Commando Archive
Thread: Dont mean to pick on dablers but really, I think the flame skill mods should be spread out.
And Tac I know you argued your point but you made no sense in it, if player A with a 2 second wait time fought player B with a 6 second wait time, player A would get 3 shots off before player B got his second off, guess who would win?"
You are player A. Say you are grenadeer 4, ,your special shoots once every 10 seconds.
im player B, master. say mine shoots once every 4 seconds.
By shooting twice in the amount of time you shoot once I should win right? Wrong.
You shoot, I shoot, we will both either be incapp'd by the initial damage if we arent buffed or have high heat resist armor, or we will both be incap'd by the fire dot, even though I manage to kill you first by torching you a 2nd time while your timer is still on. It doesnt matter, we are both DOT'd. We will both die.
Accuracy is something that you cant touch either, because like speed, its something that if changed will severely hurt those going up the commando tree to master as well as any that do choose to dabble in the dot-less grenadeer tree to get the frontloaded damage.
However, in that same fight, with grenadeer not having the dot, the master will have a marked advantage over the non-master. Not only because he shoots twice (which in the game itself its only like a 2 second differencee between master and grenadeer4, if both use = spd flamers) but because the grenadeer does not have the fire-and-forget DOT damage.
The commando weapons are not like other proffession's. Our weapons are front-loaded damage firepower. We put in ONE shot what other proffessions put in 10 shots. But we then wait those 10 seconds without shooting. That a pistoleer will outdamage the commando in those 10 seconds? Sure. But he's spamming specials in EVERY shot, losing his own HAM, needing those 10 seconds to do the damage and always at risk of not doing the same damage because he has 10 shots he can miss.. while we are binary.. hit or no hit. In reality we have better odds than they do to hit.
and you cant deny that 1-shotting people with JUST the initial damage, when they are not wearing armor is something that no pistoleer or rifleman or carbineer will EVER do. Nor any melee class.
box2= flamecone1 with no dot (same damage as single1 , aoe)
box3= flamesingle2 with no dot (5k to 10k damage special damage)
box4= flamecone2 with no dot (same as single2, aoe)
Master Box: Flamesingle3 and Flamecone3 (same as single2 and cone2 NOW in the game).
Commandos just need grenades fixed and HAR fixed.
Learn how to use your skills.
Learn where to spend your points wisely.
This game takes thought, not thoughtless clone zerging with your FT in hand.
Its not a class based game. Get over it.
If your main way of damage is commando, be sure to PvP in a group.
commando is a one trick pony because the other weapons are pointless.
and SOE cant up the damage of the other weapons because then we'd be truly overpowered. no, its easier for them to just nerf the hell out of the flamethrower to a point where using grenades and hpbc's and even the acid rifle will look like a good idea.
and to think that the whole problem with the flamer is the dot. if moved to master you will see an instant, overnight drop of powermonger dabblers. just like ch's.
I have to agree.. tho flame 4 is really where the power first was truly felt. maybe not move the dots but put flamestrike 2 as master also? It is one of two best attacks for a commando with a flamer.
I guess what I am wondering is why people taking up commando at all unless they want money? not like a dabbler in commando can hit crap with flamethrower any way so many can own a commando in PvP they HAVE to be using it in missons
Want to know a secret?
The best way to use a FT is on a KDed opponent.
Pick up pistoleer/smuggler to exploit that to your full advantage.
Tac, you've not answered my question yet. I thinkI know why. It's because you haven't fought an MCH since the last patch, isn't it?
MCHs made the same arguments as you. Their classed didn't get fixed, it got nerfed to hell, becuase of people who think like you. People are leaving that class in droves. Since you aren't one anymore, I guess you don't realize it.
You aren't gonna get your class fixed, you are gonna get it nerfed if you don't cool it.
So, once again, I ask - Have you fought an MCH since the past and if so, has he or she beat you. And who did it?
I want facts here, not your unsupported opinions about MCH. The only thing Master Creature Handlers get now is handled.
tacwraith wrote:
"If you wanna beef up the master commando and make it more usefull then grenadeers, beef up the speed. It has been proven in game that the absalute best way to increase damage output is to increase your fireing speed.
And Tac I know you argued your point but you made no sense in it, if player A with a 2 second wait time fought player B with a 6 second wait time, player A would get 3 shots off before player B got his second off, guess who would win?"
You are player A. Say you are grenadeer 4, ,your special shoots once every 10 seconds.
im player B, master. say mine shoots once every 4 seconds.
By shooting twice in the amount of time you shoot once I should win right? Wrong.
You shoot, I shoot, we will both either be incapp'd by the initial damage if we arent buffed or have high heat resist armor, or we will both be incap'd by the fire dot, even though I manage to kill you first by torching you a 2nd time while your timer is still on. It doesnt matter, we are both DOT'd. We will both die.
