Commando Archive
Thread: My idea on hearing just a word of having riffleman skills work with commando!
We shouldn't expect 169 pts to buy us godhood post revamp...or that it will make us compete on the same level as another player who spent all of their 250 skill points on combat abilities...169 pts vs 250 pts should lose everytime...but a 250 pt Commando vs. a 250pt some other Combat make up should be a fairly even fight with the victory going to whomever use the best tactics for their template and in the fight...Think of it this way...Rock, Paper, Scissors...Rock always beats Scissors, Scissors always beats Paper, but Paper beats Rock...all 3 can beat something, but all 3 can loose as well...
). He's the one that took up the mantle of correspondant and all the highs and low that go with it. I for one am glad he is our correspondant
Message Edited by freelancerx on 09-20-2004 03:32 PM
freelancerx wrote:
We shouldn't expect 169 pts to buy us godhood post revamp...or that it will make us compete on the same level as another player who spent all of their 250 skill points on combat abilities...169 pts vs 250 pts should lose everytime...but a 250 pt Commando vs. a 250pt some other Combat make up should be a fairly even fight with the victory going to whomever use the best tactics for their template and in the fight...Think of it this way...Rock, Paper, Scissors...Rock always beats Scissors, Scissors always beats Paper, but Paper beats Rock...all 3 can beat something, but all 3 can loose as well...
Unfortunatly this isn't what happens ATM as a Normal Elite combatprof can kick the ass off a M.Commando who has paid their 169pts to be a Hybrid Elite combat prof.
100% correct...but you are thinking in the now...I'm speaking post revamp when points WILL mean something and the points spent on an elite profession vs. the points spent on a hybrid profession WILL matter...
Now Sucks...Future Good...Fixes are coming that will change that look...When talk about this idea, I'm talking not ATM...I'm taking about down the road...Like I've said more, my thoughts would make MUCH more sense if you could see what I've seen coming...
What I want is for commando to be unbeatable in ITS ROLE. As in, no other ranged class should beat it in AOE type attacks (that unlike melee are very high damage but very high refire delay + put dot on target), because its one of our specialties. As in, no other class should beat us in anti-armor role, because its our specialty.
Yes, we have enough points left over to become good in any other proffession.. yet what Im trying to say is that if we are the ranged AOE specialists (via short range 'spray' weapons like har and flamer or long range via explosives like rocket launcher and grenades), then no other class should be good at it. Read: riflemen/pistoleers/carbineers should not be able to do heavy damage in AOE attacks... but instead should do damage at single targets in a manner the commando cannot equal. Since I dont know about the ham/combat changes the easiest way I can think about it is having the riflemen have slow refire rate but high single target damage at 40-64m, carbineers have medium refire rate and medium damage at 20-40m and pistoleers have very fast refire rate and low damage at 0-40m.
But as things are now and as im quite sure things will end up in the revamp, the commando will end up as merely a mediocre combatant in most ranges and roles and being forced to master another combat proffession to be competitive.
tacwraith wrote:
Garvin I understand perfectly what you're saying. I guess you're missing my point this time around.
What I want is for commando to be unbeatable in ITS ROLE. As in, no other ranged class should beat it in AOE type attacks (that unlike melee are very high damage but very high refire delay + put dot on target), because its one of our specialties. As in, no other class should beat us in anti-armor role, because its our specialty.
Yes, we have enough points left over to become good in any other proffession.. yet what Im trying to say is that if we are the ranged AOE specialists (via short range 'spray' weapons like har and flamer or long range via explosives like rocket launcher and grenades), then no other class should be good at it. Read: riflemen/pistoleers/carbineers should not be able to do heavy damage in AOE attacks... but instead should do damage at single targets in a manner the commando cannot equal. Since I dont know about the ham/combat changes the easiest way I can think about it is having the riflemen have slow refire rate but high single target damage at 40-64m, carbineers have medium refire rate and medium damage at 20-40m and pistoleers have very fast refire rate and low damage at 0-40m.
But as things are now and as im quite sure things will end up in the revamp, the commando will end up as merely a mediocre combatant in most ranges and roles and being forced to master another combat proffession to be competitive.
