Commando Archive
Thread: More on the commando change
I think the problem is that we expected the fix to be limited more or less to fixing the fact that everything viewed our FT as a Melee. Which was obviously wrong. The problem is that you slapped us with a 2.5 penalty for ranged, yet expect us to be within 16m to use our specials. Do rifleman have to use their specials that close? No. So why give us their penalty... Further the problem is that the Acid Rifle and FT are the SAME weapon, except the Acid Rifle has no DOT and hits for less. There MUST be a differenciation between these. Make the Acid Specials work at 64 and give THEM the 2.5 modifier. Then keep the FT the way it is BUT fix the modifier to what it was and make it not appear to be a melee weapon. Fix that and I'd be happy.
Noitcopa - Master Commando - Corbantis
You got it Holo!
It makes me laugh as to why we would have 2.5X the damage against us when fighting agains a melee enemy. Since we need to be within under 16 meters to use specials, it is almost as bad as giving a melee class a 2.5 damage versus melee 
Changethe launcher pistol to AP1 so it is more powerful than an FWG5.
Givecommandos a pistol attack.
Defensive multiplier is currentlytoo highagainst melee, lower it to pistol at least.
I am a Wookie Commando (on the Wanderhome server). I can not wear armor and PSGs are a joke. I spend 20K on a PSG and need to repair it within 15 minutes, now even sooner with the melee modifier. I have no defense against melee except for my poor Cowardly Gurreck. I know Wookies have increased strength (blah, blah), but having no armor I'm at a serious disadvantage versus another player with composite armor with 28% against kinetic. So they have armor light with 28% versus kinetic. I have no armor and 0% against kinetic. I go down ridiculously fast. Please take away the modifier or let me wear some Wookie Armor. You're telling me they can't just make a bigger size of armor? Please do something soon.
Go Cubs!
ChiZX
Yes as to your post Holo.
The patch opens the old wounds that never healed with respect to the SWG vision of the Commando. You give us two workhorse weapons, the Flamethrower and the Acid Rifle. Acid Rifle is totally unpalatable for reasons you could review if you searched the board and of which we have posted ad nauseum. The other two trees are fairly pointless given the weapon costs and damage gradients.
So we climb through Unarmed (which is pointless to us because there is no extension of unarmed in Commando) and Master Mark only to get a new class of weapons, which should be treated differently.
And once we get there, we find the pros and cons of the heavy weapon. Low accuracy at long range and specials that havea cool down during which we cannot get rid of them or do anything else.
Now we are being penalized for the SWG vision of COmmando, because our strength lies in our specials and the use of EVEN ONE FLAMETHROWER SPECIAL is most likely a death sentenceagainst a tough enemy.
I know all about the ranged penalty. I am also a Rifleman, so I have the benefit of understanding the pros and cons of both classes. With Rifleman, of course, I hit specials at long range (unlike Commando) and as soon as the enemy is in melee range I am switching out of rifle to avoid the damage penalty. With Commando, once I use a special I have no choice but to run for my life or sit there and take it.
Is this what you guys had in mind? Surely this issue requires much more thought before you neutralize the one of the combat valuesof the profession.
I guess I am one of the few here who expected that when heavy weapons would count as ranged weapons, I would be taking some sort of melee damage penalty. I fully support this damage penalty on the long ranged charged weapons (rocket launcher, heavy particle beam cannon etc.) But let's chat about the various things Sony could do with the flamethrower in particular:
1. Simply remove the melee damage penalty. This is what most posters want, and sounds good, but I think Sony is a little worried about giving a 450-707 base damage 64m ranged weapon no melee damage penalty.
2. Keep a melee damage penalty, but lower it down a bit to 1.5x or so. The justification here is that the specials don't work until nearly melee range.
3. Remove/lower the melee damage penalty, but lower the maximum range on the flamethrower.
4. Keep the melee damage penalty in, butyou can unequip your weapon even when locked and the game will count whatever you are holdingas your damage mod (ie shoot off a flame special, unequip flamthrower, and you would gain +20 melee toughness because you were in unarmed mode).
Who knows? MaybeSony will do something completely different or nothing at all. Time will tell.
dunno how this would work, but a good incentive to reach master commando would be to take off the 2.5x melee damagemultiplyer once reaching master status. flamecone2 is nice and all, but that's all i get for all my effort that's really worth while.
and krillin's post basically hit the nail on the head. why penalize us for using our specials? why force us to become pistoleers or smugglers to do damage at range? or purchase insanely expensive charged weapons that are even slower than using flamethrowersspecials? or why force us to go teras kasi to counter balance the 2.5x melee damage multiplyer?
yes, we do deal tons of damage. yes, we used to 1 shot kill. yes, we have a powerful damage over time special. but there are tons of ways to avoid all that in pvp, which as the real gripe with other players to begin with. add to that that revenge TEF was removed, and you have successfully eliminated a huge grieving tool to many a player.
