Commando Archive
Thread: My idea on hearing just a word of having riffleman skills work with commando!
tacwraith wrote:
No weiss. The commando in that example I gave is not anywhere near close to what a BH is. Read it again.
The bulk of the commando damage would be done via the heavy weapons. The Small Arms tree is there for 2 reasons:
1) Give commando the ability to fight and hit other elite proffessions with the marksman cert weapons. If you read the description again, there are NO DAMAGE specials in that tree that the commando doesnt already have as master marksman.
In short, imagine a BH firing carbine or pistol while only being able to use ranged support specials. Thats the capability the commando would receive..and its there for flexibility issues, for if a headshot is needed he can switch to a jawa rifle...just like commando can now. Problem is, NOW with master marksman only mods, the commando doesnt have a snowball's chance in hell to hit any elite proffession with that rifle. OTH, with what I posted, the commando will have the chance to fire that headshot1 with his marksman certification rifle and be able to HIT with it. No damage is added to commando by this, only improves the chances of hitting with the weapon.
2) Allows the commando to receive additional combat performance in either rifles pistols or carbines by taking up boxes in those proffessions. Just the same as a BH can take up pistoleer or Carbineer and receive excellent combat benefits from it.
The HAR and flamer have horrible accuracy at mid and long ranges, as they should have. Thats why commando has to have the small arms tree. However, the commando does have the choice of remaining long range via rifle/carbine fire and using rocket launcher and grenades to deal damage, or go in close and dirty with HAR/Flamer.
No matter what the outcome, any elite prof will outdamage the commando when using small arms. But no proffession will outdamage commando via AOE because our RL's and HAR/FLAMER should be the heaviest damage with long delay weapons in the game.
The way i see the commando should be in the game is a guy that uses the small arms and be competent with them, ,but who has the ability to at any given time hit an opponent with one very high damage AOE hit...but have a long delay before he can fire again. Use the heavy weapons as the KO uppercut in the boxing fight, the small arms as the small,fast punches to wear the other guy down. Thats how I see it.
Message Edited by tacwraith on 09-20-2004 10:43 PM
But like I said I didn't get commando to use small weapons like pistols, carbines and rifles... I think like most people I got Master Commando for the heavy weapons / high damage. Yeah I use rocket launchers and heavy particle beam cannons in pvp. and Grenades. That is the only reason that differienticates us from all the other ranged combat professions. You want commando's to get their power spread out to regular small weapons and heavy weapons? If they do that neither one will be that great.
I'm not getting the Master Commando box to carry around any other non commando weapons... What you've described is a pistoleer or something withoutthe defense andtwo rows of heavy weapons..."Small fast punches?"... we're the big punch guys.
And with the heavy weapons, I don't think they should have good accuracy. I think they should stay right where they are. The only problems is when we try and fight a def stacker. And if i'm not mistaken HAR's have almost impossible to hit accuracy close up.
Really what's so wrong with heavy weapons that we need to get small weapons? Can't we focus on what we love? Big weapons with big exploisions with big damage?
tacwraith wrote:
Lol garv. I just hope you dont mean that if we have rifleman specials we should be able to use them with the HAR or the Flamethrower...
cause I can see now they endless nerf that will come once commando starts using high damage modifier specials with weapons that have very high max damage stats (Even with AP0 a 1k max damage flamer will outdamage a 600 max damage ap3 rifle even when both use a 3.5x damage modifier special O.o )..
Tac...I think you are again completely missing what I have been saying...You need to do 2 things for me in the following order:
1) Write down every weapon and damge formula you know...include on there armor absorption and HAM costs...got all that written down? Good...proceed to step 2...
2) Rip it up...burn it...and blow the the ashes away...
Everything you said in your post is Null because all of that has already been stated to be GONE!!! As I've said repeatedly the devs are redoing all...ALL...of the weapon stats, damage formulas, etc...It's all changing...EVEN AP is changing...so you can't base ANY argument on ANY current stat or formula...
AND YES...I am saying that you'd be able to use Rifleman specials on a FlameThrower or HAR if we have Rifleman specials...Why not? (and for the love of god, please don't quote some current stat, formula or damage number because they mean NOTHING!!!)...Don't think of every special belonging to the profession they came from...Think of every profession having specials that will work with various weapons, and they are GEARED to work that way based on the NEW formulas and weapon stats in game...So, in essence, if I want ranged specials, I'll go shop for them, but if I'm happy with my Melee range specials, then I'll focus my shopping on other things I need....
To better understand all this I think you need to read some of my other posts in other threads...it will make much more sense if you do...and if you GET WHAT I AM SAYING you will really like this idea...I know you will, but you have to PUT IT ALL TOGETHER!!!!
