Commando Archive
Thread: Dont mean to pick on dablers but really, I think the flame skill mods should be spread out.
hrm, I've spent a bit more time reading the other replies to this post and tacwraith seems particularly thick-skulled so I think I need to explain this further.
One simple postulate:
-> the bigger the investment, the bigger the reward. IE: more skill boxes and exp required, thestronger the resulting character. lvl 3 flamethrower is stronger than lvl 2 flamethrower, master BH is stronger than master scout, etc.
One simple conclusion:
->Grenadeer requires a heavy skill investment (heavier than any single-weapon focused marksman tree), thus it should be stronger than any marksman-weapon master. Master commando requireseven more than grenadeer,so it should be stronger than grenadeer.
The mistake tacwraith is making (and refuses to pay attention to) is that he's focusing on the need to increase the difference between master commando and grenadeer, but ignoring the fact that grenadeer is in itself a heavy investment, and deserves to rank higher than the basic marksman masteries. Taking away the DOT from the flamethrower tree leaves grenadeers with the potential for a 9k attack (with a slow dmg sliced FT), but the delay is long (can be shortened with a speed sliced FT, but then dmg suffers), only uses a single damage type, isstilloften innacurate,and is available at a very limited range (less than the range for somemelee attacks even). For a much smaller skill investment I can take up dirty fighting from smuggler, use my FWG5 to spamlast ditchesevery second for a potential6k dmg, extremely accurately, from any range,and blow a grenadeer away in damage output.THISwould be imbalanced, but it's tacwraith's idea of a "fix".
The evidence tacwraith is providing should lead him to conclude that master commando needs a boost (most likely via balance pass over the 3 relatively useless trees, possibly a slight overall nerf to flamethrowers - like factoring heat resists into burn dmg - but with no differentiationbeyond that which already exists between master and grenadeers) but he stupidly keeps insisting it means grenadeers need to be nerfed to the point of uselessness while leaving his precious master commando untouched. Take some time to acknowledge the points other people are making here tacwraith, just because they aren't posted by you doesn't mean they don't have any validity.
How's that for spoon-feeding?
See the debate isnt about whether someone who invests more skill points should be more powerful than someone else. Its more of in SOEs eyes they want us level with every other professions, maybe have more tools to use, but level and not in one weapon.
The whole thing is, a pistoleer has the same trouble with a grenadeer as he would with a master command. Other weapons fixed or not, they are still going to see just as many FTs since we will never get a weapon to match damage capability but more than likely situational instead like range over damage. I agree that since we invest more skill points we should be more powerful, I know Tac, put the spoon away. However, SOE doesnt seem to see it that way.
When you hear people yelling nerf about our profession, what do you hear more? Nerf commando or nerf FT? You hear nerf FT. Now, if they gave the other weapons the same equivelant of the FT in damage capabilities instead of range or speed, something like that, you would hear that turn into nerf commandos.
This leads me to concern, and maybe I shouldnt get people all stirred up befor anything is happening, but like Tac said, SOE, given its history, would probably drop the FT down to the level of the other weapons we have befor fixing the others. And if they did fix the other to match the FT in damage capability, it would only be a matter of time befor they go back and nerf em all.
Again, I dont want to come off as anti-dabler, and this mostly is in paranoia (I dont care, I know its spelled wrong) but really, what would we do if this came up? I would like a dablers solution to this from their point of view, but maybe we can wait till we see if anything ever happens I guess.
TechnoHic wrote:
When you hear people yelling nerf about our profession, what do you hear more? Nerf commando or nerf FT? You hear nerf FT. Now, if they gave the other weapons the same equivelant of the FT in damage capabilities instead of range or speed, something like that, you would hear that turn into nerf commandos.
And there you've said it. The problem ISN'T the master/dabbler balance, it's the imbalance in the weapons ofour profession. No need to expand further.
Look at where I posted the weapons damage comparison. No matter if the other weapons are brought up in accuracy or damage or whatever, the flamethrower will still come out on top because of the dot damage. Without the dot, the flamer IS in-line with the other commando weapons. Our other weapon lines do need some love, but no matter what the DOT damage will always push the flamer to the top of all weapons.
Why do you think this damage difference is so blatantly visible? Because theres so many dabblers taking just one tree in commando to get that damage.The dot damage. Remember the hordes of 1-graul towing people? now the hordes of grenadeers are very visible, and their massive damage is too obvious to miss, the imbalance caused by this is now beggining to be noticed now that there's no graul hordes on the top of the list.
But... why is their damage imbalancing? flamer is no different from an LLC in damage.. but the dot allows the flamer users to fire-and-forget, as almost any target that has a fire dot will die from it. in pve this allows people to take down multiple high level creatures at once..which wouldve been hard to do with just an LLC. in pvp its the ol' torch and run, find someone else, torch, run..they will die, so no need to stay around to keep shooting them until they flop. An LLC oth, does have to.
Its that capability of the dot that is coveted by the 1-tree holders. its that capability which is making the flamethrower be perceived as overpowered. and it is. But not because the dot exists, but because it is easily avaliable.
