Community Relations Archive

---

Tricki wrote:

---

jphillips1868 wrote:

---

Calandryll_SOE wrote:

Actually, we spent a lot of time reading threads about TEFs on the various boards when deciding to do this. The removal of TEFs is something that many players have been talking about for quite some time.

The updates are posted now so players can see the designs and give us feedback. The TEF changes are still in development and won't appear on Test Center until after Publish 13.0.

---

AndI am sure you read the many post that feel TEFs need to remain in the game as well, but I guess those weren't given as much weight.

Butmy question is then, is at this stage of the process, are you open to reversing the high level concept decision to remove TEFs or is the purpose of the feedback just to work out how the details will work? If you aren't open to that kind of feedback at this stage, my point stands. But if as I fear, the decision has already been made and set in stone, this is a situation that needs to be improved upon for future changes. Otherwise, you are just going to alienate more and more of your playerbase, but not giving them meaningful input.

Message Edited by jphillips1868 on 02-03-2005 12:01 PM

---

The tef system was a shambles and needed to go... Only people supporting it are lamers using group tef for PVP and often overt peoples' enjoying killing folks who are tefed from healing/trade...

---

/agree

The TEF system, IMHO, was a flawed concept. I have no problem going overt, looking for PvP, and if I die by other overt PvPers, no problem... However, TEF's made it so that if I did see 'red dots' in a place, and figured either I wanted to try to attack, or not, with TEF's in place a battle could go from evenly matched to death by gang squad. I think TEF, by itself, turned a lot of people away from PvP in this game, and away from the game in general. I know there are a lot who may disagree, but I am one of those who left the game because I liked PvP, but not with TEF's in place. So seeing them go away will bring me back to the game, along with a few friends of mine. I say good job SOE! Not only on the TEF removal, but on the others things you are currently working on as well.

---

Creepoh wrote:

---

jphillips1868 wrote:

From your persepctive, there was lots of feedback, but you have access to the correspodent forums and we do not. I guess I have a problem with anyfundamental change, whetherI agree with it or not,of this magnitude togamebeing designed in secret without letting the players as a whole and not just the correspondents. It would be like never annoucning there will be a CURB, and then one day a couple weeks before it goes on test, we are going to implement this CURB and here is what it its all about.

---

This is a false analogy. This change is not the CU, it is not even the GCW revamp. This is much closer to the "Make the Game More Fun" patch coming out that increases inv limits, removes lot requirements for Mp ships, etc. Based on the history of feedback from players, they KNEW that the vast majority would welcome these changes.

Those in favor of TEF fall into two camps, I would guess: Imersion people and PKers. I would wager that of the group, PKers outnumber immersion folks 3 to 1 or more.

I just hope that this vocal minority does not overturn this great change to the game.

---

I don't believe it is a false analogy. Certainly, I would agree with you that the CURB is a much bigger patch. Currently, the Overt/Covert TEF system is the game mechanic for PvP and the GCW. But you have to admit this change is much big than the make the game fun changes you mention. Maybe there is a majority in favor of getting rid of the TEF, but clearly this is a very controversial change. And becauseAT LEAST asizable minorityis in favor of keeping the TEF.

---

jphillips1868 wrote:

---

Barb-Wire wrote:

---

i wouldnt worry too much about the negatives on this one. the only folks who hate this are the G-Tef griefers. and far as im concerned if they quit over this the game is better off without that source of grief.

---

While whether or not we should get rid of TEFs isnt' the topic of this thread, theadequency of the communciation on the change is theissue here.

But I disagree with you. In fact, i don't PvP very much and certainlyI am not a G-TEF griefer. I have no problem getting ridof the G-TEF. My reason for wanting tokeep theTEF is for the same reason it was in the game inthe first place, immersion into the SW world.Getting rid fo theTEF destroys immersion in the sense a faciton player sees a PvE player destroyinghis faction's NPCsand can't help.

Message Edited by jphillips1868 on 02-03-2005 01:12 PM

---

Immersion and Star Wars canon are not important anymore, jphillips. The only thing that matters is the fun factor of the vocal majority, because that is who SOE needs to please to keep the subscription money coming in.

Jedi are a great example. There should be no player Jedi for immersion and continuity. There are player Jedi because it's supposedly fun.

Look at JTL. There are no TEFs in space. I've seen an X-Wing playerand a TIE playerworking together to take out Pirate NPCs. That's not immersion shattering?

Armor everywhere. Buffs. Melee combat far overshadowing ranged combat.

Face it, Star Wars Galaxies is not "real" Star Wars between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back. It's just a Star Wars themed game. Last time I played this game, I was killing creatures. I had buffs, full armor, and basically let these creatures chew on me while I spammed pistol special moves over and over again. Eventually, the creature died. 4k xp. Rinse and repeat. What's Star Warsy about that, other than I think I had a Republic Blaster equipped at one point? Padmé used one in Phantom Menace. That's about the only parallel I can draw.

