Commando Archive

Yes hypno, you are getting at prety much what I was talking about but Tac just now made a good point to me. There is no FT accuracyy mods already there when you start commando so Id say Tac is right, we cannot forsake the novice commandos to have to get all that to start.

So Tac, I would say your idea of moving the DOT to master would probably be the best route. What we need to do though to get people to not think that we are saying nerf is run some tests to show how important the frontloaded damage is, and how much more the DOT does for you and where it would just be a good bonus for masters.

The obvious thing about the DOT is that it gets past resists. Dablers would not like this but hey, every ranged profession has diferent damage type weapons to get around this so maybe the HAR should be on the same branch as the FT so the flame 4 dabler geets it to as their way around the resists instead of the DOT. Of course, the HAR would have to be fixed first and they said befor they cant do that but I dont believe them.

So overview of what Im saying, masters get DOT so novice commandos still get all the XP gathering power they have now and have something to strive for master. HAR fixed and on the same line as FT to try to keep flame 4 dablers happy by giving them another damage type to eliminate some of the need of the DOT. That would leave an open skill line. Heh, you know Id like LP skills but that would be another topic all together and one we've all had time and time again.

OK, so flame 4 guys. Would you accept losing the DOT if the HAR was a FT clone (and worked right) and in the skill line you already have? No need to get offensive. If we talk things out intelligently we probably could work out something that all of us would be happy with. This might take focus off the FT also if people saw the HAR in its place every now and then.

We still need to show the initial damage of the FT over time in comparrison to the DOT. Id say against things without 100% heat resist f we would use the HAR as an alternative to the DOT, and until the HAR works, we cant really do a full demonstration but we could show the initial hit of the HAR against high heat resist creatures even if it may end painfully. lol

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TechnoHic wrote:

Yes hypno, you are getting at prety much what I was talking about but Tac just now made a good point to me. There is no FT accuracyy mods already there when you start commando so Id say Tac is right, we cannot forsake the novice commandos to have to get all that to start.

So Tac, I would say your idea of moving the DOT to master would probably be the best route. What we need to do though to get people to not think that we are saying nerf is run some tests to show how important the frontloaded damage is, and how much more the DOT does for you and where it would just be a good bonus for masters.

The obvious thing about the DOT is that it gets past resists. Dablers would not like this but hey, every ranged profession has diferent damage type weapons to get around this so maybe the HAR should be on the same branch as the FT so the flame 4 dabler geets it to as their way around the resists instead of the DOT. Of course, the HAR would have to be fixed first and they said befor they cant do that but I dont believe them.

So overview of what Im saying, masters get DOT so novice commandos still get all the XP gathering power they have now and have something to strive for master. HAR fixed and on the same line as FT to try to keep flame 4 dablers happy by giving them another damage type to eliminate some of the need of the DOT. That would leave an open skill line. Heh, you know Id like LP skills but that would be another topic all together and one we've all had time and time again.

OK, so flame 4 guys. Would you accept losing the DOT if the HAR was a FT clone (and worked right) and in the skill line you already have? No need to get offensive. If we talk things out intelligently we probably could work out something that all of us would be happy with. This might take focus off the FT also if people saw the HAR in its place every now and then.

We still need to show the initial damage of the FT over time in comparrison to the DOT. Id say against things without 100% heat resist f we would use the HAR as an alternative to the DOT, and until the HAR works, we cant really do a full demonstration but we could show the initial hit of the HAR against high heat resist creatures even if it may end painfully. lol

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i tell you what,ill quit dabbling commando if people quit dabbling TKA for knockdown and meditate.and god forbid people dont dabble medic because Stim Bs are too **edit** powerfull.

you want to move trhe DOTs to master fine move every proffessions DOTs to master at the same time and move TKA knockdown and wound healing ability to master.

every proffession has its pet peevs on dabblers commandos arent special,this system was designed for cross training.

of course the master commandos wouldnt want them revamping the FT over moving the DOTs to master,because they are already master.and probably used the current system to get to master.i would rather see the FT keep its speed and actually lower the damage then to lose the DOTs.give the acid rifle a DOT if it doesnt have one or it doesnt work.

what we have here is a case of im master now and all you subhumans below me dont deserve what i had on my way up the tree.this has got to be one of the more selfish things most masters of proffessions do.lighten up guys your world wont blow up if they actually fix the weapons rather then totally screwing the flame line.

