Commando Archive

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Tanks wrote:

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DocSavag wrote:


...however it makes no sense for someone with absolutely no rifle xp to be able to pick up a weapon that I use at novice rifle and use it to level Rifle I-IV in marksman. This system is worse than the problem you were trying to fix.

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However, he will shoot it slower and less accurately than you do. Also, while leveling Rifle I-IV he would be fighting level 54 mobs in order to get any experience. I think you would level much faster.

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Is that always the case?

This whole thing is going to create tremendous problems that weren't in the game before... in this case specifically one where a double master may have enough mods and a high enough CL to be able to take a 3rd professions weapon (in out 'old' terms) and be better then a master at that profession.

its a whole new game of FOTM as people decide which specials they want then build tempaltes around that.

As an example with the current numbers (realizing high probability of change) a Fencer/Swords template:

+210 accuracy (+145 general melee acc +65 unarmed accuracy)
+75 speed (+45 geneal melee speed +30 unarmed speed)

Take that build and then fight unarmed

Now compare with a master teras kasi:

+145 accuracy ( +70 General Melee Accuracy +75 unarmed accuracy)
+90 speed ( +25 general Melee Speed +65 unamred speed)

And yes, I realize the tkm would have a pile of +damage mods in this case, but the issue stands with other profs like pike/swords and a fencing wep vs. a fencer

And then look at the playstyle "balance" issues with a 2 master tempalte with 1 ranged and 1 melee prof and being able to cover all combat styles inside the one build.

So many headaches.

It also creates a tremendous "imbalance" (to use a 4 letter word arund here lately) for the newfound combat professions like Smuggler, Ranger & Squad Leader in terms of revamp love and non combat skillsets. How can these professions be "balanced" inside of the skillpoint system - and in the hopefully near future get a good deal more content in the forever postponed revamps - when they all carry the same weight already for CL bonuses, certs, defense mods, health, etc. etc. as a profession that has nothign but combat "content" like pistoleer?

EDIT: fixed my math.. hey its late

Message Edited by Ragnaat on 04-14-2005 02:44 AM

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RankorCity wrote:

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Tanks wrote:

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RankorCity wrote:

Thats not the point.

The point is we have completely lost any identity.

We are now the (other) profession upgrade profession...

• Need more speed? Try Commando


• Need more defenses? Try Commando


• Need more accuracy? Try Commando

1) OR Try BH. That has not changed regardless of the Weapon certs.

• Need a different weapon? Go by your local WS, and pick one up. You dont even need a cert for it as long as you have a high enough CL! woOT!

2) In order to be competitive people will want the weapon with the highest DPS. That is the Master level weapon. 3) Also, as I said before if you do not have the profession skill mods that weapon is only good for leveling, which is the devs intent. Go ahead and run the numbers and you will see that just picking up a weapon is not going to help you with the end game unless you have the mods. 4) And, again you need the master level weapons for the end game.

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1) I dont care about BH. I care about Commando. Feed that line to someone else. You guys KEPT your weapon certificates (I could be wrong, as I said - I DONT CARE ABOUT BH)

2) If you want X profession master level weapon THEN GO SPEND THE SKILL POINTS TO GET IT.

3) THAT IS NOT THE POINT

4) See number 2

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/slaps Rankorcity into oblivian

ya know he was talking about all weapons not just ours ya ding bat

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CapnKate wrote: (snipped for brevity)
2. Two days ago, it seemed everyone and their brother were complaining how hard it was to level a new profession once you were in an elite. They don't want to just drop the level system they've got. I don't blame them.

I can blame them. The moment we caught on that they were trying to force a level based combat system into a skill based game, many of us began predicting things exactly like this would happen. They refused to listen and now, one day closer to launch date things are more FUBAR than they've ever been. Remember, some of us have actually got some development and programming expereince under our belts and others (like me) have been admins in other games and we knew exactly what a train wreck this would turn into. It's an unworkable solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The problem of soloing high end MObs is with uber buffs and armor, not with MOB levels. So, rather than fix the obvious problem they break both wahts been fixed and also their promise to us that our weapons would what define us. Whats next, a reductionto just 3 classes? I can see it now. Choose to be a ranged fighter, a melee fighter or a crafter at creation, level up and use every skill in your class. We're just one step away from thatwith this change,And what makes it so incredibly frustatrating is not a whit of this is necessary. Keep all the other great changes and drop the level based combat idea. A week ago I was completely pumped for the CU. Now I'm just incredibly angry.

