Commando Archive
Thread: My idea on hearing just a word of having riffleman skills work with commando!
Message Edited by garvin on 09-19-2004 03:25 PM
garvin wrote:
First off...don't read to much into what I'm about to say...they are only examples andNOT specifics taken out of the Revamp docs (figured maybe I should start using disclaimers...lol)...
When it comes to dependencies...think of it this way...Imagine Commando being a profession that has everything it needs...Defenses both Melee and Ranged, Accuracy, Speed, andHeavy Damage specials that are just fast enough to compete with other high DPS professions. But also imagine that Commandos lack one thing, ranged specials...so for 169 pts you get all that I mentioned, but you still lack one important aspect, Ranged specials...You have great specials, but they are restricted to Melee Range...
Now imagine you can fill that one remaining hole by taking up Rifleman or Pistoleer or Carbineer or even Smuggler to gain ranged specials to use with your FT, HAR or LP if you so choose...the higher youdabble in those professions, the better those ranged specials will work with your FT, HAR or LP (hence a Rifleman Dabbler would not be as good as a Master Rifleman...same with Commando Vs. Master Commando)...and as a bonus, while dabbling those other professions, you've made some improvements to your own specials and abilities back home, there by making yourself a better Commando...The higher you go, the better those benefits become...You now have filled that one hole...you were quite cabable before, but no you are even better of because you filled a void (note, the void doesn't mean that you were dependent on another group, just that by choice, you decided you wanted to fill that void)...
From this example, you can see that before the Commando dabbled, they weren't weak...they had everything they needed to be comparable...but by dabbling they ENHANCED what they have...
With all that, most Commandos would easily dabble for those ranged specials knowing it will "Complete" them and in the process, make them overall a better Commando...
Now imagine if you had a choice...Go for those ranged specials OR go for better Melee abilities and make yourself more of an unbreakable tank...Which is better, to do more damage or be able to take more damage? Now throw in a third choice, what if certain other professions had extra abilites that can twist and turn the way combat progresses...would you like to control combat (something that might be very useful to a group you are part of for you to have that ability), gain more offense, gain more defense, etc?
The template possibilities would be greatly enhanced, with extra benefits going to those who reach higher levels within their choosen professions, one way being the overall effectiveness of their specials...
When I bring up the idea of cross profession special sharing, that the "expanded" idea I had in mind...The more you dabble beyond your original profession, the better you become and it all centers on what direction you think IS better...
If this was the case, I might even see myself having different templates for different situations...
Message Edited by garvin on 09-19-2004 03:25 PM
lol now thats uber
Novock wrote:
Sounds good to me, interesting too. Last ditch with a flamethrower .... ihave one thing to say to that.... yeah baby!!
Cool Garvin you got me stoked. I've been back and forth mad, angry and out right disgruntle with SOE, but I do have faith in you and I take confidence in your enthusiams for the revamp...... if only they would release those documents
Novock
Master Smuggler/Master Commando
Who need a pistol anywayits the bombdiggidty baby, thats right say hello to my exploding friend...... /det 3.... 2......1 smile for the camera Jedi.
Yeah I don't think i'd still be around if it wasn't for our dope a55 commando dude Garvin. I remember the first time I read one of his posts I began to cry.
garvin wrote:
Now imagine you can fill that one remaining hole by taking up Rifleman or Pistoleer or Carbineer or even Smuggler to gain ranged specials to use with your FT, HAR or LP if you so choose...the higher youdabble in those professions, the better those ranged specials will work with your FT, HAR or LP (hence a Rifleman Dabbler would not be as good as a Master Rifleman...same with Commando Vs. Master Commando)...and as a bonus, while dabbling those other professions, you've made some improvements to your own specials and abilities back home, there by making yourself a better Commando...The higher you go, the better those benefits become...You now have filled that one hole...you were quite cabable before, but no you are even better of because you filled a void (note, the void doesn't mean that you were dependent on another group, just that by choice, you decided you wanted to fill that void)...
Message Edited by garvin on 09-19-2004 03:25 PM
The problem with using ANY specials whilst using a flamer is this: nearly EVERY high level NPC, and nearly all armor has 100 percent, or damn near it, resists to heat.
