Community Relations Archive
Thread: Communication Breakdown: TEF Removal
GnomeAd
Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:11 pm
#80
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
jphillips1868 wrote:
Barb-Wire wrote:i wouldnt worry too much about the negatives on this one. the only folks who hate this are the G-Tef griefers. and far as im concerned if they quit over this the game is better off without that source of grief.While whether or not we should get rid of TEFs isnt' the topic of this thread, the adequency of the communciation on the change is the issue here.
Hey folks, I just want to reiterate that jphillips1868 post is not about whether TEF Is good or bad, rather how we communicate it. While I don't agree that we communicated it poorly, I would appreciate it if people kept their comments to communications, rather than debating whether TEFs should be removed. Let's keep that discussion to the In Development thread.
Thanks.
Quite frankly, I'm having a hard time believing that. He's not complaining about the lack of communication on the Veteran's Rewards, right? He also didn't chime in on the long list of improvements that just got dropped onto TC last week. My opinion is that he's unhappy with the TEF removal and is using this issue as a way to vent about it.
Sunakk
Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:12 pm
#81
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
Hey folks, I just want to reiterate that jphillips1868 post is not about whether TEF Is good or bad, rather how we communicate it. While I don't agree that we communicated it poorly, I would appreciate it if people kept their comments to communications, rather than debating whether TEFs should be removed. Let's keep that discussion to the In Development thread.
Thanks.
I think the devs did the right thing in terms of communication. Both threads have ample opportunity for feedback. These changes are still in development, after all. Sure, there wasn't an In Concept thread, but that doesn't always happen anyway. The changes aren't even on Test Center yet, and won't be for a few more weeks. That's plenty of time for feedback, from which I'm sure the devs will be able to adjust the changes before they even go to public testing.
Saying that the community didn't have a chance to voice their opinion on TEF-related issues is false. There have been threads after threads on this topic, many of them commented on by devs. Thunderheart even started one a few weeks ago, just to brainstorm ideas to change how grouping and overt status might work.
In the end, it is up to the devs to make the decisions, and that's what they did here. They know what's best for the game, what's best for the most players, and how to make it fun for everyone. We can't expect them to involve the community with each idea they have of possible future changes. That would slow down development efficiency by a great deal. There is a reason why the Correspondent system was put in place. It's much more efficient to talk to one person who knows the issues of a community, rather than talking to the whole community. And it is going to bring better results, too. The devs could poll everyone whether they want the TEF changes or not, but that's not going to be any better than if the devs didn't consult anyone at all.
Keep up the diligent communication, Calandryll. It is appreciated!
silversaber
Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:13 pm
#82
I dont see this as an communications breakdown.
Them implementing it and THEN announcing it is a communications breakdown.
Since this hasnt even hit the Test servers yet, things can be changed (though I hope not) if the reaction is too negative to the changes.
No, I feel that this communication is just right.
MonsofoLexius
Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:19 pm
#83
The talk on TEF's have been going on for a long long time. I remember forum conversations about it dating back to November of 2003. I personally like the changes but am happy the Dev's gave us some time to talk about it before it goes live. I understand the "immersion" issues with a system like this but I feel that this new system is much much better then what we have. For a long time wehad covert Imperial wearing faction armor. Not all the time but enough. Now I am not trying to knock Imperials, if Rebels had possesed as cool of armor as the ST stuff we would have seen just as many Covert Rebels in Rebel stuff. But I agree with the need to balance immersion with play styles.I must say thata huge majorityof the times I been have killed in SWG on G-TEF's (as a doctor and a combat class player) have been from the "I PwNd JOU!" group of player. I might have been unlucky, but that has been my expierience. But my experience has mostly been, and contues to be, that with Overt vs Overt this is not the case.
One thing to consider for the non gank-squad hard-core PvPers out there who want TEF's to remain: The last 2 days I have heard from more then a few of the "old timers" I know who used to do much more PvP then they do now is that would go "On-Duty" much more often in a system like this. Currently I would saymost of themhave been overt like once or twice in the last 6 months, usually only to delegate faction. So while this is as much of a guess as saying "no one will PvP anymore" I think you might acually see MORE overts to PvP with. And comming from a Rebel that does not find many friends to go overt with in the current system I think you will be surprised at how much this could add to PvP.
my .02
jphillips1868
Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:29 pm
#84
GnomeAd,
You are right I am definitely unhappy with removing TEFs, but thats not what this is about. I will admit that I let my opinions on TEFs bleed into this discussion and I should have kept that in my posts in the threads discussing the issue.
