Community Relations Archive
Thread: Question for Developers: Is using or creating Appearance mods out of EULA?
Illrigger wrote:
KupyiLabe wrote:
Tiggs wrote:
gera wrote:
After Tiggs announcement about 3rd party programs, I believe it was about 3rd party macros. However,
Just because if we don't like your art department works, or developments art decisions, using our tools changing our appearance folders or musics or effects, is it against EULA?
Message Edited by gera on 09-01-2005 01:35 PM
The 3rd party progam post was not only for macros but all programs. Changing anything with game play is considered against our EULA or TOS agreement including changing art, music ect.
Would you mind specifying the clause in the EULA and TOS that forbid this? You may be on legally shaky ground here (IANAL).
EDIT: To be clear, modifying data files is not modifying software, and art/music changes may not fall clearly under that clause. I think SOE would be well-served to make sure that they are in fact prohibiting what they think they are before making these posts (normally, I am a complete dev supporter but this is ringing my FUD alarms).
Message Edited by KupyiLabe on 09-01-2005 07:11 PM
7. You acknowledge that you are bound by the terms and conditions of the Software License and Limited Warranty that accompanies the Game. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the software, artwork, music, and other components included in the accompanying CD-ROM (the "Software") or the Game, including, without limitation, in any character(s), item(s), coin(s) or other material or property. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software or to change game play. You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators; additionally, you may not engage in matchmaking for multi-player play over unauthorized networks. You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between client and server; you may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load (as determined by us) on our infrastructure. You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Account or any Game characters, items, credits or copyrighted material or any other intellectual property owned or controlled by us or our licensors.
This means that you can't use any tool not supplied with the game (even a text editor) to modify any file supplied with the Software (whether or not the change modifies gameplay), nor are you allowed to in any way modify the data sent fromor to the server. The "Software" is defined as any files included on the CD, or supplied by the "Game" (Defined by the name Star Wars Galaxies). Even if you get past the first clause (which you're not), the second one will get you because you are actively modifying how the datastream from the server is interpreted by the client and thereforedecrypting (to determine which packets say what graphics to call) andmodifying (by telling theclient to replace those packet calls with other calls)the data. You don't need to be a lawyer to figure out that you wouldn't last a second in court challenging this with what's been descibed.
Hold on one damn moment....!!! Has anyone considered that if changing the local files constitutes an infringement, then the one line ini file change is illegal and therefore running multiple accounts (paid for) on one machine is also illegal??? How many folks are illegal then?
Tiggs, can you please answer this one ma'am cos I think a few thousand users and god knows how many accounts are effected.
Jagg wrote:
Hold on one damn moment....!!! Has anyone considered that if changing the local files constitutes an infringement, then the one line ini file change is illegal and therefore running multiple accounts (paid for) on one machine is also illegal??? How many folks are illegal then?
Tiggs, can you please answer this one ma'am cos I think a few thousand users and god knows how many accounts are effected.
Message Edited by JediMelvis137 on 09-02-2005 08:28 AM
Tiggs wrote:
gera wrote:
After Tiggs announcement about 3rd party programs, I believe it was about 3rd party macros. However,
Just because if we don't like your art department works, or developments art decisions, using our tools changing our appearance folders or musics or effects, is it against EULA?
Message Edited by gera on 09-01-2005 01:35 PM
The 3rd party progam post was not only for macros but all programs. Changing anything with game play is considered against our EULA or TOS agreement including changing art, music ect.
But in fact for modding you are not using a 3rd Party program - it's a hidden feature of the SWG client itself.
would it be against the EULA or TOS to turn the ingame music sound right down and then use a program such as winamp to play CD's and mp3's??
Yes! Pure evil. You should have to put up with stale sound and music like the rest of the people!
Gawzeera wrote:
would it be against the EULA or TOS to turn the ingame music sound right down and then use a program such as winamp to play CD's and mp3's??
Just because you cannot get caught does not make it right. You basically give your word you will follow the EULA and ToS everytime you play the game. If your word is so worthless you will go against it over such a trivial thing that that is just sad.
Leana_Txorana wrote:
Hah...have fun finding who uses them
Just because you cannot get caught does not make it right. You basically give your word you will follow the EULA and ToS everytime you play the game. If your word is so worthless you will go against it over such a trivial thing that that is just sad.
Correct and it is possible to catch people who do this. Place check sums into the code on the client and check them each time the game loads. if the check sum is out - fail to allow them to enter or mark them as an exploiter for future reference.