So, one or more of the following needs to happen:
1. New weapon type...
2. Flamer getting AP2 or 3
3. Changes in armor - this could be anything to a capping on stats, or certifying it to professions (i.e. - a TKM or Fencerwearing comp will be severely hampered, but it doesnt bother a Commando)
Using strafeshot2 with a flamer (in its current configuration) will be akin to a Master Rifleman using SS2 with a DLT20a...
Garv, I have silently studied yours, Tanks, Arjuns, and a couple other correspondents posts regarding these vaunted combatdocs, and I HAVE put two and two together on quite a bit (more than you probably imagine). There are some really cool changes coming, I will admit that. But the minute a revamped character builder is put on the 'net, that will be what the FOTM's flock to. I nailed a few changes in a post I made about a month ago here. Do a quick search...
As far as the upcoming changes in armor (that I foresee in my magic 8 ball), it will be more of the same: TKM can't wear comp...But the TKM "toughness" kicks in, so that he doesnt need it. Good luck hitting the Fencer, with his dodge and light feet. It will all equal the same: TKM with no armor has same toughness of comp armored Commando which equals the defensive attributes of the Fencer...In the end, you hit the TKM for average of 100 dam (the rest is mitigated off by toughness), the Commando's armor protects him so that 100 dam makes it through, and the Fencer tapdances around so that the 100 dam is averaged out...All this is taken into consideration of, say, 10 shots in 10 seconds. Big deal. We will all be same, just different skins.
So I ask everyone this, don't we deserve our own specials and weapons? You say Garvin to give us a new special it would take 7 months... really? ... The whole Jedi system took less than a damn month. Oh yay, i'll have to grind out pistols/carbines/or rifleman to do specials with commando... that makes me happy. Maybe I wouldn't mind so much if I wasn't waiting for the documents.
To tell you the truth I love my Master Commando (with fencer) in pvp even though of course much needs to be fixed. Yes I f*cking said it. I LOVE COMMANDO IN PVP. The only problem I see with commando in pvp is 1. Def stackers 2. no commando specials (i'll explain later) and 3. Doctors healing because I can't usually hit mind with the heavy weapons (of course thats expected).
T21 in pvp and Rocket Launcher in pvp
T21: Armor p: Heavy, Speed: 5.5, Dmg: 500 (energy). dmg after pvp reduc: 75%, 500-375= 125. dmg after specials (times 3?) = 375. DMG ONLY TO MIND. CAPPED SPEED/ACCURACY.
Rocket Launcher: Armor p: Heavy, Speed 5.5 , Dmg: 3200 (Blast). dmg after pvp deduc: 75%, 3200-2400= 800 dmg. NO SPECIALS. 800 dmg. DMG TO HEALTH. NOT CAPPED SPEED/ACCURACY. (misses 50% of the time), (If that person has dodge, counterattack, and block ... further chance to miss, of course def stackers impossible).
As you can see our problem is no special, with if i'm not mistaken does 3 times the dmg. That problem makes us need higher stats for weapons.
I use the rocket launcher and heavy part. beam cannon in pvp and usually I can do 600 damage which isn't bad if they don't have medic or even just the novice. I even have the har weapons sliced and they can get down to 4 speed. Please show me another weapon in the game like that....
Def stackers, Melee tanks are one problem. Even though I have beat a few buffed people without a buff myself by hitting their mind with either the ft or har, we could use a higher % of mind hits (being the only usefull pool right now).
I really do have a problem withthis combat rebalance which really seems to bejust a "hey commandos go get some ranged skills".Sure i'm not telling people NOTto do that, Ithink it's a really greatidea i wish I went commando/ranged myself. But please, in agame like this a profession can't even stand alone? After1 year of playing I'd like somecommando crap to blow up people with. After 1 year of playing I'd like even just a few f*cking COMMANDO specials.
It's going to take too much time to make each profession individual? Please tell me wrong but the commando rebalance seems like it's just going to give us mods. Oh yippy. I think if they're going the "get other professions to improve commando" they should atleast get rid of the pre-reqs so youcan actually pic profs and not waste boxes.
Also whatever happened to devsrealizing that there are people out there with non combat professions? What is a chef commando supposed to do? "Sorry gamer that doesn't want to be uber l33t, you're commando isn't complete." "We won't reward you..." Nice slap in the f*cking face!
