Commando Archive
Thread: Final Word on Detonation Droids for Publish 8 Commandos Not Added
Daker, lets calm down about this and let it go. There was some things in here that could lead them to feel like it was a nerf call.
These little droids are going to be nothing more than our stand on getting our HWs fixed. I bet they can be blown up befor getting into blast radius range as droids are easily destroyed. I know it looks like they are going to be blast damage also but the HS's have had one up on us on that anyway but thats not to say they are going to walk up and start beating on the turrets.
Everyone just let it go.
DayWalkerRori wrote:
Well, We was pulling & trying to help commandos over this and Numb Nuts up there starting Mouthing off and then Nerf Crys started when and only when Commandos didnt get in the Cert...Like BH/Smugglers had some controll over the Devs (God knows we wish we did)
Oh then this...AFTER the Fact the Devs said No to add youll to the Cert...Sounds like a Nerf Cry to me
"Basically you are giving these folks an over-powered weapon that will just anger 2 communities when it's NERF'd later or anger a lot more professions if it's not NERF'd...maybe you really need to rethink this module a bit more before releasing it"
Can someone translate this for me? I haven't gotten my leet dood certification yet...
Garvin is trying to protect blast damage....he is NOT trying to nerf anyone. It's that simple. If the droid did non-blast damge, less blast damage, or no blast damage against turrets and at-sts, we would have no problem whatsoever.
Message Edited by DayWalkerRori on 04-24-2004 03:37 PM
If any commando wants access to Detonation Droids, whether the devs restrict them or not, you can easily spend 6 skill points to get Novice Smuggler (the cert is granted there)....
I'll still work on getting us added to the list whether my suggested restrictions go in there or not...but many of us know that dabbling the Dirty Fighting tree of Smuggler grants some nice LP specials (LowBlow)...
That's why I pretty much laugh at someone when they suggest that pushing for restrictions on bomb droids is because Commandos aren't on the list...6 skill pts isn't really that tough if we wanted them...LOL
Ranelaen wrote:
Um Garvin dont make me hurt you. Think about what you just said, any newb can spend 6 points and do more blast damage then us. If anything this should be a master box in both, so if they want that kind of damage they have to earn it. Commandos spend 169 for 3k to 7k blast. Smugglers spend 6 sp to get 500 to 7k blast damage that dont miss under 17m and can be triggered from 150 away. Sigh..........
Ranelan
Master Commando - Colonel in the Imperial Forces
LOL...Ranelaen I think you missed the pun...Some folks are trying to gloss over my restriction suggestions saying that a Commando is pushing for them because we aren't on the list of those who can use them...I was just pointing out how easy it is for us to get them...and for that matter, how easy it is for anyone else to get them as well...TO EASY...by just getting Novice Smuggler...
A weapon like these bomb droids, in their current state, are too powerful and too exploitable for any dabbler to take (imagine a Combat Medic poisoning or diseasing you from past 64m while at the same time sending bomb droid after bomb droid at you or an npc)...Not only do we increase kiting, but we move kiting to a new level beyond 64m (more then that level has already been passed)...
Adding the following restrictions:
- Detonate limit to 64m
- Only one bomb droid can be called per combat
Would take care of 99% of any one's general issues and make them non-exploitable...from there we can look at issues with Blast damage and such, but if it's only one droid bomb per fight, then it's not as much as a huge deal...
I didn't mean for it to look like I support these bomb droids the way they exist...just a response to the stupid arguement that we are crying sour grapes...
To paraphrase the main issues here and save folks the trouble of going back through the thread:
- Exploding Droids can be detonated over twice normal fighting distance (without generating agro in PvE when using this method?)
- Exploding Droids potentially (depending on design of the droid you use) do more blast damage than the Commando weapons such as the rocket launcher, which was given as our justification for not being certed for the detonation modules.
- As long as you aren't agro'd, you can call out crates of the things and send them in to soften up difficult targets, whether this is intended or not is unknown.
- There are far less restrictions to using the droids than to using conventional weapons (again, this brings up the issue of the rocket launcher being the justification for commandos not being certed.) You can seemingly detonate them out of harm's way, and often for more damage than a rocket launcher would do
- They are easier to craft than rocket launchers and other consumables?
Basically, my take on the issue, for balance, is that:
- Detonation command needs to be limited to something like 80m away instead of 150m I think it is right now
- Commando consumables (and their AE affects) need to be updated to reflect the exploding droid damaging affects.
- This means that Heavy Consumable Weapon Damage needs to be increased.The fact that novice Smugglers/BH'shave the ability to out-damage a commando, the master of heavy weapons, with novice of a hybrid profession when the commando spends two entire skill lines devoted to heavy AE weapons is imbalanced. Note that this doesn't mean I wan't a nerf on either professions in terms of damage, rather I'd like to see commando consumables upped to reflect the detonating droid damage output and cost.
- The AE and damaging affect of the droids are far superior to innacurate commando weapons, and hit everything within the blast radius - to balance heavy consumable AE weapons, I'd say that they need to be given a similar affect. The droid AE damage seems to be more in-line with how consumable weapon AE damage should be handled in the first place.