I agree 100% with Tac. As I said before, a commando should be the Tip of the Spear, First to Fight. However, and God help the Devs if they dont get this right, I can see Garvin's point. A commando, on his own at 169 skill pts, mustbe the defacto damage dealer. But, should he choose, he can supplement his skills. He may choose to be an Ultra-High Damage commando by augmenting his existing skills with that of other profs through more specials and/or more speed/acc or perhaps, he could go another route and opt for more tanking power by choosing a melee class that would augment some of his innate commando defenses. Granted, this is all pie in the sky, but some of us can hope.
tacwraith wrote:
Garvin I understand perfectly what you're saying. I guess you're missing my point this time around.
What I want is for commando to be unbeatable in ITS ROLE. As in, no other ranged class should beat it in AOE type attacks (that unlike melee are very high damage but very high refire delay + put dot on target), because its one of our specialties. As in, no other class should beat us in anti-armor role, because its our specialty.
Yes, we have enough points left over to become good in any other proffession.. yet what Im trying to say is that if we are the ranged AOE specialists (via short range 'spray' weapons like har and flamer or long range via explosives like rocket launcher and grenades), then no other class should be good at it. Read: riflemen/pistoleers/carbineers should not be able to do heavy damage in AOE attacks... but instead should do damage at single targets in a manner the commando cannot equal. Since I dont know about the ham/combat changes the easiest way I can think about it is having the riflemen have slow refire rate but high single target damage at 40-64m, carbineers have medium refire rate and medium damage at 20-40m and pistoleers have very fast refire rate and low damage at 0-40m.
But as things are now and as im quite sure things will end up in the revamp, the commando will end up as merely a mediocre combatant in most ranges and roles and being forced to master another combat proffession to be competitive.
I totally hear what you are saying Tac...We should rule in our range when it comes to AOE...and guess waht, that's what the Sandbox testing is for...to make sure we do have the numbers on our side based on our role...But we also have to stick to that...SHORT RANGE AOE...we lack powerful ranged attacks (don't read more into this to assume we aren't getting ranged specials...we may or may not be getting them...I can't say either way at this point)....
Just how do you see our role...From our post discussions (the whole forum), most of us felt our role should be the Heaviest Damage Dealing profession on the front line of combat (short range)...Many of use also felt it was better to forgo defense and speed in exchange for offense OR forgo speed and accuracy in exchange for defense and heavy offense (to make us last longer on the front line)...
Look...Rifleman will always rule from a distance...They are the Sniper profession...They shouldn't out damage us via DPS, but they should have better accuracy at ranged distance then we have...The trick is, how do you deal with someone who likes to stay far away from you? I'm not talking how you deal with them with what we currently have, but with what is coming...Kiters will have their vunerabilities...
So what we are left with is being the Masters of AOE, but at shorter range...the way we fix our range issues is by getting ranged specials or by getting some type of ability that will MAKE the opponent get into OUR range...Which would you prefer? Making them get into OUR range, or having ranged specials of our own? What if 81 skill points was enough to get both? Your Tactics possibilities would have just shot up there...Shoot for ranged with medium damage, or pull them into closer range to hit for high damage...
Fora long time (especially after BH got it's reduction) we've pushed the fact that we have more Combat relatedPre-Reqs then any other profession...The devs are taking note of that in the revamp...We will be able to fit our intended role without spending another point above 169...the remaining 81 pts will "enhance" your commando...That's where my idea comes in...what if you could take that 81 pts and get those things we've been telling the Devs we need to make us complete? What if 81 pts was the right amount to completely build the Commando you've always envisioned...The Commando who rules AOE and Ranged? Or an unstopable monster at Melee Range who is a kiters worst nightmare....
I'm not saying we will be uber or completely unstopable...we too will have our own weaknesses and 81 pts won't fill all the voids, but our 169 pts will put us ahead of those who have spent less...it's when we all reach 250 pts (or there abouts) that we'll have to rely more on strategy and hope we planned correctly so that we can target our opponents specific weaknesses...