Ackehece wrote:
Leana_Txorana wrote:
Hah...have fun finding who uses them
Just because you cannot get caught does not make it right. You basically give your word you will follow the EULA and ToS everytime you play the game. If your word is so worthless you will go against it over such a trivial thing that that is just sad.
Correct and it is possible to catch people who do this. Place check sums into the code on the client and check them each time the game loads. if the check sum is out - fail to allow them to enter or mark them as an exploiter for future reference.
Ofcourse, but they would do this for people who looted exploited NPC weapons, who were using speed hack, who were using 3rd party macros inside caves, who were selling their chars on eBay and items, those who were selling in-game items and credits for real money, who were using cool-down timer override exploit....
They can do a lot of things but it does not suprise me when every other exploit which effects "other players" remains unpunished and appearance change would. That's SOE. And no, when I press Accept button depending on my region (Europe) I do not have a line telling me newly created files without "modify" real in-game files still remaining in TRE files.
gera wrote:
Game files belongs to me as a paying customer for this content and box of games. Musics from original scores belongs to me, I use it for my own client and not distributing. This is none of other peoples business as long as I use 3rd party programs "that can effect other's game play mechanics".Message Edited by gera on 09-01-2005 05:47 PM
Ummmm... No. You don't own the files, nor do you own the music you think you do. In fact, ripping a copy of the soundtracks was probably a violation of law. You own a license to use them. You don't own a single piece of the softeare on your computer, you own a "license." Recognize that word? As in "license key" as in what you have to have for Windows, etc.
Necesito wrote:
gera wrote:
Game files belongs to me as a paying customer for this content and box of games. Musics from original scores belongs to me, I use it for my own client and not distributing. This is none of other peoples business as long as I use 3rd party programs "that can effect other's game play mechanics".Message Edited by gera on 09-01-2005 05:47 PM
Ummmm... No. You don't own the files, nor do you own the music you think you do. In fact, ripping a copy of the soundtracks was probably a violation of law. You own a license to use them. You don't own a single piece of the softeare on your computer, you own a "license." Recognize that word? As in "license key" as in what you have to have for Windows, etc.
Mmm, you may be right in the specific case of SOE software, but I own a ton of the software that I use -- being that I primarily use Free and open source software (Windows is just a gaming platform for me). And ripping a copy of soundtracks for your own use, on equipment you own, is typically covered under existing case law and fair use rights. If he was sharing those music or software files with others, or acquiring the files without a license, then he would be in trouble. To be clear, I don't own my FOSS software in the strictest sense of the term, but I can do what I like with it without fear of retribution as long as I don't try to take away someone else's rights.
I should also note that it's generally accepted that most EULAs would not, on the whole, stand up in court. Just because someone specifies it, doesn't mean it's actually something you can give away. I am not a lawyer, but remember that just because the opposing side tells you something (and if SOE tries to get someone in trouble for creating new files on their computer that SOE's software chooses to read first, then they will indeed become the opposing side), that doesn't necessarily make it true. This doesn't mean the entire EULA is invalid, but that certain common restrictions are.
I believe in following the law, including copyright law, even when it's nonsensical, but not everything SOE claims is against the law or against their agreement actually is. If it were that easy, we wouldn't need lawyers and courts. And I also believe that SOE should focus its collective attention on people causing problems for others. When they act on harassment claims and bad naming promptly, and deal with credit sellers and such, then they will have established good faith in these matters.
I like SWG, and I like the game -- I support the devs -- but bad for customers is bad for business. And there are moral principles involved, as well. Why shouldn't I have the right to listen to music of my choosing when I'm playing SWG? Why shouldn't someone have the ability to reskin models on their own experience? If it's not interfering with someone else's play experience, such as by giving an unfair advantage, then all it does is increase my enjoyment of the game and thus make it more likely I'll continue to be a customer. Read The Cluetrain Manifesto to see what I mean.
As Charles Dickens wrote, "If the law supposes that, the law is an ass." If the law supposes that I can't change my copy without distributing it or causing any harm to anyone, includingt the copyright holder, then, indeed, that's a bad situation. I certainly hope that is not SOE's intention, as I enjoy the product and I think that they're doing a pretty good job.
If someone from SOE has a problem with this, or wants to discuss this further, please feel free to contact me.
Message Edited by KupyiLabe on 09-07-2005 09:47 PM