Commando Archive
Thread: My idea on hearing just a word of having riffleman skills work with commando!
garvin wrote:
What if we expanded on this idea and gave Commandos some type of Melee Abilities...like a Melee weapon or Melee Specials...Something that might work off our Unarmed specials...That we we can use the same cross special abilities with both melee and ranged...we'd be able to "shop" in both Melee and Ranged...
Would that make or break this idea?
No break on the idea from my perspective. In terms of minimizing art and coding efforts for SOE, it would be easiest to do if we were able to use them with FT/HAR/LP equipped. And it would avoid weapon switching delays of these being tied to another weapon. The basic thrust is that we are required to earn the unarmed specials, so we out to be given the ability to USE them while we perform like Commandos.
But I'll never turn down a special heavy weapon carbine with an attached bayonet!
Rien - Master Commando
Corbantis
Latenighter wrote:
And I don't think I tried to reference the Combat Revamp in any way.
Wasn't trying to say you were...
I've tried to stay away from certain discussion types because people might automatically assume anything I say means it's in the Revamp...I'm not confirming or denying anything, just asking folks not to jump to assumptions...
Currently any ideas I throw out are mainly for discussion...they may or may not make it into the Revamp...so don't get your hearts set on something I say...
Hmm, Last Ditch shot with a KraytFlame Thrower... This could mess things up more than help I would think.
garvin wrote:
Latenighter wrote:
garvin wrote:
Ya know I luv ya Skeptic...no worries...
Think about the idea this way as well...What if you are left with 2 options...one where you can enhanced your defenses via TKA/TKM but you give up the offensive ability to get ranged specials...OR...your can enhance your offensive abilities via ranged specials, but you give up your potential Defenses by not being able to get TKA/TKM...That's where strategy comes in...what would be more important to you...what if we gave every Commando that option, the choice of whether they would rather have better ranged specials to use with thier Commando weapons or would they rather be close range tanks with higher defenses but little or no ranged specials (only Melee Range specials)...
Which template would you rather play? Or would you try to meet somewhere in the middle of the 2?
Right there we'd create Commandos with different "specialization" possibilities...Not all Commandos would look and feel the same...
Message Edited by garvin on 09-17-2004 10:04 AM
Ok. Color me enthusiastic.
If I'm understanding the thrust of this idea, a Commando (and a Commando ONLY) would be able to use the specials dedicated to other weapon classes (pistol, carbine, rifle) with our non consumable heavy weapons (FT, HAR, LP).
Never really said that...just said that with my hypothetical idea, Commandos would be able to use any other profession specials with our Heavy (Non-Consumbale)weapons, and of our Specials wouldn't work on theirs...
This idea could possibly be expanded for other professions to share specials...who knows...But Commando specials would be off limits because of their power and the fact that we are a higher costing hybrid profession...to use Flame specials, you'd have to have a FT equiped...and if that's the case, you'd have to deal in Commando Speed and Accuracy (so you'd have to have more then 1 tree to be as good as a more committed Commando)...
I can see a Rifleman using Carbineer specials and vice versa...heck, they earned the specials, why shouldn't they be able to use them across their various weapons? Would make for some interesting template building and open up some cool possibilities...
But remember, I've said it repeatedly, this is all hypothetical...just because I participated in this discussion does not mean that I'm speaking from my knowledge of the Combat Revamp...I'm just idea generating to see how open or closed you all would be to this idea...
Actually specials like overchage do work with the FT as does suppression, but they totally suck. I don't like this whole mixing specials up things, cause somebody is gonna find a way to make some uber attack or attacks.
Commandos should have decent defenses. Right now we are about as bad as they come. What I would like to see is that we have lots of defenses to everything but they aren't as strong others making us a kind of well rouned defense profession. This way we can really be the front guys, but maybe that rifleman has better defenses than us in an area so he'll be the main tank and will be the second. The Commando should be the well rounded suitable to all sorts of things kind of person but any other master will most certainly be better than us in there special defense areas.
We could still be the heavy hitters too. What we need is weapons to deal with hard to kill stuff like turrets and ones to deal with infantry like the FT. When it comes to fighting NPCs we are the tanks because will be resistant somewhat to all their damages. However the FT would only be good against NPCs and some creatures.
