negative feedback on an idea, we change it or reconsider it. We do our best to avoid proposing ideas that we know will be hated by a large majority of our players and our Correspondents do an excellent job helping us with that. Very few, if any, changes are ever universally liked.
jphillips1868 wrote:
Calandryll_SOE wrote:Actually, we spent a lot of time reading threads about TEFs on the various boards when deciding to do this. The removal of TEFs is something that many players have been talking about for quite some time.The updates are posted now so players can see the designs and give us feedback. The TEF changes are still in development and won't appear on Test Center until after Publish 13.0.And I am sure you read the many post that feel TEFs need to remain in the game as well, but I guess those weren't given as much weight.
But my question is then, is at this stage of the process, are you open to reversing the high level concept decision to remove TEFs or is the purpose of the feedback just to work out how the details will work? If you aren't open to that kind of feedback at this stage, my point stands. But if as I fear, the decision has already been made and set in stone, this is a situation that needs to be improved upon for future changes. Otherwise, you are just going to alienate more and more of your playerbase, but not giving them meaningful input.
Message Edited by jphillips1868 on 02-03-2005 12:01 PM
liked by all? hmm, let me think?:
- 80 itmes in inventory
- no lots on multipassanger ships
- improved spawn
- fixed rubberbanding
- more items in houses and reduced lots requirement
- np apps
- politician free of skillpoints
I cannot think of anybody who will not like thoseHeh, yea those are pretty good aren't they!
Hehe, you had it right up to the "no Apprentice xp needed"... I don't like that change.
I thought lowering the amounts would be good... completely removing it just seems wrong to me.
A little bit of required interaction and teaching should be necessary to master a profession.
It was a great idea, and it worked well in the beginning... the amount just ended up being a little high once the new player ratio lessened, that's all.
I think the whole profession speed-grinding is still clouding people's judgement on this one.
(Hehe, mini-hijak)
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
jphillips1868 wrote:
JEST3R wrote:
jphillips1868 wrote:
I hear what you are saying JEST3R. I don't disagree with you that the this issue has been discussed at lenght among player. But to my knowledge, this is the first I have heard that the Devs intended to change it. However, I accept that most players disagree with the original premise of my thread.
I ALWAYS said the devs intended to change it....
Infact that is exactly what a correspondent is, the funnel of communication between Dev/Player.
Do you think I bring up topics just because I feel like posting? As the Correspondent for the majority of the time for the GCW aspect I assure you quite a few times my inquiries were directly related to devs wanting to know player thoughts about something, or my posts are about determining how players want an issue resolved.
Correspondents Are the communication pathways to get player suggestions to the Devs, and to poll the players on thier thoughts to answer questions the Devs are wondering.
I guess what I meant was, until yesteraday, I've never seen a Dev post that they intended to change this.If there isone I would love a link. I do remeber posts by Holo explaining why TEFs werenecessary (or at least explaining his design).I try to read all of the posts in the Dev tracker, but I can't say that I have read all of your threadsSo I guess I missed your posts on that. Since I don't have a problem with TEFs and don't really see how they are that burdensome even if you don't want to PvP (very easy to avoid, and even easy to not PvP with them if you are remotely careful mostof the time), I had no reason to seek out information on them or suspect thereanything was going to change.
Read the patch notes, do the Devs make a post saying they intend ALL of those changes? No they do not, the intention/notification of a change usually comes from a Post in DEVELOPMENT, pretty much the place the TEF proposal was announced.
Tef changes are following the same pattern as everything else...
Player complaints
Correspondents FWD complaint
Devs ask about solutions
Correspondents debate solutions in the community and give answers to Devs
Devs ear mark a time table to address the issue (internal)
When that time arrives they post in development section of the forums of thier intentions (just as they have).....
Next steps will follow the same as usual, from development to in testing on TC, then to live...
Basically yeah this is a more significant change then normal, but it is following the same path as all other changes.
Owen-Lars wrote:
Jphillips1868 Wrote:
"From your persepctive, there was lots of feedback, but you have access to the correspodent forums and we do not. I guess I have a problem with anyfundamental change, whetherI agree with it or not,of this magnitude togamebeing designed in secret without letting the players as a whole and not just the correspondents, know that you are considering change that aspect of the game"
Although i agree that players should know what to expect to a certain degree and influence to an extent what changes are made and how they are changed, the corrs are here to represent the community. Believe me when i say we put forward the good and bad points, we spoke our minds and said what our concerns where.