Let say our role is to be the soldier on the front lines of any battle...The expendable soldier capable of delivering the highest damage attacks, but restricted to close range and carrying slow bulky weapons....What would we need to fulfill that role? If we need to compete with other professions standing behind us from safer ranged distances, what do we need to make sure they don't outpower us even when it comes to DPS? There are 2 major things I can think of that will help put us more in line of where many of us feel we should be? How do we last AND compete? The clues are there....and I'm talking with only a 169 pt expenditure...
The remaining 81 skill points is then used to alter that role HOW EVER you as the player want YOUR role to be...
Moving our specials to 32m would be nice, but that won't solve ALL of our issues and would still leave us with being kited to death (no 64m specials and even if we had them, how do we outpower other professions 64m specials)...Adding speed to our weapons would be great as well, but again, we'd still need to get people into our range...And cranking up our defenses would make us last longer but then it would only be a matter of time to kill us..The trick is taking all those issues, balancing them against other professions and our own power levels AND THEN using those remaining points to close the deal...
If you were still a M.Commando what would you dabble? Lets say you'd dabble Rifleman...what would you get? You'd get a defense boost and ranged specials that you can use with Rifleman weapons...you'd also gain a 5 second delay for switching to those Rifleman weapons to use those specials...By my idea, you wouldn't have that delay, you'd still get the defenses AND you'd be able to use those specials on your FT...and what if there were other bonuses that you get the higher you go in Rifleman that would make you even better with your Flame Thrower then you would have been had you gone a different route? Wouldn't that be MUCH better then just increasing the range of our specials to 32m, adding a bit of speed and throwing in a little bit more defenses? What if you could get everything you wanted and more by just going out and "buying it" from another profession...That's what I'm trying to say....
Message Edited by garvin on 09-20-2004 04:51 PM
Heavy Weapons Tree (combat xp tree): Certs and Mods and specials for the shoulder mounted weapons,mines and the grenades (hopefully fixed and improved sheesh)
Heavy Assault Tree: Certs and Mods and specials for flamethrower and Acid Rifle and in the future hopefully, E-Web.
Small Arms Tree: same accuracy/speed mods for carbine+pistols+rifles that BH's receive in their bounty carbine and bounty pistol trees..only we also get it for rifles. Add 'grandmaster marksman' specials that are just 'better' versions of those found in the marksman ranged support tree: Aim3 (same acc bonus but commando does not stop to aim), tumbleto**2 (same as ranged support tumble but costs no ham), overchargeshot3 (same as 2 but does not damage the weapon), cover fire (same as supression fire1 but with higher chance to cause the posture down effect..still no way near as good as carbineer supression2) and takecover2 (same as takecover1 but no ham cost)
(note this tree just copies the BH's speed and accuracy mods for pistols and carbines and adds equivalents for rifles and just adds slightly improved master marksman skills. No new weapons added, commando would only be able to use the marksman cert weapons)
Field Tactics Tree: Put ranged and melee defense and status defense mods here. Split 5% at box1, 5% at box2 5% at box3 10% at box4, 75% of them in master box. +5 terrain neg in each box, +20 terrain neg in master box.
Make Commando have low ranged and melee defenses (+50 each total at master), receive melee and ranged mitigation1 in a box1 and then melee AND ranged mitigation2 in master box, +100 to defense of every status effect in the game total, split as mentioned in the field tactics tree.
This effectively makes the commando be very hard to stop from coming AT you for a close range AOE attack because of the high status defenses but not as hard to KILL while coming at you when compared to a melee or another ranged class because of the low ranged/melee defenses.
And there you have a proffession that is versatile in weapons, who DOES get the bang for the buck spent in skillpoints (accuracy and speed = to BH's but with no damage specials to go with them, just ranged support ones), who is highly mobile and hard to get status effects on but who, being limited to low ranged and melee defense plus having mitigation2 as tops is vulnerable to anyone concentrating direct fire on him. A proffession that can boost his capabilities with his remaining skillpoints.. be it by increasing his direct-target weapon capabilities or his ranged or his melee defenses.. but he will always have one weakness no matter where he spends the skillpoints at past master commando.
tacwraith wrote:
Think about it... if the commando trees looked like this (left to right):
Heavy Weapons Tree (combat xp tree): Certs and Mods and specials for the shoulder mounted weapons,mines and the grenades (hopefully fixed and improved sheesh)
Heavy Assault Tree: Certs and Mods and specials for flamethrower and Acid Rifle and in the future hopefully, E-Web.
