Commando Archive

what other weapons? grenades = flamer range. HAR= flamer range. Neither have on-the-move accuracy mods, so they will miss the same as the grenadeer's will.LP= wont kill rushing grenadeer before he reaches you ..and hey even if you kite him he can shoot you back with the same LP since master commando also = novice command in LP use.

heavy weapons wont hit a moving target unless you're REALLY lucky. and even if you do, if they wear armor they wont die, and the timer+kneel on the heavy weapon (any heavy weapon) will leave you helpless against the near-dead grenadeer that WILL kill you with a single shot (even if you survive the initial fire damage, the dot WILL kill you).

that pretty much sums up WHY the DOT is the root of the entire issue. damage wise the other weapons are about the same level, with flamer just being a wee bit higher in output in initial damage. but the dot is what really kills.

master marksman has overcharge2 shot also not working. its = to oc1. once fixed it will be the same difference as lunge2 is to lunge1 in brawler. very big difference.

hey tac this is definatly a good debate.i may run up to master commando in hopes of the future maybe.i dropped BH because i didnt like the lightning cannon.its lack of a DOT made it a very weak weapon in comparison to the flame thrower.

you definatly have good arguments on your points.i hope they leave the DOTs for flamer.other then that i agree with you haha.but then again im a dabbler.and for most and thankfully not you think that means i have no opinion on a subject.thanks for a good debate.

"Why do some people have such a problem with dabblers?

How exactly does it negativly effect you or your playing?

Truth is most people that dabble to much end up weaker then they thought they would be. Taking all offense and no defense makes you weaker. Takeing all defense and no offense makes you weaker.

Truth isalmost everyone dabbles in one way or another so saying someone shouldnt be able to dabble in your mainproffesion while you dabble in others is just hypocritical."san tsu wrote this after i whined about people picking meditation tree from tka and i think hes right.

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SoonToBeBountyHunter wrote:

"Why do some people have such a problem with dabblers?

How exactly does it negativly effect you or your playing?

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Thers nothing wrong with dablers. If I was anti-dabler, I wouldn't even try to find a way to save stuff for dablers like the front end damage.

"How exactly does it negatively effect you and your playing style?"

Well, no matter how we all look at CH as fix or nerf, it got brougt on by everyone using a graul mauler and complaints all over the place. After that patch I have seen a tenth of them that I usd to see, grauls and complaints both.

The same could be said for the FT. They are all over the place. You can call Tac and I evil and enemy of the commando all you want but in truth we are tossing up ideas that might save your dabling ass at least something instead of something to full extent of the CH fix/nerf what ever you want to call it.

I mean c'mon, theres so many flamers out there that it looks like big gay Als, big gay galaxy.

Tac and Techno... I see where you both are coming from on all this, and I appreciate your ideas and efforts, however, after considering everything you have said, I believe you are truly barking up the wrong tree. Please read through as I make a few preliminary points before I address your more specific comments.

I have to agree with you guys on the fact that MCHs where fixed, not nerfed. They were extrememly overpowered... and the p-o-k-e-m-o-n thing was getting ridiculous. MCHs are still powerful as is, and the amount of people that dabble in the profession has been dramatically decreased as players now have the ability to tank for themselves, and people with half the profession are not just as powerful as people with the entire profession. MCHs have nearly the power they had before.

However, since you are so entirely fond of bringing up this example, allow me to continue with it. How did they fix Creature Handler? They spread out the skills more evenly across all the trees to decrease the power of the dabblers compared to masters. EXACTLY what I am proposing with commando.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I honestly believe that you guys are failing to visualize the entire picture. The way I see it, you guys see flamethrower as the end all of the commando profession. I don't see why it should be. What dictionary are you reading where it says every commando runs around with a flamethrower? Until this game, flamethrowers where rarely ever assocaited with commandos.

Now I think we all agree that dabblers should not have the full power of a master. Nobody who spent half or 1/4 the skill points should have the power of somebody who spent all the skill points in a profession. Right? The reason that the dabblers can do this in the commando profession is two-fold. First that the commandos have one weapon that is far superior to all other weapons making the other weapons useless. Second is that the abilities to use that weapon are all concentrated into one tree.

You are proposing to make that tree weaker by moving specials further up to the point where only a master commando has access to them. I am proposing to spread out that tree to several trees to make things more balanced.

Cerifying weapons higher up the tree will NOT make the entire profession useless. I think that is a gross exaggeration on your part. What it will do is make it much more similar to the way things currently are for a person going up one of the trees in marksman... I think it's been a bit too long since you mastered marksman, so let me refresh your memory. EVERYBODY starts off using CDEF. You don't get the best guns till you get a little higher up. As I recall aFWG5 isn't available to novice marksman. Exactly the way I am proposing it to be now. Each weapon certification you get should give you a weapon that is powerful enough to get you to the next level.

As it is now, as soon as you get the flamethrower box 3/4 the rest of the commando line is a breeze... it took me just as long to get to box 3 in the grenadeer line as it did to master the rest of the profession. What is wrong with that picture?

Also I am not proposing one Heavy Weapons pool that gives speed and accuracy bonuses to all weapons... but each weapon still to be seperated. So for example the first box in the speed and accuracy (and this is not meant to be exact) might look something like this: +10 to flamethrower speed, +20 to grenade speed, +25 to rocket launcher speed, +10 to HPBC speed, +10 to HAR speed, +10 to launcher pistol speed, +10 to flamethrower accuracy, +20 to grenade accuracy, +25 to rocket launcher accuracy, +10 to HPBC accuracy, +10 to HAR accuracy, +10 to launcher pistol accuracy.... and etc. further up the line. Again, please don't question the numbers I threw out, I didn't put a lot of thought into them, they are just random examples.