TechnoHic:

While I understand your point, I don't understand the general concept.

There seems to be this notion that ALL fighting classes should ultimately do the same damage. I think that's a ridiculous idea.

Let's face it, some fighters are better than others. Grapplers always win the "toughest man" contests. A sniper may be deadly at 800 feet, but they shouldn't be so tough at 3 feet.

Commandos are the "brute force" class of SWG, as I see it. Some guy who is a master with a pistol still shouldn't do the damage of someone wielding a flamethrower or a rocket. And if you're telling me a master TKA should do the same damage as a guy launching rockets at you, well, I just don't get it.

We have one of the toughest roads to obtain our class, with both Master Marksman and UA4 required. I've done quite a few classes, and ours is easily one of the harder ones to get. Reward SHOULD coincide with effort. I could get to Novice Pistoleer in what, a day?

I guess I just think that this constant "we have to even everyone out" idea just doesn't sit well with me. Every class has their place in a hunt or group or in game. Architects don't hit as hard as me, why should a Pistoleer or a Rifleman either?

I would agree with you, but at the same time I feel that someone who is a masterat any combat profession, it should mean something. While a master pistoleer IMO should be beaten by a master commando, I think they should beat someone with just the FT line, not through raw power or damage over time, but with accuracy and a wide variety of specials to use as tactics. Im not saying that a pistoleer cant win either, but I am saying they have the same dificulty with a master as they do a flame dabler and with all these people using the FT as their single end all weapon, it brings crys of nerf our way.

As far as dropping the damage and leaving the DOT? You would be insane to try that. God, I treally want to get those numbers done when I get a chance. If you have something other than the FT with a diferent damge type then that takes care of high heat resists in a diferent way than the DOTs. That being said, fight something with no heat resists. The damage you do over time for DOT pales in comparrison to initial damage. The only way to get around this would be to stack the DOTs but by the time you fire each one and get it to start, youd be at about 15k damage from your initial damge. The DOT is just a bonus after that, helping you get there faster, but by the time you could stack DOTs the no-heat resist creature will probably be dead. If its high heat, use the HAR (if its fixed as I recomend is first order of business). Both high heat and high acid? Thats where we need the LP to work for us and no not in the same line. High resist to all 3? Hope you got HWs.

no need for the smart arse remarks as far as spoon feeding me.

you didnt adress my issue of moving every other proffessions DOT shots to master.nobody is doing that so why should commandos be special?

and as far as force of will,even if it does work.you get shot again as soon as you stand up so it doesnt matter.FOW is about usless in PvP.

and as far as a commando should be able to always beat a master gunfighter.the day SOE lets anything happen to their baby(blaster users)everyone will be a jedi.

try keeping it a debate and not insinuating somone is a retard.

and as far as a master commando and a grenadeer being a 50/50 chance fight.no crap your both using the same **edit** weapon.if you shot said grenedeer with a rocket launcher at 64m instead of closing to flame single2 range like a goof then it wouldnt be a 50/50 chance.use your skills you have as master(like your other weapons)if the other weapons arent broke like you say use them.TKM arent gonna use the same specials a TKmonk is going to use or even a novice.so why would you use the same weapon when you have more at out disposal.

what makes a master commando better at using a flame thrower then somone that dedicates themselves to just that weapon?nothing because master commandos are also scecialized in using other weapons.thats why they arent better at using it is all i can think of.if flame thrower was the only weapon in the commando tree.then yes i can see a significant difference between a master and a single column "dabbler" as you call them.the reason why a master TKA/Master gunfighter and master rifleman can cream a dabbler in their proffession.is they are only using 1 weapon.the whole **edit** tree is based off of one weapon.

your still comparing apples to oranges.look at it this way is a master marksman any better at using a pistol then a person that goes to pistols 4?probably not UNLESS he uses all the weapons at his disposal.try looking at it from that angle once.

the flame tree is just that dedicated to the flame thrower,as is the HAR tree.you get better with that weapon the ferther up THAT tree you go.you chose to be master commando,you chose to diversify your weapons.for god sakes diversify.

need a bigger spoon..