Moving the dot to master effectively controls those who can wield the dot. just like eyeshot is going to be controlled by moving it to master BH.
I've yet to hear from you why you say theres a difference between the master commando and a grenadeer when using the flamethrower. Ive posted why both wield the same power, you have not posted why this is not so.
Lurax wrote:
TechnoHic wrote:
When you hear people yelling nerf about our profession, what do you hear more? Nerf commando or nerf FT? You hear nerf FT. Now, if they gave the other weapons the same equivelant of the FT in damage capabilities instead of range or speed, something like that, you would hear that turn into nerf commandos.
And there you've said it. The problem ISN'T the master/dabbler balance, it's the imbalance in the weapons ofour profession. No need to expand further.
/sigh
You took it out of context. Its o.k. I forgive you cause ther is a lot of text there to trim but instead of trimming let me compress it a bit.
People Yell nerf for the FT not Commandos
Ok, yes that indicates weapon imbalance, but lets look at the options to change that:
1) Make the other weapons as powerful as the FT. Result? eventual nerf on the whole profession since the cries shift from nerf the FT to nerf the Commando.
2) Drop the FT to the power of the rest of our weapons. Result? Youve seen the rest of our weapons right? So just a more direct aproach to the end result of option 1.
3) Come up with a compromise to were none of the weapons are as powerful as the FT is now untill master while leaving something there for dablers in an attempt to make people happy. Not really what I want but better than option1 or 2.
What I'm trying to show you is why I would like to here from the dablers to know what they would be willing to sacrifice. An example in my dabler view? I got some pistoleer skill for my LP. I would be willing for them to make that skill not work with the LP anymore if they would give us our own skill mods and specials. then I would still have the pistols but I am no way near as good as a master pistoleer. I am willing to do that cause I have seen the power of a LP in the hands of a master pistoleer and really it gets to be a bit much. It works now so I use it but I am prepared for them to blow that for me.
1. I did explain why masters are better than grenadeers right now, and I also acknowledged that the gap between master and grenadeer needs to be widened.
2. Techno, please go read what I suggested again. Your 3 suggestions are by no means the only options out there.
3. Neither of you two has yet acknowledged that grenadeer itself is (and should be) a viable build on its own. It requires a heavier skill point investmentthan most/all other professions talked about in comparison (pistoleer, rifleman, TKA come to mind). Your DOT-less grenadeer suggestions would leave the flamethrower line about as appealing as the HAR tree to non-masters, possibly less since it's heat type instead of acid.And yet it would still leave the FT as broken as it is now to masters, meaning all the nerf-herders out there will still be crying. In fact, this stupid idea would please NO ONE except master commandos, who get to keep their imbalanced FT skills.Coincidentally enough, Tacwraith and Techno are both master commandos......funny that.
This whole thread is just 2 guys repeatedly spamming the same dumb ideas without ever once acknowledging what anyone else is saying. I give up.
Remove the dot and it is a viable build of it own. 9k damage in one shot is nothing to shun at. In PvP you will outright incap anyone that is not wearing composite armor. In PvE you will instantly drop a huge chunk of any critter's ham in 1 shot (of course,if the dont have high heat resists, just like the LLC is awesome if you shoot at stuff with low electricity resist).
"It requires a heavier skill point investment than most/all other professions talked about in comparison (pistoleer, rifleman, TKA come to mind)."
you can master any of those said proffession and still be able to have grenadeer. This is why its so dabbled in, the skillpoints 'invested' to get grenadeer4 are minimal compared to the firepower it gives them.
Or better yet, master any ranged class and just 1 box short of master teras kasi (1 point left over). Or master ANY melee class other than tkasi and 47 points left over to put into any ranged class (aka enough points to get 4.4.3.0 in any ranged.. oooh thats accuracy tree, speed tree and almost all the damage specials on pistoleer or carbineer or rifleman).
OR you can be a master of any artisan proffession and still BE grenadeer and still have 32 points left over.
In all those cases, The grenadeer firepower, just ONE tree, is the equivalent of an entire ELITE COMBAT PROFFESSION firepower wise and its BETTER than ALL combat proffesions in its impact in combat. Because of the DOT.
So NO. Its NOT 'it requires heavy skill point investment', matter of fact its a very CHEAP point investment for the return it gives.
Its *exactly* the same reason why SOE is moving the EYESHOT in BH to master. Too many pistoleers were getting it, because its *that* effective. And the flame dot is way more effective than eyeshot in pve, and as effective in pvp.
said master crafter with the grenadeer tree WILL kill a master pistoleer, master teras kasi, etc etc etc, even someone with 2 master combat classes with ONE shot. One shot by either fire and forget (torch and burst run away while dot kills them) or by killing them with the initial damage if they have no good heat resist armor... or by kamikaze attacks. The grenadeer/crafter dies but the fire dot kills his target anyway.
"Your DOT-less grenadeer suggestions would leave the flamethrower line about as appealing as the HAR tree to non-masters, possibly less since it's heat type instead of acid."