I didn't want to post again for awhile, but I had to try to explain this a bit better for you Tac...I feel like you've come into the discuss a bit late so I can understand why you are missing what you are missing...but to make this work you have to stop thinking with what we have today and try and think with what we may have down the road...you've got to LET GO!!!
However, remember the flamethrower and HAR do less damage than any of the other elite weapons (ap0, range limitations, delay and to boot the nerf to the flame dot + it being curable via foods/items + high heat resists on any half assed armor).
You are then left with weapons who, even if SOE fixes the helluva outta them, will do high damage with a big delay in the form of rockets and grenades and which make you stop in your tracks to fire AND that cannot target the same ham bar (33% chance of hitting same ham bar per shot..thats really bad).
Im just advocating a proffession that does use the big guns to do big damage, but that is still capable of backing up his high damage high delay firepower with small arms to fit whatever the combat situation requires.
If you fight a player and fire a rocket at him and take out 2/3rds of his health bar, chances are the next rocket will hit his action or mind..and by then the guy will either heal himself or shooting you back for higher damage per second than you can. OTH, if you fire the rocket and see the health bar go down, you can switch to pistol and target his critical ham bar and have a much better chance of taking him down.
Currently this is impossible because master marksman accuracy mods, even with a highly accurate pistol, will not beat the defenses of any elite combat proffession, so you will miss a lot and that will cost you the fight. OTH, if, like BH's , we had accuracy mods and speed mods for the marksman weapons we COULD target the ham bar with the marksman specials and HIT with them. Even though its a 1.5x damage modifier compared to a 3.2x damage modifier (i think) for pistoleer chest shot, its still better than dealing NO damage because you didnt hit them.
Versatility via small arms and firepower via heavy weapons.
edit: holy bovine turds Garvin! Just to think SOE redid the whole thing... O.o I just hope its not another completely new way to screw up the game. Aya yay.
Message Edited by tacwraith on 09-21-2004 12:03 AM
Some other things to consider:
Assuming all skill points invested equal, it should be the case that a Master Pistoleer / Carbineer / Rifleman will beat anyone fighting them using a Pistol / Carbine / Rifle but a different template. It should also be that a Master Pistoleer beats a 0/0/4/0 BH who has no other skills. Here's the kicker. The professions don't have only 70 point templates or whatever, they have 250 point ones. We know this. Now the Master Pistoleer can choose to specialise totally in pistols, taking up Smuggler and BH. They'll rock anyone in a pistol duel. But not everyone uses pistols. That "Pistol King" template has a serious weakness to meleers. The BH meanwhile can master BH, and dabble in Pistol and Carbines, or maybe also in melee or rifle. Assuming all the templates have equal skill points, they should be equal. This isn't the case now, and is why the revamp is happening. Trying to put this in words here...
Currently, Commando templates pretty much suck. There's not much you can do. You can Master Commando and anything else that you take will pretty much be either passive defences or weapons that you end up using over your Commando weapons. What is meant by "250 Skill Point" Commandos is Commandos where the central part of the template is the Commando skills. Currently, BH has shadows of this. An MBH is decent on its own, and can dabble to specialise in a specific weapon type or take up extra defence in melee. They can be the Pistol King with some Carbine to fall back on for States, they can be the Carbine King with Pistoleer to fall back on for some extra Damage types, or they can stay MBH and be sufficient damage wise, but take up melee skills to tank better, or even take up some medic. A 250 Skill Point Commando will be one where Commando is central. Commando will be formidable on it's own, but able to specialise and diversify , as there will be many options available to enhance those Commando skills which are given. Exactly what, I can't say. I've not seen the CR Docs or been given any special information by anyone.
What's my point? Well, Combat is changing. All of it. The way armour works, the way specials work, HAM, AP, everything. You can't say what Commando should be in the new system when no-one knows what it's going to be yet. The new revamp hasn't been playtested so even if the revamp was handed to people, that's not what would hit live. This profession has some excellent and dedicated testers going into the sandbox, and we will report back what's happening, and how everything will be affected. But not until we get in there and actually test it.
Final thing to remember: When we're done, Commandos are gonna rock. Hardcore
garvin wrote:
Tac...I think you are again completely missing what I have been saying...You need to do 2 things for me in the following order:
1) Write down every weapon and damge formula you know...include on there armor absorption and HAM costs...got all that written down? Good...proceed to step 2...
2) Rip it up...burn it...and blow the the ashes away...
Everything you said in your post is Null because all of that has already been stated to be GONE!!! As I've said repeatedly the devs are redoing all...ALL...of the weapon stats, damage formulas, etc...It's all changing...EVEN AP is changing...so you can't base ANY argument on ANY current stat or formula...