"nobody is doing that so why should commandos be special?"

because commando is special because nobody else has a wound+ham damage+fast ticking dot all in one. a CM has to apply a poison AND a disease to get the same effect we do in 1 hit, but cm poison/disease does not do 9k damage upfront.

other classes have bleeds, which start ticking in twice the time the commando fire dot starts to tick, does no wound damage and do about 1/3rd the ham damage.

refer to BH's eyeshot getting moved to master for another classes' 'special' ability getting moved to master.

"and as far as force of will,even if it does work.you get shot again as soon as you stand up so it doesnt matter.FOW is about usless in PvP."

tell that to almost every single opponent i was able to FOW + torch down in 1 hit when FOW worked. or when i wasmaster tkasi, FOW and kd+dizzy (balance4 attack) them and win.FYI, FOW has a chance of either getting you up with half your ham bars healed (and big wounds), or with little ham healed but no wounds or in -between.. 1/4th your hams healed with a small amount of wounds.

"and as far as a commando should be able to always beat a master gunfighter"

that i disagree with *waves spoon in front of techno*

master pistoleer will and should beat the commando as long as the pistoleer stays out of flamer range. if we hit the pistoleer with a heavy weapon or grenade or normal shot with har/fireball it'll be sheer luck since those weapons have ZERO on -the-move accuracy mods. Pistoleer does...loads of it.

This kind of thinking ruined the MCH class. Ifought it in these forums with every bone in my body.Now those guys, me included, are masters of nothing.

Take it from someone who knows - avoid giving an inch of ground on this. You will regret it later.

And don't listen to any "compromisers' like these guys telling you it's "fair." It's a game, it's not supposed to be fair. It's supposed to be fun.

"and as far as a master commando and a grenadeer being a 50/50 chance fight.no crap your both using the same **edit** weapon"

thats the point goofy.

"if you shot said grenedeer with a rocket launcher at 64m instead of closing to flame single2 range like a goof then it wouldnt be a 50/50 chance"

i could also pray to mother theresato make the grenadeer's client crash so i could win.

Doing that would give victory to the grenadeer (which would be charging ME since he dont have heavy weapon mods)...for the heavy weapons miss almost every shot against a moving target...not to mention id be giving the grenadeer a nice 6 second window for him to flame me, since i cant move because the standing-up animation takes about 2 seconds.

if the grenadeer wears composite or padded, he will survive the rocket shot. heck most people in pvp survive it. and then the flamer duel comes into play. I may win since he'd hurt..but guess what goof, he will torch me as i torch him, we both die ..him probably from the initial damage plus first tick of the dot, and I from the damage plus 2 or3 ticks of the fire dot. either way, the grenadeer still performs exactly like a master , firepower wise, when using a flamethrower.

*searches for a spatula*

"This kind of thinking ruined the MCH class"

ruined? sorry bud, but before patch I could face an MCH with 3 of his highest pets and royally own him (if he wasnt a grenadeer dabbler on top of that). and yes, that was when the commando had the 2.5x multiplier on top.. id just approach with kinetic armor, unarmed, on burst run and torch him and switch back to unarmed as his 3 pets were chasing me. before I was teras kasi.

now MCH's kill me so fast its just not funny, being master commando, tka 4.0.0.4 and rifleman 4.3.0.4.a pet with high poison, a pet with kd or posture down and a pet with high damage melee attacks and attack rating. And theres no way I can kill all 3 before they screw me (poison and kd/posture attack) and then i have to face the MCH with his own combat skills.

its hard to get fixed in line with other combat classes when ch's were the virtual masters of pve (they were kinda useless in pvp back then).

but now, seeing a master ch that KNOWS what he is doing, is amazing. nothing sweeter than a poison critter and a tank/damage critter killing a rancor while the owner adds his own damage. they kill faster than I can.

Tac, I see your point and agree in sorts, however you misunderstand parts of what I am saying.

Speed and accuracy bonuses should be in the same tree. All weapons will be getting speed and accuracy bonuses at the same time as you level up in that tree... so you will be getting faster and more accurate with ALL commando weapons. However,unless you have actually received a certiciation for use in that weapon (tree # 2 lets say), then the speedand accuracy bonuses will bekind of useless for everything except the launcher pistol.

