Community Relations Archive

Thread: Question for Developers: Is using or creating Appearance mods out of EULA?

Wholfe
Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:10 pm
#14






Tiggs wrote:






gera wrote:







After Tiggs announcement about 3rd party programs, I believe it was about 3rd party macros. However,


Just because if we don't like your art department works, or developments art decisions, using our tools changing our appearance folders or musics or effects, is it against EULA?



Message Edited by gera on 09-01-200501:35 PM





The 3rd party progam post was not only for macros but all programs. Changing anything with game play is considered against our EULA or TOS agreement including changing art, music ect.









Well that's just silly. If it doesn't change game play, then it shouldn't matter. It's not that I do that, it's just that it's allowed in EQ to modify the interface.



Wholfe Lightningfist
Master Fencer, Master Creature Handler, and Master Pilot
EndrWign-Flurry
Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:14 pm
#15

What I want to know - what I've wanted to know fora long time - is this:


Do third party voice-over-net programs (e.g. Teamspeak)constitute an infraction of the TOS or EULA?



"That's what I expected. The only process you've mastered is the process of elimination, and the only reason you can do that is because you can do it in the toilet." - Ender Wiggin
nico2000
Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:36 pm
#16

If you mod your client so that ubese looks like storm trooper armor (because you want to wear storm trooper armor) and I am an armorsmith/smuggler who makes my income off of selling storm trooper armor and the faction points to bio-link them, you are definitely messing with my game play.



Neeker/Insper
Guild Elder
Titans of Olympus
gera
Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:44 pm
#17







nico2000 wrote:
If you mod your client so that ubese looks like storm trooper armor (because you want to wear storm trooper armor) and I am an armorsmith/smuggler who makes my income off of selling storm trooper armor and the faction points to bio-link them, you are definitely messing with my game play.





Noone is messing with "your" gameplay. Client side mods only and only on "clients", everyone else would see it as "ubese" and may be worst side, if anyone does that he will see everyone in stormtrooper armor. As a roleplayer, I never change Star Wars elements in game other than itself.


Can you craft Rebel ROTJ helmet with protections?


Game files belongs to me as a paying customer for this content and box of games. Musics from original scores belongs to me, I use it for my own client and not distributing. This is none of other peoples business as long as I use 3rd party programs"that can effect other's game play mechanics".

Message Edited by gera on 09-01-2005 05:47 PM




Armor removed from Jedi so they can be kited 'as designed' - Blixtev

UTech
Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:46 pm
#18






gera wrote:


Thank you for your reply.


As long as Star Wars Galaxies stays away from being Star Warsy, those modding will not give anything harm other than just play roleplay in our own world as long as we don't distribute copyrighted game material to any other people and appearances does not give us advantage in "game play".




The specific changes you detail will not give you advantage. But changing textures in the TRE files could very easily be used to give you a huge advantage in-game-- things suchas brightskins and wallhackshave been considered cheats in first person shooters such as Quake or UTfor years. This is no different. You're doinga wrong thing for the right reasons IMO.




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catassery and buttmonkeyism. We must be cautious.

gera
Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:49 pm
#19







UTech wrote:





gera wrote:


Thank you for your reply.


As long as Star Wars Galaxies stays away from being Star Warsy, those modding will not give anything harm other than just play roleplay in our own world as long as we don't distribute copyrighted game material to any other people and appearances does not give us advantage in "game play".




The specific changes you detail will not give you advantage. But changing textures in the TRE files could very easily be used to give you a huge advantage in-game-- things suchas brightskins and wallhackshave been considered cheats in first person shooters such as Quake or UTfor years. This is no different. You're doinga wrong thing for the right reasons IMO.







If you are familiar with game engine, you would notice it is much more different than Quake engine. You see whatever server sends you. If server thinks you can't see object, you can't... Not possible with SWG engine. Beside it is not a shooter game that your "reflexes" or knowing where your enemy is etc. important. /tar name gives you the same advantage.


Do I want to do these changes? I'm lazy enough. No, if SOE has supplied more Star Warsy feeling to us, having more graphical artists and developers, brainstormers who actually watched movie more than 1 times, those would not even be mentioned.