Small Arms Tree: same accuracy/speed mods for carbine+pistols+rifles that BH's receive in their bounty carbine and bounty pistol trees..only we also get it for rifles. Add 'grandmaster marksman' specials that are just 'better' versions of those found in the marksman ranged support tree: Aim3 (same acc bonus but commando does not stop to aim), tumbleto**2 (same as ranged support tumble but costs no ham), overchargeshot3 (same as 2 but does not damage the weapon), cover fire (same as supression fire1 but with higher chance to cause the posture down effect..still no way near as good as carbineer supression2) and takecover2 (same as takecover1 but no ham cost)
(note this tree just copies the BH's speed and accuracy mods for pistols and carbines and adds equivalents for rifles and just adds slightly improved master marksman skills. No new weapons added, commando would only be able to use the marksman cert weapons)
Field Tactics Tree: Put ranged and melee defense and status defense mods here. Split 5% at box1, 5% at box2 5% at box3 10% at box4, 75% of them in master box. +5 terrain neg in each box, +20 terrain neg in master box.
Make Commando have low ranged and melee defenses (+50 each total at master), receive melee and ranged mitigation1 in a box1 and then melee AND ranged mitigation2 in master box, +100 to defense of every status effect in the game total, split as mentioned in the field tactics tree.
This effectively makes the commando be very hard to stop from coming AT you for a close range AOE attack because of the high status defenses but not as hard to KILL while coming at you when compared to a melee or another ranged class because of the low ranged/melee defenses.
And there you have a proffession that is versatile in weapons, who DOES get the bang for the buck spent in skillpoints (accuracy and speed = to BH's but with no damage specials to go with them, just ranged support ones), who is highly mobile and hard to get status effects on but who, being limited to low ranged and melee defense plus having mitigation2 as tops is vulnerable to anyone concentrating direct fire on him. A proffession that can boost his capabilities with his remaining skillpoints.. be it by increasing his direct-target weapon capabilities or his ranged or his melee defenses.. but he will always have one weakness no matter where he spends the skillpoints at past master commando.
The bulk of the commando damage would be done via the heavy weapons. The Small Arms tree is there for 2 reasons:
1) Give commando the ability to fight and hit other elite proffessions with the marksman cert weapons. If you read the description again, there are NO DAMAGE specials in that tree that the commando doesnt already have as master marksman.
In short, imagine a BH firing carbine or pistol while only being able to use ranged support specials. Thats the capability the commando would receive..and its there for flexibility issues, for if a headshot is needed he can switch to a jawa rifle...just like commando can now. Problem is, NOW with master marksman only mods, the commando doesnt have a snowball's chance in hell to hit any elite proffession with that rifle. OTH, with what I posted, the commando will have the chance to fire that headshot1 with his marksman certification rifle and be able to HIT with it. No damage is added to commando by this, only improves the chances of hitting with the weapon.
2) Allows the commando to receive additional combat performance in either rifles pistols or carbines by taking up boxes in those proffessions. Just the same as a BH can take up pistoleer or Carbineer and receive excellent combat benefits from it.
The HAR and flamer have horrible accuracy at mid and long ranges, as they should have. Thats why commando has to have the small arms tree. However, the commando does have the choice of remaining long range via rifle/carbine fire and using rocket launcher and grenades to deal damage, or go in close and dirty with HAR/Flamer.
No matter what the outcome, any elite prof will outdamage the commando when using small arms. But no proffession will outdamage commando via AOE because our RL's and HAR/FLAMER should be the heaviest damage with long delay weapons in the game.
The way i see the commando should be in the game is a guy that uses the small arms and be competent with them, ,but who has the ability to at any given time hit an opponent with one very high damage AOE hit...but have a long delay before he can fire again. Use the heavy weapons as the KO uppercut in the boxing fight, the small arms as the small,fast punches to wear the other guy down. Thats how I see it.
Message Edited by tacwraith on 09-20-2004 10:43 PM
WeissHengst wrote:
The only problem I have with this... isn't commando a heavy weapons profession?