And I am sure you guys do a good job. I don't like the fact the Devs aren't releasing information about CURB other than to the Alpha testers, but I can accept the utility of hasing out the details with you guys,and livewith it as longas we are given a chance togive feedback on the vision and goals you are trying to acheive.
It is far easier to give feedback to 30 players+ than hundereds and to be honest it would probly accomplish more with a smaller feedback group. The corrs do take the communities thoughts on board and do represent them well, we do bring the good and bad points to the table, but we also provide a guinee pig service where the devs can ask our opinions and our communities respective opinions in a more controlled a less cluttered environment.
At the end of the day we are all players, its just the corrs has the added task of providing a community wide perspective on things and ultimatly take into account what the devs overall goals are too.
I have to say though suprises are good, and this is just the beggining. Your concerns have been voiced believe me and discussed at great legnth, but these opinions are much likely to be heard if they are directed through your respecitve community leaders post in a forum less populated and with a lower post rate.
In light of the TEF suprise we just got, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that. Please tell us what you are working on so that we can avoid this kind of angst. It dosn't have to be all of the details, but rather the vision and the goals for the changes.
I supose what im trying to say is that lots goes on behind closed doors simply because its a better place to gather overall community feedback and a more confined area to isolate and address certain issues. Perhaps this is something for the newsletter? Something that shows what area the devs are looking into? Perhaps even no details just the fact they are looking into would surfice?
I would have been much happier, and really all I was asking for,ifwhen the decision was made to work ongettingrid of TEFs, a Devhad posted in concept that you were working on this and what you were trying toahcheive. Again at that stage, hopefully they wouldn't have too many details.
anyway i hope that addressed what you were getting at more but i do think this is a very possitive change for the game. We will have to agree to disagree on that. Although makng the number of bases count for something is definitely a big positive. I just wish it wasn't overshadowed by the removal of TEFs.
There is a very good reason that they do not ask for us to tell them what changes to make. The reason is simple. If you gave every person on this board the chance to change what they wanted in the game, it would be changed to what benefits them the most, with little regard as to how it would effect the rest of the game. The developers, we have to believe, have the best interest of the entire game in mind.
Does this mean that every change in the game is going to be well receieved? No, absolutely not. Look at Solo groups. Man what an outcry over that, and I was one of the ones saying it would be bad. Yet the game did not come to a screeching halt. Life went on.
When a change is announced while in development, we have an opportunity to discuss it. This change has not even hit test center yet. So if you have issues with the change make your voice heard. It is not written in stone that it is going live.
In conclussion we feel that we are entitled due to the time and money investment we have in the game to have our suggestions listened to. In fact we are not entitled to anything. SOE and LA listens to our thoughts on issues as a service and proceeds the way the feel best. And before you reply they did not give us a chance on this issue let me respond to that. They did through all the complaints they got from people being Gank Squad harassed, as well as the fact that they announced it while it was still in development not when it hit test center.
Thank for listening to my thoughts on this.
Message Edited by DravTroele on 02-03-2005 04:48 PM
jphillips1868 wrote:
JEST3R wrote:
Read the patch notes, do the Devs make a post saying they intend ALL of those changes? No they do not, the intention/notification of a change usually comes from a Post in DEVELOPMENT, pretty much the place the TEF proposal was announced.
Tef changes are following the same pattern as everything else...
1. Player complaints
2. Correspondents FWD complaint
3. Devs ask about solutions
4. Correspondents debate solutions in the community and give answers to Devs
5. Devs ear mark a time table to address the issue (internal)
6. When that time arrives they post in development section of the forums of thier intentions (just as they have).....
Thanks for the breakdown. It is hepful to see it laid out like that. I took the liberty of adding numbers to aid our discussion. At least by number 5 the devs have decided to address the issue. Maybe not the specifics, but something will be done to address the issue.I have 2 questions for you? How long agodid 5 occur? And what is so problematic withwhen the process reachingNo. 5 a Dev posting a vision and goals statement post in the in concept forum on this and requesting feedback before all the internal work is done?
Heck I have no Idea, thats why I labeled it Internal...