I'm sorry I'm ranting but all I really think commando needs is FIXES TO THE ACTUAL COMMANDO PROFESSION.
As some of you probably know, if the devs pull this "grind another profession to complete yours" revamp... no one will stay. I know i'm not staying unless they actually improve each profession to make a balance, and to make each profession be able to STAND BY ITSELF.
Anyone going up pistoleer or carbineer or rifleman and using their weapons in combat... are really fighting as carbineers/pistoleers/riflemen, not commandos.
And the launcher pistol is useless even with master pistoleer. Just because of the AP0.
I dont know if the revamp fixes the acid rifle or changes the commando's horribly nerfed flamethrower or the grenades or the heavy weapons. Whatever it ends up doing, the combat revamp im sure, will not give the commando any capability with the non-commando specific weapons.
So we master marksman to use ranged support4 and pistol4 abilities.. commando has no rifle or carbines as class specific weapons. We do not use unarmed fighting at all.. and saying we need unarmed because commando in the revamp (may) get a sort of attack the HAR/Flamer stock is pointless since pistoleers get their melee attack without needing unarmed 4 as well.
Frankly, commando should have only Ranged Support4 and Exploration4 as prereqs.
tacwraith wrote:
Garvin, one of the problems is that any commando would really have to be a complete idiot to use pistols or carbines or rifles. Marksman skills dont even come close to a fraction of a fraction of capability of their elite counterparts.
Anyone going up pistoleer or carbineer or rifleman and using their weapons in combat... are really fighting as carbineers/pistoleers/riflemen, not commandos.
And the launcher pistol is useless even with master pistoleer. Just because of the AP0.
I dont know if the revamp fixes the acid rifle or changes the commando's horribly nerfed flamethrower or the grenades or the heavy weapons. Whatever it ends up doing, the combat revamp im sure, will not give the commando any capability with the non-commando specific weapons.
So we master marksman to use ranged support4 and pistol4 abilities.. commando has no rifle or carbines as class specific weapons. We do not use unarmed fighting at all.. and saying we need unarmed because commando in the revamp (may) get a sort of attack the HAR/Flamer stock is pointless since pistoleers get their melee attack without needing unarmed 4 as well.
Frankly, commando should have only Ranged Support4 and Exploration4 as prereqs.
Tac I think you might have missed some major parts of my post...I not saying that, with my idea, a commando would use a Rifle, Pistol or Carbine...I'm saying that a Commando would be able to use Rifle, Pistol, or Carbine specials WITH their Commando weapon of choice...and they'd be using their FT speed and accuracy (plus any other enhancements they might get along the way) to work with those specials (so if I wouldn't be as good with a rifle special as a M.Rifleman unless I was a M.Rifleman as well)...Hence, you earned that special by grinding rifleman, you now get to use it with what ever weapon you choose (your best one of course based on what skill mods you have and the weapons abilities....
What would you call a Commando using Rifle Specials with their Flame Thrower? Would they still be a Commando? I think they would be...more so then currently Commandos who take Rifleman and use their T21 as much or more then their FTs...let them use the same Rifleman specials on with the FTs if they so choose...
You are also ASSUMING that Marksman isn't seeing any changes that will make it more useful to us Commandos...Expanding on the idea of cross weapon specials, what if we could take everything we get from ANY marksman tree and use it with ANY of our Commando Weapons...What also if we got a Melee weapon that allowed us to take any Meleespecial we wanted from any MeleeProfession we dabbled in and use it like it was a Melee Commando Special....
I'm getting the idea that you think my idea means we'dstill be using their weapons and not our own...that's not the case...If I spend 250 skill points on all combatprofessions I havein essence earned all those specials I've aquired...Why shouldn't I be able to use all those ranged specials (barring the ones that would be over-powered on our weapons and viceversa) with my choosen professions weapon of choice, be it the FT, the HAR or the LP? Think ofdoing a /lowblow with theFT...or /headshot with the HAR...etc...you earn the special, you decide which weapon to use it with...and most likely you'll choose the best weapon with which you have the best skill mods to back it up...It also allows you to avoid the weapon delay because you wouldn't have to switch weapons to use non-FT specials (those other ranged specials would now work with the FT)...