Was it too hard for art department to chop below googles of Rebel Ace pilot helmet to make it EXACTLY like movies?


Message Edited by gera on 09-01-2005 05:55 PM




Armor removed from Jedi so they can be kited 'as designed' - Blixtev

Illrigger
Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:05 pm
#20






KupyiLabe wrote:




Tiggs wrote:






gera wrote:







After Tiggs announcement about 3rd party programs, I believe it was about 3rd party macros. However,


Just because if we don't like your art department works, or developments art decisions, using our tools changing our appearance folders or musics or effects, is it against EULA?



Message Edited by gera on 09-01-2005 01:35 PM




The 3rd party progam post was not only for macros but all programs. Changing anything with game play is considered against our EULA or TOS agreement including changing art, music ect.









Would you mind specifying the clause in the EULA and TOS that forbid this? You may be on legally shaky ground here (IANAL).

EDIT: To be clear, modifying data files is not modifying software, and art/music changes may not fall clearly under that clause. I think SOE would be well-served to make sure that they are in fact prohibiting what they think they are before making these posts (normally, I am a complete dev supporter but this is ringing my FUD alarms).

Message Edited by KupyiLabe on 09-01-2005 07:11 PM






7. You acknowledge that you are bound by the terms and conditions of the Software License and Limited Warranty that accompanies the Game. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the software, artwork, music, and other components included in the accompanying CD-ROM (the "Software") or the Game, including, without limitation, in any character(s), item(s), coin(s) or other material or property. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software or to change game play. You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators; additionally, you may not engage in matchmaking for multi-player play over unauthorized networks. You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between client and server; you may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load (as determined by us) on our infrastructure. You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Account or any Game characters, items, credits or copyrighted material or any other intellectual property owned or controlled by us or our licensors.


This means that you can't use any tool not supplied with the game (even a text editor) to modify any file supplied with the Software (whether or not the change modifies gameplay), nor are you allowed to in any way modify the data sent fromor to the server. The "Software" is defined as any files included on the CD, or supplied by the "Game" (Defined by the name Star Wars Galaxies). Even if you get past the first clause (which you're not), the second one will get you because you are actively modifying how the datastream from the server is interpreted by the client and thereforedecrypting (to determine which packets say what graphics to call) andmodifying (by telling theclient to replace those packet calls with other calls)the data. You don't need to be a lawyer to figure out that you wouldn't last a second in court challenging this with what's been descibed.




ACCOUNTS CANCELLED 11-28-06, after 37 months, due to poor game design on the part of Helios
gera
Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:11 pm
#21







Illrigger wrote:





KupyiLabe wrote:
7. You acknowledge that you are bound by the terms and conditions of the Software License and Limited Warranty that accompanies the Game. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the software, artwork, music, and other components included in the accompanying CD-ROM (the "Software") or the Game, including, without limitation, in any character(s), item(s), coin(s) or other material or property. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software or to change game play. You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators; additionally, you may not engage in matchmaking for multi-player play over unauthorized networks. You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between client and server; you may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load (as determined by us) on our infrastructure. You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Account or any Game characters, items, credits or copyrighted material or any other intellectual property owned or controlled by us or our licensors.


This means that you can't use any tool not supplied with the game (even a text editor) to modify any file supplied with the Software (whether or not the change modifies gameplay), nor are you allowed to in any way modify the data sent fromor to the server. The "Software" is defined as any files included on the CD, or supplied by the "Game" (Defined by the name Star Wars Galaxies). Even if you get past the first clause (which you're not), the second one will get you because you are actively modifying how the datastream from the server is interpreted by the client and thereforedecrypting (to determine which packets say what graphics to call) andmodifying (by telling theclient to replace those packet calls with other calls)the data. You don't need to be a lawyer to figure out that you wouldn't last a second in court challenging this with what's been descibed.






Data is not being decrypted nor changed between server-client. My client thinks it is a ItemX and does whatever ItemX does, server thinks it is ItemX and whatever ItemX does. Just my graphics card does show ItemX as ItemY (itemY is a file which "I" created with no changes in games original files)


Foryellow text: there is no determining which packet what graphics to call. We do not change game files, we simply add new files. Game files are stored in TRE files and they remain as they are. If creating new files under your own harddisk is modifying game executables, interesting analogy.