all in all, this patch has extremely disappointed an entire class. i know other classes have been hit with the nerf bat (BH and CH keep getting it over and over). but that doesnt' make it right. like many have been saying in the past, fix the things first, nerf things later. maybe if all the other skills were fixed right now, things would be a lot better. as it is, many other classes like carbinier and squad leader (heck, even weaponsmiths) have problems that do not enable them to play the game as it should be. instead of lowering the abilities of one class, how about fixing the abilities of the others.
for instance, the defensive mods. i'm sure if all the defensive mods for "defense vs. knockdown" were working in the past, you'd see less people complaining about knockdown spam during battle. as it is, you've made some classes worthless because of it. pikemen and bounty hunters rely on knockdown moves. not only for pvp, but for pve as well. heck, the pikemen description even says that their class is based on sweeps and knockdowns. by nerfing that, you've just changed their entire class. if the problems with the defensive mods have been fixed, we might still be able to see them act they way they were portrayed in their descriptions.
AgentClark wrote:
Commando weapons would operate at up to 64m, but their strength is at short range for both specials AND default attack.
I would also say accuracy. As the range increases the DMG and acc decreases. It also dosent seem right that we take such a hit vs meele since we have to study unarmed as well. That just dosent make sence to me...My 2 credits...but yes Holo, that is atleast how I see it.
I think it makes perfect sense, if you dont want to take extra damage from a melee like all other ranged profession unequip your gun and use your unarmed skills.
Holocron wrote:
OK, bear with me a bit here because I am still ramping up on exactly what the issue is (I don't play a commando myself).
The way things are at the moment, post-patch:
- Commando weapons operate at up to 64m. The default loop is slow but pretty powerful in terms of raw damage per hit. (I don't know how they are in terms of DPS--?)
- Commando weapon specials are limited to <16m.
- The commando weapons take pretty significant accuracy hits when used <16m.
- But the commando specials have significant accuracy bonuses which make them very accurate at <16m.
- Commandos take ranged weapon defensive penalties when fighting vs melee, resulting in 2x damage to them.
The way you thought things were going to be:
- Commando weapons would operate at up to 64m, but their strength is at short range for both specials AND default attack.
- Commandoswould not do extra damage to ranged weapon wielders.
- Commandos would not take defensive penalties versus melee
Is that accurate? I just need solid info so I can discuss this with the combat designer.
I agree with the way things are post-past assuming, but maybe you could make it so flame thrower is 1.5x and the heavier weapon 2x ... this would makegameplay more strategic ... also there is nothing stopping anyone in training further into unarmed combat to get a knockdown move, so when melee oponent gets in range you stop unarm your gun knockhim down, get some distance again and flame his arse
yes commando is an elite profession with a lot of skill point requirements, but they are not melee specialists, lets get that clear right now. if anything i would prefer you remove the unarmed requirements then to remove the damage multiplier.. this is only fair as every ranged professions should suffer the same penalties
Balancing is tricky subject but consider this when balancing: Me and another master commando are waiting for the shuttle on Lok (both overt Rebs), out from nowhere comes a Novice Doctor (Imperial) and within 5 seconds we are both down and killed. Our Flame2 Specials did all but no damage (you hit XXX for 4578dmg) even though the screen tells me i did loads. Away runs the guy shouting...."you commandos and your puny flames". At that point i was very close to dropping the whole profession and going with medic.
I would assume that in any game and any scenario commandos (if you consider them top of the fighting class) should be able to take on most other people that are not Elite profession masters.
What i can take is insults from other players, what i cant take is insults from the game that im playing.
Toog
I will try to summarize a nice plan of fixing the commandos, I think that most people would agree to it andso would the devs
The most terrifying issue as of now is the melee dmg x2.5 penalty which is unfair and undeserved. It must be removed immediatly as it is simply unneeded.
However, I do agree that the commandos were a bit overpowered before this. Therefore I propose the following:
- Remove the melee dmg penalty
- Remove the bonus vs. ranged opponents (which should balance with the removal of the melee dmg pen.)
- Give us a decent (but not overpowered and no knockdowns) pistol attack for the launcher which would actually make it better than the fwg5
- Fix the Heavy Acid Rifle by giving it AP2 and increasing the range and speedbut lowering the dmg
- Increase the dmg (or add more effects) to the grenades which are now mostly useless
- Add a DECENT special to the master box which would make it worth getting
- Decrease the delay between the flamethrower specials and maybe increase the dmg a bit but lower the bleed (not shorten it, just lower the dmg). Also do not touch the wound effect as it limits the "clone wars" pvp tactic considerably which is a good thing
- As of now, the Heavy Weapons line is the only complete and working one, I see no reason to touch it at all
PLEASE READ THE TEXT ABOVE CAREFULLY AND THINK ABOUT IT.
THIS ESPECIALLY GOES FOR THE DEVS.