Basically at 4. correspondents push for feedback, if we are lucky we might get a Yes we plan to resolve it when we can, no specifics.
5. happens behind the scenes .... When its time, its time.
6. occurs when they get to the timetable and have begun to work on the issue, just as I am certain right now Devs are actually working on how to implement the TEF change now.
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
jphillips1868 wrote:
Barb-Wire wrote:i wouldnt worry too much about the negatives on this one. the only folks who hate this are the G-Tef griefers. and far as im concerned if they quit over this the game is better off without that source of grief.While whether or not we should get rid of TEFs isnt' the topic of this thread, the adequency of the communciation on the change is the issue here.
Hey folks, I just want to reiterate that jphillips1868 post is not about whether TEF Is good or bad, rather how we communicate it. While I don't agree that we communicated it poorly, I would appreciate it if people kept their comments to communications, rather than debating whether TEFs should be removed. Let's keep that discussion to the In Development thread.
Thanks.
Nice of you to post this but questions are not answered. The reason discussion turns to other threads is because you are not COMMUNICATING with the people. Were you to communicate effectively they would not ask here.
1. Will Jedi be stuck alone without help to defend them from Bounty Hunters?
2. Will I, as a Colonel, be allowed to turn my people overt?
Just a few unasnwered questions.
COMMUNICATE in the proper place and it will end here.
) In fact the devs changed the TEF because of how the grand majority felt about it.Just recently in This post if you read it carefully, you'll notice a very popular thing people wanted fixed or changed was the TEF system.
jphillips1868 wrote:While I am personally definitely in favor of keeping TEFs, the thrust of this thread is regarding how the change was communicated and the fact (at least i believe its a fact) that a change announced only after it was essentially set in stone. Even if you are for getting rid of the TEF, I think everyone can agree there is great disagreement in the community as to how this should be handled. Perhaps its ok to announce a change that most everyone will love whithout the kind of concept feedback I am asking for. But surely for one as contentious as this, there should have been a concept thread.
there was a concept thread. it was on the beta boards 2 years ago. the last part of the thread said "it is a decision we will look into in the future. right now our focus is on more important issues." so the concept has been there what your asking for has been done. the feedback was given in sandbox text center live and in discussion.
I am very much in favor of these changes (Though I do understand the disappointment in the immersion factor), but that is not the issue here, and I absolutely would back you up if I felt there was not enough communication on this matter.
When a change goes through (Or is announced) that you do not like, it bothers you that you didn't get some direct discussions with the Devs before they were pretty much set on thier ideas. (Similar ro how many feel about the upcoming Rebel Faction Armor... they would have liked to had an influence on the coneptual styles, based thier beliefs on how it would look Star Warsy)
I agree that open communication about things as large as this, or more importantly that you as a player feels strongly about, should take place more often than it did in the past.
The thing about the TEF topic is... it has been discussed a lot by the community (And the Devs have chimed in from time to time), but the big reason I think they went this path is that...
Any time the discussion of GCW and TEF's is brought up... it turns into the same thing. Two sides making thier case over and over and always ends in a stale-mate. It's about where those players draw the line for GCW immersion and acceptance/refusal of play-styles.
I think if they had posted a thread on this subject, like you are suggesting, they would have gotten the same exact debate that they have witnessed countless times before.
I do, however, understabd how that would make you feel better about thier willingness to openly discuss such major design changes before they are locked into design.
I felt this way about the Jedi Revamp.
By the time they announced what they had planned and put it into testing, there were too many things that many of us found unacceptable, yet were too far along for the Devs to even consider changing them.
Since it was asked for a link... I know of one offhand...
Here is a link to a great post, that eventually (Page 13) did contain posts from TH raising the idea of removing TEF's.
Factions Explained(By Guamarhea)
Again, regardless of our personal feelings about the TEF changes, I understand your complaint and would gladly stand alongside you on that issue, but I do believe that the TEF issue has been discussed enough for them to go ahead with thier designs without needing to run it by us any earlier than they have.
Basically it's a game design issue that they have collected the arguements for since this game began, I think thier thought process is that it's more of a FIX that should have been taken care of long before. At least some of them probably feel that way.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
That is interesting that there was a concept thread in beta. But since most people weren't in beta, that doesn't really address my concern.