But changes you mentioned are not fundamental in nature and frankly aren't much of an issue of contention among player. My point was, although i guess I didn't make it very well, was that for a change of this size and contention, there needs to be a discussion of the concept with the DEVs before they do much work behind the scenes. That way we have a chance to change the concept. And the Devs certainly don't need to do a in concept post for every change, but if there is a big change to a fundamental system, I think they should.
Others have pointed out that becuase there was so much discussion among players for a long time that that isn't necessary. While I disagree that such discussion negates the need for the type of concept level discussiom with the devs I proposed, upon reflection, I agree those are valid view have some merit.
But this is a two sided coin, consider whether you are against my post on communication becuase you are for getting rid of TEFs? I am not saying that you are, but I bet that is the reason for some of the 1stars I recieved.
What I am proposing has more universal and future application.
You are right I am definitely unhappy with removing TEFs, but thats not what this is about. I will admit that I let my opinions on TEFs bleed into this discussion and I should have kept that in my posts in the threads discussing the issue.
But changes you mentioned are not fundamental in nature and frankly aren't much of an issue of contention among player. My point was, although i guess I didn't make it very well, was that for a change of this size and contention, there needs to be a discussion of the concept with the DEVs before they do much work behind the scenes. That way we have a chance to change the concept. And the Devs certainly don't need to do a in concept post for every change, but if there is a big change to a fundamental system, I think they should.
Others have pointed out that becuase there was so much discussion among players for a long time that that isn't necessary. While I disagree that such discussion negates the need for the type of concept level discussiom with the devs I proposed, upon reflection, I agree those are valid view have some merit.
But this is a two sided coin, consider whether you are against my post on communication becuase you are for getting rid of TEFs? I am not saying that you are, but I bet that is the reason for some of the 1stars I recieved.
What I am proposing has more universal and future application.
gladiatory2k
Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:34 pm
#85
I believe communication of the TEF changes was handled well, it would have been bad if it dropped into test center ready to roll out on next patch.....This is still in the development stage, they try to update us on a new concept they have for the path the GCW will take.....I have seen a HUGE increase in the devs sharing ideas with the community. In the last few weeks, we learned about
- New armor
- Direction for the revamp
- vet rewards
- GCW content
- TEF changes
- looting changes
These changes are being shared with us BEFORE they go to test center, the documents are thrown out there for discussion while they are IN DEVELOPMENT so new ideas and tweaks can be made before this becomes SWG canon. I would like to applaud the Developers for at least telling us what they are thinking about rather than us being in the dark and wehear aboutchanges happening in a Test center update thread where implementation is merely a week or two away.
MonsofoLexius
Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:43 pm
#86
edited for wrong post
Message Edited by MonsofoLexius on 02-03-2005 01:45 PM
keb
Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:02 pm
#87
I see nothing wrong with the way this was released...they read the forums enough to see some of the debates on TEFs and took notice came up with a plan released thier idea of the plan and are looking for feedback....I'm pretty sure thats what we all wanted
Yeho
Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:03 pm
#88
yah i didnt know were to ask this but regaurding the new faction armor....if im a Twi'lek and i wanna wear a stormtrooper helmet. currently i cant wear any hats...will twi's be able to wear the helmets?
JEST3R
Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:05 pm
#89
jphillips1868 wrote:
I hear what you are saying JEST3R. I don't disagree with you that the this issue has been discussed at lenght among player. But to my knowledge, this is the first I have heard that the Devs intended to change it. However, I accept that most players disagree with the original premise of my thread.
Message Edited by jphillips1868 on 02-03-2005 04:06 PM
Message Edited by jphillips1868 on 02-03-2005 04:07 PM
I ALWAYS said the devs intended to change it....
Infact that is exactly what a correspondent is, the funnel of communication between Dev/Player.