AND YES...I am saying that you'd be able to use Rifleman specials on a FlameThrower or HAR if we have Rifleman specials...Why not? (and for the love of god, please don't quote some current stat, formula or damage number because they mean NOTHING!!!)...Don't think of every special belonging to the profession they came from...Think of every profession having specials that will work with various weapons, and they are GEARED to work that way based on the NEW formulas and weapon stats in game...So, in essence, if I want ranged specials, I'll go shop for them, but if I'm happy with my Melee range specials, then I'll focus my shopping on other things I need....
To better understand all this I think you need to read some of my other posts in other threads...it will make much more sense if you do...and if you GET WHAT I AM SAYING you will really like this idea...I know you will, but you have to PUT IT ALL TOGETHER!!!!
I didn't want to post again for awhile, but I had to try to explain this a bit better for you Tac...I feel like you've come into the discuss a bit late so I can understand why you are missing what you are missing...but to make this work you have to stop thinking with what we have today and try and think with what we may have down the road...you've got to LET GO!!!
Until I read this, I was all set to post about how I really did not like this idea and that I had spent 169 skill points to become the baddest short-range damage dealer out there. And I was really concerned that I was being forced (as I am now) to spend even more SP's to try and make a viable profession, when other elite's go for less and get better viability.
I think I see where Garvin is coming from here and maybe grabbed a glimpse at what he's getting at. (Garvin, you don't have to respond to this)
The devs have said repeatedly that they want to see more specialization in the roles that individuals play. Riflemen stay at range and fire, Carbineers at mid-range, and Pistols deadly in the near melee range. What if instead of being a Rifleman, you choose instead to have your character be really good at Range? You take some of the Long-Range attack tree. What if you want to be able to attack many targets at short range very quickly? You take the Short-Range attack tree.
What could be coming in the revamp is a total re-work of the way specials work with different weapons and different classes. So, we could choose to be a Commando first, but a Commando that wants to specialize in longer-range attacks. So you take the Long-Range attack tree off of Marksman and can get specials that relate specifically to long-range attacks. And if you want to be the ultimate Short-Range fighter, you take the Short-Range tree and combine very fast attacks with your FlameThrower cert from the Commando tree.
I'm still hoping out that the CR is very nice to us in defenses and fixed specials and certs for our weapons. (Maybe also moving the ideal range for grenades out of the blast radius?).
Keepup the good work Garvin. I know you're doing the best you can!
garvin wrote:
Besides...we are the Weapon Masters of SWG...why shouldn't all their specials work with our weapons IF we trained in their profession? Wouldn't that make dabbling more worthwhile for a Commando? If you need a 64m ranged special to make yourself a better Commando, go and get it...
Dude, you're smoking crack. I've never seen a correspondant propose such a ridiculous idea in my life.
I'm sorry, but this is the absolute worst idea I've ever heard yet. If I'm a carbineer and train rifles, should I get conceal shot, flurry shot or even strafe shot 2?? I mean strafe shot 2 on a flamer... NO. Just say NO to drugs.
I most definitely disagree with this proposal and I hope it falls flat.
Areriye wrote:
garvin wrote:
Besides...we are the Weapon Masters of SWG...why shouldn't all their specials work with our weapons IF we trained in their profession? Wouldn't that make dabbling more worthwhile for a Commando? If you need a 64m ranged special to make yourself a better Commando, go and get it...
Dude, you're smoking crack. I've never seen a correspondant propose such a ridiculous idea in my life.
I'm sorry, but this is the absolute worst idea I've ever heard yet. If I'm a carbineer and train rifles, should I get conceal shot, flurry shot or even strafe shot 2?? I mean strafe shot 2 on a flamer... NO. Just say NO to drugs.
I most definitely disagree with this proposal and I hope it falls flat.
Give me 1 good reason why you shouldn't be able to do a conceal shot, flurry shot or even a strafe shot 2 with your carbine if you earned it...Who says those specials HAVE TO BE done on a rifle? Is it just because the fact that they come in the Rifleman trees that they MUST be rifle specials?
This is a PRIME example of someone who is being narrow minded and not seeing the bigger picture...Look, it's already been stated that certain specials would have to be weapon dependent...like our flame specials would only work on our Flame Thrower...Sniper shots would probably only work with a Rifle...etc...BUT, why limit other more generic specials to one weapon type...it defeats the purpose of dabbling...Why as a Commando would I want to dabble Rifleman to get specials that will ONLY work on a rifle? That seems VERY counter-productive to BEING a commando...BUT...What if I could gain certain "enhancements" by training rifleman, in that the higher I go in rifleman, the better the rifleman granted specials will work on my Commando weapons (if those are the weapons I choose to stick with)...Each profession would still be the masters of their own Specials (they'd be better then the dabblers) but it would open a whole new world of reasons to dabble...