Well now I'm confused. See Garvin the problem with being all offense is we can't be tanks and will be shot down in seconds. However if we have too good defenses and our heavy hitters will be overpowered. The idea of having well rounded defnses to just abot everything needs to be good, but not to good. Maybe we just get a bunch of +20 pluses or whatever. I don't I'm caught between dealing good damage and having good defenses.
CyberData4 wrote:
Honesly, I don't want any defenses. Any. Commando's are suppose to be offensive juggernauts.When we got our first "fix" we were. But then as other professions got up to master and as crafters were abel to build better weapons, other professions were able to match our damage AND fire faster than us.
I'm opposed to using rifle specials with our heavy weapons. And I really don't see it as a good thing for the profession. We have our weapons and our skills. Those skills are what should aid a commando. Look at it this way: A TKM doesn't have to dabble in Swordsman to do what they do. A Rifleman doesn't have to dabble in pistols to do what they do. The current state of the launcher pistol is a perfect example. It works better with a pistoleer than a master commando. I don't want to see the same thing happen with the HAR and Flamethrower.
Granted there is nothing wrong with dabbling but I don't think it should be mandatory for a profession to have to dabble to use their own weapons correctly.
The flamer simply needs an accuracy boost and increased speed.
The HAR needs increased range and either an acid "burn" that affects the action bar or AP2 and increased speed.
The launcher pistol needs its own specials.
Message Edited by CyberData4 on 09-17-2004 04:38 PM
to be effective, a pistolleer or a carbinneer have to dabble in BH.
Message Edited by Novock on 09-18-2004 02:09 PM
Message Edited by Novock on 09-18-2004 02:13 PM
You're not getting it. A 250 point commando today will be nothing like a 250 point commando post revamp. Pretend for a moment that a Master could take any special from one weapon line (pistols) and turn it into a special for their own weapon line (flamethrower). So, imagine doing eyeshot with a flamethrower.
Gunner_excel wrote:
I dont understand Garvin I am a 250 point commando but unless we get defense then taking my TKM and putting in to anther range proffesion would mean pretty quick death in pvp...
See below...
WeissHengst wrote:
So I ask everyone this, don't we deserve our own specials and weapons? You say Garvin to give us a new special it would take 7 months... really? ... The whole Jedi system took less than a damn month. Oh yay, i'll have to grind out pistols/carbines/or rifleman to do specials with commando... that makes me happy. Maybe I wouldn't mind so much if I wasn't waiting for the documents.
Wrong...do you really think all the Jedi fixes and new material took 1 Month...get real!!!!ALL OF IT first had to be approved byLucas Arts...that includes everyname, dialog, special,etc...It HAD to start at least 4 months before everything even made it to TC2...
To tell you the truth I love my Master Commando (with fencer) in pvp even though of course much needs to be fixed. Yes I f*cking said it. I LOVE COMMANDO IN PVP. The only problem I see with commando in pvp is 1. Def stackers 2. no commando specials (i'll explain later) and 3. Doctors healing because I can't usually hit mind with the heavy weapons (of course thats expected).
T21 in pvp and Rocket Launcher in pvp
T21: Armor p: Heavy, Speed: 5.5, Dmg: 500 (energy). dmg after pvp reduc: 75%, 500-375= 125. dmg after specials (times 3?) = 375. DMG ONLY TO MIND. CAPPED SPEED/ACCURACY.
Rocket Launcher: Armor p: Heavy, Speed 5.5 , Dmg: 3200 (Blast). dmg after pvp deduc: 75%, 3200-2400= 800 dmg. NO SPECIALS. 800 dmg. DMG TO HEALTH. NOT CAPPED SPEED/ACCURACY. (misses 50% of the time), (If that person has dodge, counterattack, and block ... further chance to miss, of course def stackers impossible).
As you can see our problem is no special, with if i'm not mistaken does 3 times the dmg. That problem makes us need higher stats for weapons.