This brings me to the next part,a novice commando will not have access to the flamethrower, as they will not get a certification for it until they get to the top of the weapons certifications tree. It will be similar to the way things are now, because a novice commando misses too much with a flamethrower until they get to box 3 in the line anyways. Any novice commando should be using the launcher pistol until they get to that point, so no big deal. Assuming you throw in some speed and accuracy bonuses for the launcher pistol, and have some specials for it in the special line, it will become a much more useful weapon and be able to carry the novice commando succesfully up to higher levels. Additionally as the novice commando advances they will be gaining accesses to more weapon certifications. A novice commando going for master should be able to relatively easily get 2 boxes filled in each tree across the boards this way, and will in effect have a large variety of weapons at their disposal, a pretty decent speed and accuracy bonus to those weapons, decent defense modifiers, and a smattering of useful specials for the weapons they have.

I think if you take the above into consideration, you will find that the novice commando will not be punished in any way, and will actually have a much more enjoyable time of reaching the level of master.

As for the dabblers, which all the masters seem to be against, and I truly sympathise with the plight, as I was a master commando, and found it so useless that I dropped everything except grenadeer to gain back the skill points for use in other professions. I again stress that the problem is MOSTLY that the dabblers are able to gain nearly total mastery of the commando profession by only mastering 1/4 of the skills. The problem is not that there is one special that is the end all of commando. And the jump from grenadeer to master commando should not make the world of difference for use with the flamethrower. Master commando currently gets an extra special and speed and accuracy bonuses to the flamer for just one more box! One box, that's it. Under the current system the other 3 trees shouldn't make a difference for anybody using a flamethrower, because they have nothing to do with the flamethrower. So if you want there to be a difference between master commando and grenadeer, have the other three trees fixed so that they are useful, don't adjust the the flamethrower line.

Having said all that... I still think my idea of spreading everything would be a much better solution as it takes the currently broken system and instead of trying to apply patches to it, modifies it to reflect the amount of skill points spent.

-Hypnodx

certifying weapons high in the tree would make the proffession pointless. and will severely penalize those going up the proffession. What you are proposing is like making people up the entier marksman weapon tree using a cdef and then giving them access to the other weapons when they get novice elite or the marksman box4 of the weapon. very punishing.I would definetely not enjoy going up the commando tree if i was forced to use just the LP to box4.

"I think if you take the above into consideration, you will find that the novice commando will not be punished in any way, and will actually have a much more enjoyable time of reaching the level of master"

how? being forced to use the launcher pistol (group unfriendly..too much smoke and fps killing explosions) until i can get another weapon certified higher up the tree? Really, thats like unarmed4 vs tka. its a pain in the arse to get to novice tka, then at novice you get the vk cert and a few damage and speed bonuses.. and THEN its sweet as heck. but the unarmed4 just SUCKED. with your system, going up 3 boxes or so of commando would SUCK until you get the other weapon cert (flamer). and after that its sweet. but about 70% of the proffession, as you up it, will be a grinding pain.

"All weapons will be getting speed and accuracy bonuses at the same time as you level up in that tree... so you will be getting faster and more accurate with ALL commando weapons"

what you're saying is how things were during beta. all heavy weapons were tied to a single modifier, 'heavy weapon speed' and 'heavy weapon accuracy'. The problem with that was the heavy weapons were so different in speed and accuracy and damage that some weapons got too little benefit while others got too much. thats why they were split into individual mods (and broke the HAR and grenade mods ). That is why any commando skill tapes you find out there are useless to us, since they all use the old 'heavy weapons' modifiers, not the new ones.

is it impossible for you to reply to somone tac without insulting their intelligence?

good point on the FOW thing though.

my point of the rocket launcher remark is,if the other weapons are working correctly like some claim.use what you have at your disposal instead of relying on a single weapon.master commando is a bloated up version of master marksman,you have 3 different weapons at your disposal.being a master of all deosnt make you any better at it other then speed then somone that masters just that weapon.look at master marksman and any rank 4 ranged user in that tree.there is not much difference.