Do you think I bring up topics just because I feel like posting? As the Correspondent for the majority of the time for the GCW aspect I assure you quite a few times my inquiries were directly related to devs wanting to know player thoughts about something, or my posts are about determining how players want an issue resolved.
Correspondents Are the communication pathways to get player suggestions to the Devs, and to poll the players on thier thoughts to answer questions the Devs are wondering.
AnXdiety
Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:11 pm
#90
Cal,
The major issue that abounds is that things are taken into consideration, then you guys have your little pow wows and mutate into something else. We would rather have the input and constructive discussion before you set the code creatures to work on it. There has been lots of previous examples of this. Take the Jedi revamp for example. They didn't need to be broken down into 5 different professions and a lot of the other extensive nerfing they recieved. Ask any pre-pub 9 Jedi and they'll agree that they would rather have their composite armor back rather than the imaginary toughness values we were led to believe our robes were being given. The same thing goes for the fabled crafting nerf that went live for a single day. The lone day it was live the crafters that did craft loved it. But the whines on the forums before it was even finished were soo extreme that it was removed.
Remember, measure twice cut once. The current manner is to set the coders in action before the secondary measurement has taken place. The majority of players have come to know how TEF works. That has become a fundamental of how this game is. The only thing that needed to be changed was the covert first strike opportunity that you gained via grouping. That is it. No need for the elaborate changes. If you were to ask us this before starting the coding (which has already begun if its due on TC within a couple weeks) we could have saved a lot of developmental time. Time that could be dedicated to other areas that need the love.
The major issue that abounds is that things are taken into consideration, then you guys have your little pow wows and mutate into something else. We would rather have the input and constructive discussion before you set the code creatures to work on it. There has been lots of previous examples of this. Take the Jedi revamp for example. They didn't need to be broken down into 5 different professions and a lot of the other extensive nerfing they recieved. Ask any pre-pub 9 Jedi and they'll agree that they would rather have their composite armor back rather than the imaginary toughness values we were led to believe our robes were being given. The same thing goes for the fabled crafting nerf that went live for a single day. The lone day it was live the crafters that did craft loved it. But the whines on the forums before it was even finished were soo extreme that it was removed.
Remember, measure twice cut once. The current manner is to set the coders in action before the secondary measurement has taken place. The majority of players have come to know how TEF works. That has become a fundamental of how this game is. The only thing that needed to be changed was the covert first strike opportunity that you gained via grouping. That is it. No need for the elaborate changes. If you were to ask us this before starting the coding (which has already begun if its due on TC within a couple weeks) we could have saved a lot of developmental time. Time that could be dedicated to other areas that need the love.
OdiousEncounter
Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:14 pm
#91
Agree and disagree. Communication is great right now, but there's always room for improvement. I think announcing the idea weeks before it hits TC is pretty fair. I can certainly see the argument that the Devs are only announcing it once it's set in stone. Floating the idea a month or so ago asking for more feedback probably would have been better, though admittedly the suprise would be ruined 
The Devs stated that decision was made largely based on anti-TEF sentiments read on the boards. Though they aren't strictly asking things of us, they are listening. There's still a problem there, though. Just reading posts is going to give you a much more negative impression than asking for feedback. People complain about things they dislike and want to change a lot more often than they praise things they like and want to stay the same. I can easily imagine someone getting TEF-ganked and coming to the boards to complain, but it's tougher for me to think of an out-of-the-blue situation in which someone would randomly praise the situation. In short, just reading means you hear a lot more from the people who dislike something. Asking beforehand will give everyone a fair chance to share their opinion.
The Devs stated that decision was made largely based on anti-TEF sentiments read on the boards. Though they aren't strictly asking things of us, they are listening. There's still a problem there, though. Just reading posts is going to give you a much more negative impression than asking for feedback. People complain about things they dislike and want to change a lot more often than they praise things they like and want to stay the same. I can easily imagine someone getting TEF-ganked and coming to the boards to complain, but it's tougher for me to think of an out-of-the-blue situation in which someone would randomly praise the situation. In short, just reading means you hear a lot more from the people who dislike something. Asking beforehand will give everyone a fair chance to share their opinion.