THANK YOU. Thats the whole point. Imagine that SOE fixes the HAR's speed and accuracy mods... and removes the dot from the grenadeer tree. Would people choose the HAR..or the Flamer? Both give high damage per normal shot and very high damage with the short range special. Its just a matter of damage type.
"And yet it would still leave the FT as broken as it is now to masters, meaning all the nerf-herders out there will still be crying."
The FT is not broken. That people will still cry that the flamethrower dot is overpowered and all that? Of course they will. But it will be someone with the master title, that had 81 skill points left over that is able to do that to them..NOT someone with 124 skillpoints left over (grenadeer).
"In fact, this stupid idea would please NO ONE except master commandos, who get to keep their imbalanced FT skills.Coincidentally enough, Tacwraith and Techno are both master commandos......funny that."
coincidentally enough, arent you the one that just said 'except master commandos, who get to keep their imbalanced FT skills'? oooooh Where did that come from? So you think a MASTER should NOT have 'imbalancing' damage ability but a grenadeer SHOULD? Be careful where you point that finger, it may get snuck back in your rear end.
You're ignoring everything I wrote earlier tac to make a point, and a flawed point at that. It's just not worth arguing with you.
Lurax wrote:
The evidence tacwraith is providing should lead him to conclude that master commando needs a boost (most likely via balance pass over the 3 relatively useless trees, possibly a slight overall nerf to flamethrowers - like factoring heat resists into burn dmg - but with no differentiationbeyond that which already exists between master and grenadeers)
How's that for spoon-feeding?
Is this the suggestion your talking about?
I have a feeling this would be just as unpopular as anything that Ive suggested, fits under option 3. Again, masters would be OK with it, especially if they also had te HAR working as a clone to the FT just diferent damage type however I would fear asking for a slight nerf cause it would turn into a bigger nerf than we would hope.
Are you a dabler? Is this something dablers would accept? I personally feel the DOT is a bonus and a very nice one, but I really like my initial hit the most, but sme people really like the DOT and it getting past armor. I personally would go for something like this since I have the useless HAR line for another damage type, but again, when you say "slight nerf" remember "slight" is unknown to SOE.
There would still be one problem. I hate breaking up PvE and PvP but really, if someone torchess a krayt to living hell and back single handidly I could give a **edit**. In fact I would yelll a big "yeah! You go brother." Now on the other hand, if somone comes and torches my ass like nothing, I wouldnt be as happy.
My point? How many people out there do you see with 100% heat resists like creatures? I havent seen any, but then again I havent been grabbing the back of their shirt and reading the tag. But if this does start to play an effect on our DOT we will be outdamaged over time by these other classes you say invest less so they should get less.
Our initial damage is a force to be reconed with. Our DOT is what gives us the damage over time of the other professions at master level. You need master pistoleer to have that damage overtime from speed, specials, and acurracy to see it land, so moving the DOT puts master commando in line with other master professions.
There are more than just skill points to consider. Mastery I think counts for a big chunk in ratings in my book, but yes so does skill points. You point at Tac and I and say that we are masters so we are evily pursuing our own self interest and I find that offensive and feel you are just drumming the war drum while the whole time I have asked dablers what they would find reasonable and really have been trying to stay open minded to their oppinions.
DOnt label me in order to raise support for yourself.
If you wanna beef up the master commando and make it more usefull then grenadeers, beef up the speed. It has been proven in game that the absalute best way to increase damage output is to increase your fireing speed.
And Tac I know you argued your point but you made no sense in it, if player A with a 2 second wait time fought player B with a 6 second wait time, player A would get 3 shots off before player B got his second off, guess who would win?
And also it is proven that speed is the key in pvp, a master pistoleer/pistol bh can use eyeshot or stopping shot and do 1k damage per shot and shoot at a speed of 1.0 with 0 misses in as many as 50 shots. That 1k damage is pvp damage btw, and with eyeshot thats pure mind damage. In just 3 seconds this class of player can dish out 3k garunteed damage with no misses and running at full speed. It usually only takes 1 shot to kill the mind ham bar at 1k damage. Speed is power, buff the master commando's speed for flamethrower and har and you got a much more effective commando (or just move some of the speed mods from the tree to the master box).
BTW the dot isn't the bombshell, its the after effect. I think that 3k damage I did in 1 shot is going to hurt the baddy more then the 1k tic which just garuntees that he WILL die... eventually... If my second shot doesnt murder him faster.
nightwolf180 wrote:
And Tac I know you argued your point but you made no sense in it, if player A with a 2 second wait time fought player B with a 6 second wait time, player A would get 3 shots off before player B got his second off, guess who would win?
Just waant to say this. It takes the same ammount of time for the first shot to get off from either one. Thats the frontload damge we are talking about. I have said befor, speedwise/ damage over a period of time we can get outdamaged by other professions, what we have is brute force of the initial shot then the DOT/burn is what keeps us in check with the rest over time.
Im not going to touch the rest cause I dont know a hell a lot about BHs.