Accuracy is something that you cant touch either, because like speed, its something that if changed will severely hurt those going up the commando tree to master as well as any that do choose to dabble in the dot-less grenadeer tree to get the frontloaded damage.
However, in that same fight, with grenadeer not having the dot, the master will have a marked advantage over the non-master. Not only because he shoots twice (which in the game itself its only like a 2 second differencee between master and grenadeer4, if both use = spd flamers) but because the grenadeer does not have the fire-and-forget DOT damage.
The commando weapons are not like other proffession's. Our weapons are front-loaded damage firepower. We put in ONE shot what other proffessions put in 10 shots. But we then wait those 10 seconds without shooting. That a pistoleer will outdamage the commando in those 10 seconds? Sure. But he's spamming specials in EVERY shot, losing his own HAM, needing those 10 seconds to do the damage and always at risk of not doing the same damage because he has 10 shots he can miss.. while we are binary.. hit or no hit. In reality we have better odds than they do to hit.
and you cant deny that 1-shotting people with JUST the initial damage, when they are not wearing armor is something that no pistoleer or rifleman or carbineer will EVER do. Nor any melee class.
Tac your not considering everything. Accuracy and speedplays a part because the master will have a better chance of hitting then the dabbler, the dabbler misses you hit hes dead, you both miss you fire the second shot faster, hes dead, you miss he hits you MIGHT die from the initial hit, BUT if you dont you have at LEAST 10 seconds before the fire dot ticsthe first tic (dot only hits health, the special could hit any 1 of the 3 ham bars) and that gives you time to shoot and ensure your avenged (I've never missed twice in a row since I became master) by killing him first shot, or less attractive way of setting him on fire. No scenario has just 1 outcome, you have to look at all possibilitys. And accuracy and speed play a huge part in this scenario as I've explained.
You throw in buffs and armor and those tiny advantages became far more obvious. Truth is most everyone in pvp is armored and buffed now, people are getting smarter especially since the commando's flamethrower craze started. Increase the speed and accuracy of the master with flamethrower and you'll find a big diffrence, just trust me on that one.
Also yes riflemen were known to 1shot people in pvp before, I believe they still can if their target was armorless and mind-buff less. I have a rifleman friend who fires for 3k damage in pve every second, hes a master and I don't doubt he can 1 shot someone's mind pool easily. And meleers? They do MASSIVE damage in pvp, have you ever fought one? They don't often use their heavy hitting weapons because the ham costs for the vibros can be killer, by my 4th box of polearms in the brawler tree,I washitting critters for 3k damage with my hardest special, and a vibrolongaxe, a pikeman could probably kill in pvp, as long as were talking about armorless targets.
Also master pistoleer/pistol tree of BH. Enough said (1k damage in pvp per second with a 99.9% accuracy, focused in mind, thats 1shot kill no matter how you slice it).
All of you should keep in mind the purpose of the entire flamethrower tree. It is a single tree SPECIALIZEING in 1 specific weapon. The only other class that has this specilized tree set-up is the BH. NO other class has a specific weapon in it and only has 1 tree supporting it.
The reason the CH trick won't work with the commando (spreading skills out) is because the CH set-up is entirely diffrent, its not 1 weapon or a series of weapons or even new ways of useing old weapons. Its the control of creatures, which don't make the greatest weapons (or didn't), people were useing the things to tank for them and therefore makeing it way to easy to solo stuff. It MIGHT have been nerfed dabbler wise but it was seriously buffed from the BE's new abilitys. THIS is how I think classes should be balanced, by SUPPORTING eachother, not by killing eachother. Tac was right about the CH's old pets and about the way the old melee pets go down now but the new BE pets don't. I just got done slaughtering a MCH's rancor and another's mauler without breaking a sweat, quite litterally slaughtering them. These things went down in 2 seconds flat, no wonder CH's think they were nerfed. However my guild happens to have a master BE/Master CH, and the stuff she has made (includeing a red con DURNI!, red con WITH my flamethrower equipped! A DURNI! A LESS THEN KNEE HIGH BUNNY! NOT EVEN CRAZED!) would make any MCH happy. I'm going to get a cl 8 war kitty with poison myself, take THAT evil rancor masters!
But if were going to nerf everything that gives us the ability to solo most anything then novice medics had better get ready for that bat, I've soloed red con critters with a pistol and nothing beyond marksman tree just by healing myself and shooting at it with a bleed shot. Also better get ready to have a nerf to armor, a nerf to bleeds and other DOTs, a nerf to combat medics, a nerf to nearly every special ability of every proffession.