Blasting Stormtroopers on the other hand is Star Warsy. People want to do it without interference from jerk players (not all PvPers are jerks, but enough are that they can be very annoying.)

The ONLY compromise I see would be to allow PvE players to spawn instanced missions where they can blast NPCs without fear of retribution until their hearts are content. That way PvE'ers have their NPCs to shoot and PvP'ers don't lose the immersion of not being able to help their NPC brethren. TEFs wouldn't be necessary because PvE'ers wouldn't be interacting with faction NPCs outside of instanced areas.

I will say this, a point a guild member made last night. The thing with being a rebel covert, is that rebels look like everyone else. If the rebels went around saying "Lookie here, I'm a rebel," the Empire would've destroyed the rebellion quick and desisively. Rebels safety were their ability to act in secret, and when they were discovered is when they were in real danger. Being constantly PvE overt to Imperial NPC's as a rebel does not fall in line with continuity wise. In this way, the TEF system has been very effective.

And the only people I have mainly heard decrying the TEF system are Jedi who dislike being gang banged by gank squads of Imperials, many of the squads having their own Jedi who hunt other jedi for FRS exp. Those cases need to be removed, and I for one think Jedi should be removed from the GCW all together - mainly because the rebellion wasn't fought my Jedi, but by ordinary Imperial and Rebel citizens, but that is another topic.

As a more casual player, I'm glad to see that my two least-favorite things about the "old" system are being changed.

1: I won't be terrified to show up in, say, Coronet (unless it's currently being occupied by stormtroopers) just because I decided to shoot at the probot that made me dismount.

2: I will be terrified to go to Bestine unbuffed and unarmored. Unless I'm on leave.

It's not a GCW revamp, but it's a good starting step.

And for the people who are arguing RP/immersion -- I know this isn't you, but of the times I HAVE foolishly stepped into harm's way, I've received face-sitting and "pwn3d j00 n00b" messages around 50% of the time. Frankly, I think avoiding these squads will improve the immersion for me!

Message Edited by BobaFleck on 02-03-2005 01:39 PM

---

Nifty wrote:

Look at JTL. There are no TEFs in space. I've seen an X-Wing playerand a TIE playerworking together to take out Pirate NPCs. That's not immersion shattering?

I totally agree with you on that. Once I got into beta and learned they planned to handle it that way, I was totally turned off. I don't play JTL at all, other than to use the yacht to aviod the shuttles. And hearingof the sitution you described makes not ever want to play it.Now we will have a similar situatiuon in the ground game as well. 2 PvE players in faction armor, one rebel and one ST working together. That hadn't actually occured to me until you posted. I don't think I could stomach that. That may be the death nail for me. To me the Stars aspect of the game is the most important. With these changes it will be more like a Sci Fiy everquest.

The ONLY compromise I see would be to allow PvE players to spawn instanced missions where they can blast NPCs without fear of retribution until their hearts are content. That way PvE'ers have their NPCs to shoot and PvP'ers don't lose the immersion of not being able to help their NPC brethren. TEFs wouldn't be necessary because PvE'ers wouldn't be interacting with faction NPCs outside of instanced areas.

I think that is an acceptable comprimise. But probably SOE probably wouldn't do it because it would take too much work.

---

---

jphillips1868 wrote:

AndI am sure you read the many post that feel TEFs need to remain in the game as well, but I guess those weren't given as much weight.

---

Why in the world would you say that? Do you think the Devs just had some secret desire to remove TEFs? Why would they care one way or another, other than because it was something the vast majority of feedback suggested should be changed?

I can guarantee you that the Devs thouroughly considered the issues, both for and against removing the TEF, and decided that something needed to change. This is the change they decided, from a game design standpoint, would best address the issues raised by the player-base.

To say they didn't give "as much weight" to one side or the other is to make an assumption that just isn't rational. I'm sure they gave equal weight to all perspectives and made the game design decision based on all the information available.

That being said, the system is still in development and can (will?) be changed based on feedback here and after it gets published on test center. You want communication about the issues? Well, what do you think is happening right now?

your point about advanced feedback may be some what valid, but I would have to agree the number of people who want TEF's removed seem to out number the people who want it to stay in.
Besides, the whole argument about not being able to defend fellow NPC's is and always has been lame, JTL proves that point. It has no effect on you if I'm off killing ST or off killing Rebs, makes no diff to your game and game play. In space what can you do about me blowing up TIE fighters?
PvP is a choice, not the only way to have fun in the GCW. I think this change will keep/bring more people into the game. The people that would leave because of this change will be no where near the number of people who stay because of it. At the end of the day, that's what's it's really all about getting more players to stick around longer.

Message Edited by Monkey0000 on 02-03-2005 02:01 PM