- Blast Damage was allegedly supposed to be the commando specialty, one of the things that helped to define the class, and now it is pretty much gone, with our rocket launchers being out-damaged by novice-certed droids. (I have one question here though, does anyone know what AP the droid blast has?)
Anyways, I don't look at this as a call for nerfing, rather as a balancing act to prevent further damage to the game's integrity, and leverage for the improvement of commando weapons (particularly the close-range AE ones such as grenades and our higher end items like Rocket Launchers.)
Raptor2k1 wrote:
To paraphrase the main issues here and save folks the trouble of going back through the thread:
...
- Exploding Droids potentially (depending on design of the droid you use) do more blast damage than the Commando weapons such as the rocket launcher, which was given as our justification for not being certed for the detonation modules.
Exactly!
...
- There are far less restrictions to using the droids than to using conventional weapons (again, this brings up the issue of the rocket launcher being the justification for commandos not being certed.) You can seemingly detonate them out of harm's way, and often for more damage than a rocket launcher would do
Exactly!
- They are easier to craft than rocket launchers and other consumables?
Exactly!
...
- Detonation command needs to be limited to something like 80m away instead of 150m I think it is right now
I disagree with this... The detonation range needs to be set to 64m, and the BH/Smugger needs to be within 64m the WHOLE time or the countdown stops.
Turrets can't shoot past 80m (and my understanding is that ther range is only 70m or 75m), and it is way too easy to run within 80m or so (note: unattackable), tell the droid to detonate, and then run out of 90m (aggro range) within a second or so of time before the droid detonates. It is also way too easy, even at 65m, for someone (within one second) to send the droid off, run within 65m, tell the droid to detonate, and then run out of 65-70m (unattackable).
- Commando consumables (and their AE affects) need to be updated to reflect the exploding droid damaging affects.
If updated = tripled or quadrupled (to account for increased damage and more than 50% accuracy), then exactly
- This means that Heavy Consumable Weapon Damage needs to be increased.The fact that novice Smugglers/BH'shave the ability to out-damage a commando, the master of heavy weapons, with novice of a hybrid profession when the commando spends two entire skill lines devoted to heavy AE weapons is imbalanced. Note that this doesn't mean I wan't a nerf on either professions in terms of damage, rather I'd like to see commando consumables upped to reflect the detonating droid damage output and cost.
Exactly.
- The AE and damaging affect of the droids are far superior to innacurate commando weapons, and hit everything within the blast radius - to balance heavy consumable AE weapons, I'd say that they need to be given a similar affect. The droid AE damage seems to be more in-line with how consumable weapon AE damage should be handled in the first place.
Yes. I ask however, why do we need 2 weapons that do ranged AOE...grenades and rocket launchers? If both our grenades and launchers do ranged AOE, doesn't that make our weapon divversity kinda worthless? Won't commandos just pick the best launcher/grenade and use that?
- Blast Damage was allegedly supposed to be the commando specialty, one of the things that helped to define the class, and now it is pretty much gone, with our rocket launchers being out-damaged by novice-certed droids. (I have one question here though, does anyone know what AP the droid blast has?)
Exactly
Anyways, I don't look at this as a call for nerfing, rather as a balancing act to prevent further damage to the game's integrity, and leverage for the improvement of commando weapons (particularly the close-range AE ones such as grenades and our higher end items like Rocket Launchers.)
Exactly
Just as the FT DoT nerf was necessary for the long-run balance of the game, I believe some restrictions on the exploding droids will be too.
Yes, but I think devs will ignore the need for heavy restrictions. They (1) hate us, and have said they wished they had never invented commandos(2) won't admit they lack any sort of foresight and were wrong, so will pretend like these droids are perfect and cause no problems, and (3) wouldn't know balance and the need for class purpose if it bit them in the arse.
Think about it... BHs and Smugglers complain that they need help, and their classes have been over nerfed.They ask for their current abilities to be fixed, and for their classes to be given more purpose (BH: Player Bounties; Smuggler: the ability to smuggle things). Do devs fix the existing problems in these professions by fixing the classes specials and internal balance that is already there, or by adding the content that players ask for? NO! They create a new exploiding droid that has NOTHING to do with those classes, the has NOTHING to do with the Star Wars Universe, that the classes DIDN'T ask for, and that really fixes NOTHING and is really unbalanced.
Scarier still, is that they couldn't see that it was a stupid, unbalanced solution for BHs and Smugglers before they even implemented it.
I wouldn't hold my breath...
- Grenades are on a delay timer seperate from normal combat moves
- Grenades focus on closer range, and serve a variety of utility purposesfrom freezing/glopping people in place, to blasting them and causing them to fall over. Rocket Launchers and other HSW are long-range consumables designed more for the direct-hit punch-packing approach, rather than being something that's periodically tossed in in the middle of combat to affect a portion of the battlefield (they tend to be more anti-armor, the grenades would be mostly anti-infantry cluster specialized.)