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Olsson wrote:

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CapnKate wrote: (snipped for brevity)
2. Two days ago, it seemed everyone and their brother were complaining how hard it was to level a new profession once you were in an elite. They don't want to just drop the level system they've got. I don't blame them.

I can blame them. The moment we caught on that they were trying to force a level based combat system into a skill based game, many of us began predicting things exactly like this would happen. They refused to listen and now, one day closer to launch date things are more FUBAR than they've ever been. Remember, some of us have actually got some development and programming expereince under our belts and others (like me) have been admins in other games and we knew exactly what a train wreck this would turn into. It's an unworkable solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The problem of soloing high end MObs is with uber buffs and armor, not with MOB levels. So, rather than fix the obvious problem they break both wahts been fixed and also their promise to us that our weapons would what define us. Whats next, a reduction to just 3 classes? I can see it now. Choose to be a ranged fighter, a melee fighter or a crafter at creation, level up and use every skill in your class. We're just one step away from that with this change, And what makes it so incredibly frustatrating is not a whit of this is necessary. Keep all the other great changes and drop the level based combat idea. A week ago I was completely pumped for the CU. Now I'm just incredibly angry.

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Snipping for brevity also, unfortunately, removes the point I was making and re-aims it at an aside I made in the process. You're free to disagree with the level system. I, personally, don't have a problem with it, either as a player or as a game designer and ex-game admin. But if you do, that's fine. Make your case to that end as you wish-- it's really immaterial to the statement I was making which is this: If you complain about a particular issue-- in this case, the levelling of a second profession-- and they make an attempt to fix it, then it is simply WRONG to then rake them over coals for it before you've had a chance to really work with it, which is exactly what some people were doing. If your problem *isn't* with their fix to the complaint, but with the system the complaint grew out of, then deal with that. If the complaint that you can't level one profession and then start another was supposed to be a reason to remove the level system(as it seems it was for many), then sorry, it honestly was just a poor tactic to take. They adressed the specific complaint people made, and if that wasn't what people wanted, that's certainly not their fault. If that wasn't what people were aiming for, then it wasn't a very well-made complaint.

As for what to do to make them hear? Figure out what, specifically, you want. If you didn't like how the level system meant that it was hard to level a new prof, but your real beef is with the level system as a whole, then the latter is what you want and not the layer atop it. Address that. Be respectful. Remember that they're human, too; they do a lot of hard work and don't want to see it trashed any more than you would. It's hard to set aside an idea you really think works. You're human, too. It's hard to set aside an idea you really think doesn't work. Keep that in mind. Be polite, be reasoned. Give reasons you think it doesn't work or is otherwise a bad idea. Offer solutions. Understand that you may be told "we want to try it this way", and that's the way it is. Be flexible, be willing to compromise the ideal of what you, personally want. realize that you really may not represent a majority opinion, even if it looks like you do. Don't resort to swearing, threats, or doomsday predictions. Ultimately such things *will* only hurt your cause. I've been through a number of testing phases, both with the SWG devs and other teams, and the changes that get made are almost always campaigned for by people that act in this manner. Not ONCE have I seen extreme displays result in a design decision being changed. More commonly, they result in whatever good points a person makes being thrown out with the rest, and that helps precisely noone, least of all yourself.

Message Edited by CapnKate on 04-14-2005 05:35 AM

The devs didn't say that all weapon certifications will be decided by level and nothing else...some weapons may well require Novice Carbineer and lvl 56.

I like that, as if I want (say) a DXR-6 Carbine (currently certed to O 3/0/0/0 Carbineer), perhaps I hcan get it by going 0/0/3/0 instead. I'd still have to be a carbineer, but I'd have more flexibility in getting weapons I want.

Other weapons might be certed to specific skill boxes, like the Rocket Launcher or flamethrower.

The system does allow them to have a few decent, but "generic" weapons and a high level combat professional can pick up while training. As Tanks said, very few people will pick up a weapon that they are only passably good with for PvP or general purposes...but it gives the option.