Hope you understood how modding working.

Message Edited by gera on 09-01-2005 06:25 PM




Armor removed from Jedi so they can be kited 'as designed' - Blixtev

Barb-Wire
Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:35 pm
#22

how bout enforcing some justice on the folks exploiting the flaws in the combat command queues??



Created Account July 2003 - Canceled account Nov 2005. The NGE made me do it.
Barb Wire
Former Dark Force Wielder
Ex-Imperial Navy
Glzmo
Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:34 pm
#23


Tiggs wrote:


gera wrote:
After Tiggs announcement about 3rd party programs, I believe it was about 3rd party macros. However,
Just because if we don't like your art department works, or developments art decisions, using our tools changing our appearance folders or musics or effects, is it against EULA?

Message Edited by gera on 09-01-2005 01:35 PM


The 3rd party progam post was not only for macros but all programs. Changing anything with game play is considered against our EULA or TOS agreement including changing art, music ect.






So using 3rd party (non-Sony) programs like Windows is illegal now, too? Has Sony online entertainment released an OS or are we supposed to play SWG on a Sony PlayStation instead?

Message Edited by Glzmo on 09-02-2005 04:35 AM



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Helfarch
Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:35 pm
#24

Until they clean up all the speed hacking credit farmers SOE can lay off the people just trying to make the game a bit more enjoyable visual/auraly. By installing the game you technicallyviolate the EULA.



Helfarch Corvidae
-Shadow Corps-


Commando Extraordinaire
-Sioned-
Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:30 pm
#25

Guys that statement is a general statement in most EULA of most games. But since you dont change the data send to SOE there is no evidence of it. But its a fact that you cant whine about client crashes if you use such mods. If you want to use them just be aware that you break the EULA. In my eyes there is atm no chance that SOE will ever notice such mods. Also i wouldnt understand if they start to implement something to pursue such mods - i think there are other things to fix first.
Narut0
Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:57 am
#26

the EULA says no 3rd party programs atall :/ best turn off my antivirus, firewall, MSN, IRC, Teamspeak / TS server, windows, my drivers, umm WOOPS im in game and useing FIREFOX OMG IM A SPOILTER.

hang about hardwear/Software? if i have a program for my hardware is that 3rd party program against EULA, more so its a software program for my mouse, to bind keys to 4th 5th mouse buttons also activate an AUTOFIRE opption, (good for saberlock power struggels in JK2 & jka)

winamp can i play MP3s while playing SWG ?
Teamspeak is a know exploit, people use it to issue information about SWG sploits and also tactical stuff OMG what horrors.

EULA needs to specify what is a no-no and whats accseptable. i mean FRAPS is borderline cos it records in game stuff.

what about TEAMSPEAK overlay.
its a 3rd party DIRECTX program for most video games and places a text layer over any DirectX application showing teamspeak server info IE if someones talking it shows a name up if someone sends a tell you see it on your screen in game.

is this also agains EULA?
fraps works the same way but in reverce by taking images out of the game.

its hard to tell whats ok to use n whats not.

asfar as i see it you can't use MACRO software, anything that records mouse/keyboard movement and keystrokes. (IE creating a bot)
you cant add files to your SWG root directory that may inflict some sort of cheat. I mean a typical exsample would be to change the model of huge mob creatures like krayt dragons and rancors in to smaller creatures so you can see what your doing. (hypfetical btw)

maybe change your COMPOSIT armor into full madolorian armor so you can submit a SOTD to starwarsgalaxies.com and gain some recognision. (i bet this has been done too)

remove or edit sound files.
isn't windows 3rd party?
i mean you need windows to run SWG but in fact running SWG is in breach of EULA cos of this


OH last note, Removed Force Run tails: I didnt see any comet behind Obi-wan & Qui-gon Jinn while they force running.

a shaddow trail would of been more realistic like a Blur of color behind. now that would look more like obi-wan & qui-gon

Message Edited by Narut0 on 09-02-2005 11:00 AM



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