The trick, and I know it's not easy for some, is to STOP thinking of certain specials belonging to the weapon type of the professions they come in...The moment you do that you give Commandos a reason to dabble Carbineer for example, something they may have not thought of before as a good strategy...
Look...I'm not suggesting that we just open up all the ranged specials to all ranged profession weapons...there is a lot more to this then that...it involves tons of changes that make specials more cross weapon friendly...it also requires the new damange, armor, ham, speed, accuracy, etc formulas coming with the revamp...
I'm going to look past the insults because you haven't seen the revamp docs and that sucks...When you do see the revamp docs you'll really wish you didn't post what you said because it will look EXTREMELY narrow-minded and weak...
For a laugh, I might suggest that some Commandos bookmark her post and then come back and read it when the docs finally get released...it should be good for some chuckles (no offense meant...again, it only because you haven't read the docs and that really does suck)...
Message Edited by garvin on 09-22-2004 10:40 AM
garvin wrote:Anyway...this was just an idea that I thought would be fun to discuss based off of something another player brought up in another post...Whether something like this will be in the Revamp or come after the Revamp, well...time will tell...Who knows...maybe the ditracters are right, but then again, they may change their minds when they are able to see the bigger picture...It's really unfair of me to expect anyone to fully see this idea like I see it because you all don't share the same information I know...If you did, this would be a whole different discussion and everyone would be better able to make a definite opinion for or against...
Which is a very nice and diplomatic way of saying you still have no idea when the revamp documents will be released, if they still exist, and that you are being driven mad by the need to tell us what is going on but can't!
I pity your plight, but appreciate your efforts Garvin.
Rien - Master Commando
CorbantisMessage Edited by Latenighter on 09-22-2004 06:28 PM
Message Edited by Latenighter on 09-22-2004 06:30 PM
garvin wrote:
Give me 1 good reason why you shouldn't be able to do a conceal shot, flurry shot or even a strafe shot 2 with your carbine if you earned it...Who says those specials HAVE TO BE done on a rifle? Is it just because the fact that they come in the Rifleman trees that they MUST be rifle specials?
Look at what garvin is saying from the BH/Pistoleer perspective.
Basically, what the revamp...oh, sorry "garvin" is talking about is taking the game combat from what it is today and putting it more in line with what this game was originally meant to be: a skill based game. Last year, people (mainly BHs & Pistoleers) often faught about the "evilness" of dabblers. BHs were upset that pistoleers would become BHs only to gain the BH pistol line (and BHs would pick up some Pistoleer). The biggest argument for dabbling was that SWG was meant to be a skill based game and players should be able to pick up whatever skills they need from other professions to make them more effective. For BH/Pistoleers, it was easy because the two professions shared a weapon line. Pistoleers could pick up a special from the BH profession and use it themselves and vice versa. All garvin is saying is to expand the amount of specials you can learn and apply to your profession's weapons...not limiting Pistoleers to BH pistol specials but possibly carbineer or rifleman specials. We'll just expand what's currently happening today, and it sounds very cool. The whole cookie cutter profession approach really goes out the window.
I will give Garvin the benefit of the doubt though. It stands to reason that stacking defenses were a failure on the part of SOE. These never worked right because they made people unkillable. What Garvin is proposing -- at least I think he is --is that we get rid of stackable defenses and add stackable offenses.
IdrisTycho wrote:
I have to admit that /concealShot with a flamer does seem to make little sense
I mean someone could just follow the trail of scorched earth to find out where the shot came from!
So instead of being able to get 125 melee defense because of fencer templates, I get the melee defense of whatever profession owns the weapon I hold, but I get to use any special that I have acquired from any tree. Sounds intriguing.
Not really...stackable defense will be covered pretty much in the Armor and HAM revamps...it will all come down to how damage is processed with the new formulas...so stacking will have to be tested on the Sandbox to prevent uber defense templates (if they will even still be possible)...
And I'm not really thinking of "stackable" offense...think of it like a playing card game...I have my main character with his or her main skills...every expanison pack I buy has the potential of adding new abilities, skills and enhancements to my main character, while some cards will have no effect...
It's more like, the more you dabble, the more specials you can add to your pool...With this idea some folks would go special happy trying to get every single cool high powered specials they could...but other more tactical players would "shop" conservatively making sure they had the right type of mods to use those specials to a higher potential while also balancing their defense so they can last to use those specials...
Anyway...this was just an idea that I thought would be fun to discuss based off of something another player brought up in another post...Whether something like this will be in the Revamp or come after the Revamp, well...time will tell...Who knows...maybe the ditracters are right, but then again, they may change their minds when they are able to see the bigger picture...It's really unfair of me to expect anyone to fully see this idea like I see it because you all don't share the same information I know...If you did, this would be a whole different discussion and everyone would be better able to make a definite opinion for or against...