As for you comments on the use oflaucher pistol, people are forced to use the launcher pistol to start off in the commando profession anyways... what's the difference? As soon as they start getting better weapon certifications they should be able to switch over to them and use them with reasonable competance... and if they are not hitting enough or fast enough, then they will be able to get better versions of the current weapon (read the notes about devs making several versions of each weapon so that people will be able to use better version as they move up skill trees).

Phew, sorry for the long post, and thanks for reading through it. As always, comments and criticisms are more than welcome

-Hypnodx

scottie, i will ream any MCH that still thinks the big grauls and rancors are his superweapons. Those I beat easy.

But those few MCH's that wisened up and actually began to tame or buy BE pets that have poisons and specials that will cripple an opponent kill me very fast.

Think about it. Ive been killed before I could damage the MCH himself (first rule, kill the owner). one pet with strong poison. BAM. no matter the outcome ill end up with no ham bar. Second pet has KD or posture down attack. Owner keeps telling pets to do special attacks (the same way combat classes spam specials with guns). I get MORE poison and also get KD'd or posture down, preventing me from getting close to MCH. Third pet is high melee damage, a 250-300 damage pet will slice through my HAM, especially if that ham is nearly zero thanks to that 300 damage per tick poison in the poison pet...and getting bonus damage applied when kd'd or kneeling from the melee damage pet.

And all the while im getting SHOT at by the MCH.

No matter how you see it, an MCH that knows his pets and how to use them will beat me with little effort. and with 10k ham bars its rather impossible for me to flamecone the pets down before they poison me (which is the KEY thing that kills me).

Its like facing a CM, someone halfway up their elite melee class AND a ranged class (the CH's combat gun skills) all at once. Not bad if you ask me.

Hey Tac, you may be the Commando expert, but you don't know jack about MCH. If you let them beat you, you don't know how to fight.

Our specials are gimped and don't work right. That was just a sop they threw at us to get us to accept our nerf.

Folks like you are what make this game no fun. Sorry, dude, we will never be on the same page on this. It's a Tom Delay-Ralph Nader divide that can't be crossed.

At least I wanna have fun, lol.

Jeez, Tac,I just looked at your sig. You are a master TKM, master commando and Rifleman.

And you can't beat an MCH? You must be the worst fighter in SWG.

OK, you're just a TKA. You should still beat an MCH every time. You don't know what you're doing.

Tac, it's folks like you that got MCHs and CHs emaciated. The uber-myth ofthe MCHhas lived on many months after its uber reality.

I know you mean well,but with regards to MCHs and CHs, I just don't think the facts support your position. You're dealing in myth, not reality. Visit the MCH board. They will educate you fast. MCH is for flower-children now.

Specifically, has any MCH killed you using just their pets since the patch? I need names, lol.

If so, I respectfully say you need to learn how to fight better.

Yes, Bio-Engineers can make better pets now, but they can't come close to the old uber-pets we used to have, like the old medium-armor Archane Webmasters and old Graul Maulers.

read my post again scottie. MCH's had no HOPE against me before the patch. Before patch the CH was a joke to face in pvp, for the pets really did no serious damage to you if you had 50% or higher kinetic armor. you killed the owner and then took down the pets at one's leisure. After the patch its when a CH that knows how to use his pet's abilities will kill me with little effort. but any ch that still clings to his melee pets only (aka grauls/rancors mostly) I laught at and kill with little effort.

and honestly, CH's in the forums are just whining because they no longer have pets that can tank forever and that they have to buy their best pets from a BE. I dont need to have a CH tell me how the class is, I used to be one. Just 1 box from master, but I dropped it when I got sick of my 2 GSP's taking punishment while I waited for my group or my flamer to kill off the whole nest of high level mobs that had aggroed them.. hit them with 4 good pet stims, voila, kitties up to near full again, repeat. carebear class.

now SOE took the carebear tanking away and seriously armed the pets with real nasty poisons and attacks. Its only the fool CH that whines now that his pets dont perform as they did before... because they are no longer meatshield tanks but rather heavy damage 'adds'.

My advice is don't ask for a nerf on your own class.

It only opens up the doors.

Allow me to point out something from the original post:

Master pistoleer require Novice marksman (15 skill pts), pistol tree (14 skill pts), novice pistoleer (6 skill pts) 4 pistoleer trees (56 skill pts) and master pistoleer (1 skill pt) for a total of 92 skill points.

Grenadeer requires novice brawler (15 skill pts), unarm tree(14 skill pts), novice marksman (15 skill pts), 4 marksman skill trees (56 skill points), master marksman (1 skill pt), novice commando (6 skill pts), flamethrower tree (14 skill pts) for a total of121 skill points.

So explain to me again why you think master pistoleer should be more powerful than a grenadeer?

A master commando should be stronger than a grenadeer, agreed. And it is, moderately.A master commando can use heavy weapons and grenades MUCH more effectively (I won't count the broken HAR tree), and still be more effective than a grenadeer with the flamethrower (+25 speed and accuracy is nothing to sneeze at, nor is an additional 2nd level AOEburn, regardless of what tacwraith insists). If you're like tacwraith, who wants more incentive to master commando (and quite frankly, I agree with him on this: there isn't enough benefit to justify 3virtually uselesstrees and 620 appr pts), the other 3 non-flamethrower trees need fixing. But nerfinggrenadeersand leaving master commandos with 1 overpowered weapon and 3 useless trees is NOT the way to fix this profession.

End of story.