Back to point, the flamethrower tree is the study of the flamethrower specifically. Just as the acid tree is to the acid rifle and the HWs tree to the HWs. These trees are meant specifically for these weapons and if you spread flamethrower all over the proffession then you would have to spread everything else all over the proffession, change all the names so its just "commando box A-D/1-4" and basically turn it into a game of battleships. CH had basically 2 skill mods that people wanted, and they got those 2 mods and ignored the other half of the proffession (which was tameing and training the creatures) after all they could just BUY creatures from OTHER creature handlers and they were all set. People aren't ignoreing anything about the flamethrower, they use a weapon they have access to and I am perfectly fine with that. I want the other weapons to be more usefull (and a bit more thought put into the acid rifle, and its implementation, we dont need a DOTless twin of the flamethrower). If they were more usefull then people wouldn't all be flamethrower nuts (especially if grenades were extended in range to 40-62m and had various status effects, they would become GREAT left hand weapons) If HWs were fixxed so they were reloadable containers that could only be fired as a special but could be equiped then they would be great SUPPORT weapons (which the name implys, Heavy Support Weapons).
Well if we must change something about the flamethrower itself, how about removeing the WOUNDS from the dot from flamesingle 1 and flamecone 1? Tac says the dot is what kills people but in reality its the wounds, most intelligent soldiers can heal themselves easily even with that large of a dot tic, but the wounds PREVENT them from healing the damage back, thus healing just means your entire bar will black out. But really, this wouldnt change much in terms of the speed of leveling commandos.
In truth nothing would, commando takes twice the skill points butnot theexperience, as aposed to the pistol exp or carbine or rifle exp. Its just a really hard class to get to. The best way to increase leveling time is probably to increase the required exp in the boxes where heavy weapons exp is required, and evening them out (175k for the first boxes, 250k for the second, so on) to match the req's for the 1 weapon specialists. THEN and only THEN can commandos boast haveing the hardest class to master. Granted people would still bitch like mother-in-laws but at least we would have that much more reason to tell them to stuff it.
Honestly I suggest we end this thread entirely, nothing usefull has come out of it, no ones opinions have changed from it, and nothing productive is occuring in it.
armor, buffs, etc, those are all non-proffession related. Its money related. You can have the most uber combat template ever and still be eaten alive by someone with a crappy template that has extremely good krayt weapons, 90% composite armor and buffed up the butt with doc buffs, food and spices if your uber combat guy has none of those.
For my example I only mentioned armor, since its the one that is most common..and usually almost every composite suit out there is like 50 something % heat resist.
". I just got done slaughtering a MCH's rancor and another's mauler without breaking a sweat, quite litterally slaughtering them. These things went down in 2 seconds flat, no wonder CH's think they were nerfed. However my guild happens to have a master BE/Master CH, and the stuff she has made (includeing a red con DURNI!, red con WITH my flamethrower equipped! A DURNI! A LESS THEN KNEE HIGH BUNNY! NOT EVEN CRAZED!) would make any MCH happy. I'm going to get a cl 8 war kitty with poison myself, take THAT evil rancor masters!"
exactly. Thats what ive been trying to say. A single poison pet is like facing a combat medic. in pvp, a rancor, even a BE made one with super high melee damage has to go through my defense mods, my armor and then my ham bar. that takes a long time. But a poison pet ignores all that. 1 hit, POW. I get ticked for like 200 to 500 poison per tick and that poison does not go away, im not a doc. and like CM's, they just need one hit in the affected ham pool to smack you when the poison has done its job..or his other pet's hitting you there. in fact, the MCH has 4 'chances' to hit the affected ham bar per combat round, as opposed to the CM who can only fire his own weapon and has 1 chance per combat round. When my ham bar is at 0 from poison, either of the MCH's 3 pets can hit me there.. just 1 point is all they need to incap me.. the 3 pets or the CH with his weapon. Or even worse, use a disease and a poison pet at once. Not nice at all.
Increasing the commando xp needed to up the boxes is no answer either. Its just a bit longer grind, but those who want it will do it, those who do have it already, arent affected by it.
and you're right about the spread of the skill points like it did in CH's. That analogy of the Battleship game is dead on
Ok....why does this matter anymore?
TH has already stated that the dot is getting nerfed into oblivion, by implementing BOTH resistances on the dot AND fire extinguishers.
Why do we care about dabblers now? The dot is going to be inconsequential.
tacwraith wrote:
like ive said many times before, the real power of the flamer is the DOT.
move the dot to master level only, let grenadeer tree be just massive heat damage (5k special1 8k special2), just make a special3 and put it in master box and have the special3 have the damage and the dot that the special2 currently has.
problem SOLVED.
Yeah, problem solved tac....there won't be any more dabblers because there won't be any more commandos. With the upcoming changes, the dot is going to be worthless. If you move what little power that is left to the master level, what will everyone use to skill up on...their launcher pistol?
LOL!!!