I'm only goint to respond to this part for now (I want to see how others respond for a bit...
It's my personal opinion that Commandos are MUCH more then just a heavy weapons profession...or at least we should be...our roots touch every type of ranged weapon out there...We are masters of all weapon types along with being Heavy Weapon Experts...We train on rifles, carbines and pistols even before getting to the Heavy stuff...Therefore we should understand the basics of all those weapons...To me, it would then make sense that we can then use those weapons or at least their specials on our Heavier weapons...
Many people say our Unarmed pre-req sucks because we don't use it...SO, doesn't allowing us to USE what we earn make sense,especially when it comes to Marksman and the Unarmed Tree? And why stop there, if I go on to take up Carbineer, why shouldn't I be able to utilize that with my weapon of choice...Why do the Carbineer specials have to be tied to Carbines...If I worked hard to grind out that profession, as long as it doesn't make me uber I should be able to use what I earned in the way I want to use them (i.e. with my weapon of choice)...
Anyway, like I said, I've said to much...I want to see what other people think for awhile...It's not my voice that counts, but all our voices that I represent...But I'll still pipe in to drop a hint every so often...or have I already...
cause I can see now they endless nerf that will come once commando starts using high damage modifier specials with weapons that have very high max damage stats (Even with AP0 a 1k max damage flamer will outdamage a 600 max damage ap3 rifle even when both use a 3.5x damage modifier special O.o )..
Oh and to illustrate to the poster above garvin's post on how good commando is when it can combine small arms and heavy weapons:
My template was Mcommando with 4.4.0.3 rifleman and tka 4.0.0.4.
I used an accuracy experimented jawa ion rifle (+45 acc @ 40m) and an accuracy experimented E11 rifle (+90 acc @40m).
The rifleman mods gave me excellent ranged defense (was about 105 when added with commando and tka if i remember right) and they were boosted by the rifleman's take cover ability if i used it. I had sniper shot (DB's incap people from range) and great speed and accuracy with my rifles (with my accuracy experimented rifles i could hit even the dreaded fencer/pistoleer/tka defense stackers easily).
TKA gave me the power boost and meditate (theres nothing better than meditate to operate in the field for long time.. aah those wounds ticking off is godly).
Once in coronet, while I was wearing a bone armor set (no docs were buffing so I wore my rancor energy bone armor suit.. just because hehe) I was overt alongside one of my PA members (grouped but not overt).
We were near the spaceport, behind the fountain, trying to decide what rebel base we should go to help defend (imps were attacking several bases). I saw red dots in my radar coming out of the 'port, I targetted one of them, waited a bit to see them come out and fired a rocket at him from 60m.
As the rocket flew I switched to my jawa ion rifle and did /takecover. Rocket hit, instantly incapacitating the target (had no armor no buffs) and injuring the other 3 guys next to him. /snipershot the db'd guy which i still had targetted, quick-targetted the next hostile player, and did the rifleman AOE dizzy attack, hit them all with the dizzy, at this point they began to spread out (this all happened in like 6 seconds, the poor SOBs were still trying to figure out what had happened) so I fire off supression fire 1 (ranged support), got 1 of them to kneel and the dizzy knocked him on his back when he tried to stand up, as this guy flopped I headshotted the 2nd guy to death and /db'd him.. the 3rd guy at this point had seen me and was firing back at me with a carbine..but he was missing since my ranged defense was high AND i was in /takecover. Threw a thermal grenade at the guy that was knocked down, he went incap..waited the horrido grenade timer and /snipershot him too. 3 down 1 to go.
The carbine guy ran towards me, and brought out a sword..so I stood up breaking the /take cover and got my flamethrower out, did a flamesingle2 on him (he had full compo) and hit burst run and began to run away from him. Did /supresionfire with the flamethrower as he followed, shot him like 5 times before one of the supressions made him kneel & fired a 2nd rocket at him. He incap'd. /snipershot.
Thats the kind of combo the commando can do with small arms and using the heavy weapons as the hard punchers. If I had fired at them with just rifle I wouldve been dead, it was the rocket and the grenade that let me do instant high damage on them (plus the explosions do provide a lot of distraction) that let me whack them before they could clear their combat Queue and hit their stimpacks.