Message Edited by garvin on 09-20-2004 02:22 PM
Still, I dont like the idea. Yes, it would be good to have access to a lot more specials, but that is just pointless fluff in the long run.
What commando needs is to have its role defined for once AND its weapons and skills tailored accordingly.
IMO we should be the anti-armor and AOE combat specialists. This talk of giving headshot ability to acid rifle and its likes will only end up with other classes whining at the commando & getting them nerfed to hell (again).
No, getting specials from other proffessions will bite commando in the ass, you wait and see. what we need are our very own specials added to the commando tree. Specials designed FOR anti-armor and aoe-specialist combat.
tacwraith wrote:
That makes more sense garvin.
Still, I dont like the idea. Yes, it would be good to have access to a lot more specials, but that is just pointless fluff in the long run.
What commando needs is to have its role defined for once AND its weapons and skills tailored accordingly.
IMO we should be the anti-armor and AOE combat specialists. This talk of giving headshot ability to acid rifle and its likes will only end up with other classes whining at the commando & getting them nerfed to hell (again).
No, getting specials from other proffessions will bite commando in the ass, you wait and see. what we need are our very own specials added to the commando tree. Specials designed FOR anti-armor and aoe-specialist combat.
What IF the commando role is specifically tailored to what Commando gets you for 169 pts...As in, if you got Master Commando and stopped there, you'd perfectly fit the Commando role...Now lets say it's the same for all other professions and their roles, if you stop at Master of that Profession, you fit their role...
Take that idea and think of it this way...What if I want to take my Commando role, and combine/merge/augment/twise/etc. that role with the role of Rifleman...Think back to the different profession roles out there, imagine what happens when you blend those roles into one new super role...
We should not just be Commandos...that would mean we spend 169pt and don't need anything else...If we had our own specials (ranged and melee), defenses that we've been asking for, terraign negotiation, etc, and cost less skill points (as some are requesting less pre-reqs) what would the point be of dabbling other professions? What voids would we be trying to fill? It's silly for any profession to want to be perfect on it's own...Stop thinking of being a 169 pt Commando...Think of skill points like money...You spend $169 to get M.Commando and everything that comes with it...with your $81, you now want to buy more specials, mods, defenses, weapons, etc to further enhance your intial purchase...Who will be the shrewd'est shopper? Why bank that $81...it's burning a hole in your pocket and begging to be spent...
I can tell you that from the revamp docs Commandos will be able to hold their own better post revamp then they can now...But you would have to be crazy if you don't think we'll still have vunerabilities...thinks we lack at...that's where the 81 skill points come in...we use those 81 skill points (or more if you didn't master Commando) to fix the vunerablities...Every profession will experience that same thing...they'll have weaknesses that they'll try to fill and no template will be perfect for every situation...
Look...think about it...what do you expect 169 pts to buy us? It should buy what 169 pts buys any other player...but it should also buy us less then someone who spends 250 pts...I CHALLENGE you all to STOP thinking like 169 pt Commandos...and try to see a world where you are a 250pt Commando...How would you build on that idea? What reasons would you have for spending all of your skill points, and what would it take to make that expenditure ENHANCE your Commando instead of replace it with no Commando weapons and abilties? That's where this idea comes in...You want those ranged specials...GO BUY THEM...If I had them at home already, what would I spend my remaining $81 on? And what would stop people from saying we should have that as well? Terraign Negotiation is a PERFECT example...we don't need it, but people feel we should have it...Why do we need it? To catch those opponents that try and keep out of range? What if we could just buy ranged specials? That sounds perfect to me...But the key is that everything come with a price...Spending that $81 on option A means I have less to spend on option B and that possibly leaves me weak in another area...
We shouldn't expect 169 pts to buy us godhood post revamp...or that it will make us compete on the same level as another player who spent all of their 250 skill points on combat abilities...169 pts vs 250 pts should lose everytime...but a 250 pt Commando vs. a 250pt some other Combat make up should be a fairly even fight with the victory going to whomever use the best tactics for their template and in the fight...Think of it this way...Rock, Paper, Scissors...Rock always beats Scissors, Scissors always beats Paper, but Paper beats Rock...all 3 can beat something, but all 3 can loose as well...