So long as some weapons (I would say even "most" weapons) remain "signature" weapons, that doesn't bother me.

I'm far more concerned about the skill allocation being fair to the hybrid professions than this....at least until the devs propose something more concrete.

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Khog wrote:

For crying out loud - they just don't listen. Not even when 70% of their testers consistently say the new level based system is crud.

If the weapon system is as qualified in this thread then that would seem ok.

If the re-spec is as stated then that stinks, what about the crafting professions they mucked up and? and where they removed SP requirements from novice - we have no way to reallocate them to elite - that screws a number of professions, not least commando.

What the hell do we have to do to get them to listen?

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Ohetie wrote:
i'm sure it all will get fixed.

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As a smuggler, i wish you joy of your optimism.

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CapnKate wrote:

3. Finally... I find the manner in which this feedback is given apalling.

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Message Edited by uselessn00b on 04-15-2005 09:38 AM

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Olsson wrote:

Let's take it from the top.

CapnKate, you ask if it's the weapon that differentiates a class. In the case of Commandos, absolutely. When they took all specials out of our skill tree they specifically said it was because our weapons would be what defined us. Today they've given every single one of our weapons to everyone else, even people who don't have a single skill box in Commando. Currently it looks like there will actually be other combinations of master professions who will be able to be more effective than a Master Commando with some of our weapons because of general ranged mods so there goes the proficency theory as well. They have completely stripped us of our identity after getting our hopes up that we would be fixed after being broken for every single day since launch. Let me say that again. Our profession has been broken since launch and instead of fixing us, they have destroyed the last thing that made us Commandos. They've wiped us out as a distinct profession. Maybe you're unaware that 2 days before launch years ago, on the beta test, they introduced massive changes that Commandos begged them not to implement because it would kill our profession. Some of the things they broke with that are still broken today. Now that exact same nightmare it replaying all over again. Maybe you didn't know we already went through months of having a pistol launcher that didn't give HW experience. It was fixed, now it's broken a second time. How many times are you allowed tomake the same mistake over and over until someone starts to question your competence?There shouldn't be an issue of which Commando weapons should be for general use because not a single one of them should ever be touched by any who hasn't earned the right to carry them by grinding through the absolutely hellish profession thatCommando has been for last 2+ years. If devs are scared to talk to players maybe it's because devs insist on ignoring us when we tell them things are broken and pushing bad game design down out throats until we get to the point we simply cannot stand any more ill treatment from them.

Go back and look at some of my posts prior to last week.I was a huge supporter of the devs, the concept behind the CU and the changes we were told we had coming. But after tonight I am absolutely furious that they have destroyed the profession I've stuck with for so long because they refuse to admit they are trying to push a combat system that doesn't fit the character system of this game. They've been told and told and told and told in logical, respectful, and extremely well thought out posts exactly why level based combat and skill based character don't mix and instead of listeneing they tell us we don't know what we're talking about and then break the only thing that was working to begin with and then insult us on top of itby telling us it will be more "Fun" and "Tactical"

We've been very specific what we want.

We want to be individuals.

We want our profession to actually function.

We want MOBs who hit person A for 50 points to hit person B for 50 points as well, not 500 simply because person B didn't get the right skill box.

We want our weapons back.

We want to test the new changes instead of waiting for days for them to fix the same problems they already fixed months or even years before.

We want the Devs to stop lying to us.

We want the option to use the old icons if we don't like the the cartoon icons.

We want it to be Star Wars. Not EQ in space.

For those of us in a guild with more than 8 people we want to groups with as many of them as we want.

We want crafters to be able to gather resources without having to pay bodyguards because the inflation of prices combined with a lowered ability make money will destroy the economy.

But more than anything we want them to realize trying to force fit a level based combat system into skill based character game is whats creating all the anger, animosity and contnetion and we want them to scrap it.

CU =good. Level based combat = bad

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QFE!

I was there you know, when they broke Commando in beta.

Because of that, I kept playing other professions, up till the first commando fix..And stayed commando since.

I've seen all the fixes, upgrades and whatnot they called it for the commandos, and seen it all go down as a broken profession since beta.

We have been nice, for a long time, devs dare thread here, well, not Thunderheart, but the others dare...But this?

*shakes head and walks out*