Take a look at your calculations above...there is a HUGE error in them...want to know how to fix that error? Forget EVERYTHING you know...Why? Because the Revamp is reworking all damage, speed, accuracy, HAM, armor, etc formulas...that means even every weapon and special will have to be addressed...Your view is too narrow minded because you are focusing on what you see today, and making predictions for the future...As I've said before, it's the Sandbox that will give us the NEW info so we can make better comparisons...you are also assuming that we aren't getting more speed or accuracythen we currently have or that our FT's are being tweaked...
I use the rocket launcher and heavy part. beam cannon in pvp and usually I can do 600 damage which isn't bad if they don't have medic or even just the novice. I even have the har weapons sliced and they can get down to 4 speed. Please show me another weapon in the game like that....
Ask me that question again WHEN the Revamp hits the Test Servers...
Def stackers, Melee tanks are one problem. Even though I have beat a few buffed people without a buff myself by hitting their mind with either the ft or har, we could use a higher % of mind hits (being the only usefull pool right now).
Again, forget what you know now...BIG changes are coming that effect all aspects of the game...it's not even safe to focus on one part and thing it's going to stay the same...I've said it before...after the revamp, for many this will feel like a new game...
I really do have a problem withthis combat rebalance which really seems to bejust a "hey commandos go get some ranged skills".Sure i'm not telling people NOTto do that, Ithink it's a really greatidea i wish I went commando/ranged myself. But please, in agame like this a profession can't even stand alone? After1 year of playing I'd like somecommando crap to blow up people with. After 1 year of playing I'd like even just a few f*cking COMMANDO specials.
I agree that all of our waiting has sucked, but I disagree that ANY profession should be able to stand alone...Why the heck have a game where you can dabble if EVERY profession can stand alone...and for that matter, why have any difference in any professions if you want them all to complete on the same level...Each profession should have something they excel in and something that they are very vunerable too...The level of both should be determined by skill point cost...if 2 players spend the same amount of skill points in combat pursuits, as best as possible they should exist at the same level no matter what route they go...That is something the Revamp successfully addresses...
It's going to take too much time to make each profession individual? Please tell me wrong but the commando rebalance seems like it's just going to give us mods. Oh yippy. I think if they're going the "get other professions to improve commando" they should atleast get rid of the pre-reqs so youcan actually pic profs and not waste boxes.
NOPE!!! you are assuming and you know what that means....If they got rid of our pre-reqs, why have Commandos at all, heck if you want to be a Commando without the pre-reqs, just take Rifleman...you'll have power (via DPS) and you'll even save more skill points...NO PROFESSION should be individual...just the opposite, EVERY profession SHOULD gain something important from other professions...otherwise we remove a HUGE part the the uniqueness potential of this game...Right now this game has tons of different tempate combinations when you look at spending 250 skill points...after the revamp ALL of those combinations will mean something AND they will focus on making your choosen profession that much stronger...The game will be about spending 250 Skill points...not just spending 169 skill points to get Master Commando and expecting to rule over everyone else...
Also whatever happened to devsrealizing that there are people out there with non combat professions? What is a chef commando supposed to do? "Sorry gamer that doesn't want to be uber l33t, you're commando isn't complete." "We won't reward you..." Nice slap in the f*cking face!
In all my hints I have stressed Combat Professions...I 100% expect a Chef/Commando to be weaker then a Rifleman/Commando ora TKM/Commando...you'd have to be silly not to expect that...Do you really think this would be a good game is a Musician/M.Commando was on the same level as TKM/M.Commando? If the Musician/M.Commando wants to compete better in combat, how about taking more of a COMBAT path? I'm sorry, but suggesting a Chef/Commando would be on the same level is a bit silly don't you think?
I'm sorry I'm ranting but all I really think commando needs is FIXES TO THE ACTUAL COMMANDO PROFESSION.
AND WE ARE GETTING THEM!!!! But is that all you want...let's make some fixes and stop there? Make it so Commandos can spend 169 pts and compete with any Combat player who spends 250 pts? Make us stand alone? Personally I love the idea of ENHANCING my Commando with my remaining skill points instead having to use a T21 if I want to take advantage of my hard work of getting Rifleman...in my idea, I feel like I EARNED those rifleman specials, I should be allowed to use them with what ever weapon I want...that's my REWARD!!!
As some of you probably know, if the devs pull this "grind another profession to complete yours" revamp... no one will stay. I know i'm not staying unless they actually improve each profession to make a balance, and to make each profession be able to STAND BY ITSELF.
NOBODY...and I mean NOBODY has suggested or even hinted that to complete our profession you will HAVE TO grind another profession...if that's what people are getting from my hints that I will not be making any more hints...I have said repeatedly that grinding other professions will ENHANCEyour choosen profession...something that IS NOT done now beyond same mod stacking...once you look back on the current game when the Revamp hits, you'll think, dang things were pathetic back then...Why didn't this game run this way from the start!!!
If they made every profession STAND BY ITSELF I can promise you more people would get bored and leave then anything else...I know I'd leave...it would be BORING...Why have skill points at all if there is no value in spending them...Nobody in this game only has 169 skill points...We spend/grind until we spend ALL of our skill points (or as much as possible)...shouldn't that mean something? Don't look at the game so narrow-minded thinking that 169 pts should be the end all be all...
garvin wrote:
See below...
WeissHengst wrote:
So I ask everyone this, don't we deserve our own specials and weapons? You say Garvin to give us a new special it would take 7 months... really? ... The whole Jedi system took less than a damn month. Oh yay, i'll have to grind out pistols/carbines/or rifleman to do specials with commando... that makes me happy. Maybe I wouldn't mind so much if I wasn't waiting for the documents.
Wrong...do you really think all the Jedi fixes and new material took 1 Month...get real!!!!ALL OF IT first had to be approved byLucas Arts...that includes everyname, dialog, special,etc...It HAD to start at least 4 months before everything even made it to TC2...
To tell you the truth I love my Master Commando (with fencer) in pvp even though of course much needs to be fixed. Yes I f*cking said it. I LOVE COMMANDO IN PVP. The only problem I see with commando in pvp is 1. Def stackers 2. no commando specials (i'll explain later) and 3. Doctors healing because I can't usually hit mind with the heavy weapons (of course thats expected).
T21 in pvp and Rocket Launcher in pvp
T21: Armor p: Heavy, Speed: 5.5, Dmg: 500 (energy). dmg after pvp reduc: 75%, 500-375= 125. dmg after specials (times 3?) = 375. DMG ONLY TO MIND. CAPPED SPEED/ACCURACY.
Rocket Launcher: Armor p: Heavy, Speed 5.5 , Dmg: 3200 (Blast). dmg after pvp deduc: 75%, 3200-2400= 800 dmg. NO SPECIALS. 800 dmg. DMG TO HEALTH. NOT CAPPED SPEED/ACCURACY. (misses 50% of the time), (If that person has dodge, counterattack, and block ... further chance to miss, of course def stackers impossible).
As you can see our problem is no special, with if i'm not mistaken does 3 times the dmg. That problem makes us need higher stats for weapons.
Take a look at your calculations above...there is a HUGE error in them...want to know how to fix that error? Forget EVERYTHING you know...Why? Because the Revamp is reworking all damage, speed, accuracy, HAM, armor, etc formulas...that means even every weapon and special will have to be addressed...Your view is too narrow minded because you are focusing on what you see today, and making predictions for the future...As I've said before, it's the Sandbox that will give us the NEW info so we can make better comparisons...you are also assuming that we aren't getting more speed or accuracythen we currently have or that our FT's are being tweaked...
I use the rocket launcher and heavy part. beam cannon in pvp and usually I can do 600 damage which isn't bad if they don't have medic or even just the novice. I even have the har weapons sliced and they can get down to 4 speed. Please show me another weapon in the game like that....
Ask me that question again WHEN the Revamp hits the Test Servers...
Def stackers, Melee tanks are one problem. Even though I have beat a few buffed people without a buff myself by hitting their mind with either the ft or har, we could use a higher % of mind hits (being the only usefull pool right now).
Again, forget what you know now...BIG changes are coming that effect all aspects of the game...it's not even safe to focus on one part and thing it's going to stay the same...I've said it before...after the revamp, for many this will feel like a new game...
I really do have a problem withthis combat rebalance which really seems to bejust a "hey commandos go get some ranged skills".Sure i'm not telling people NOTto do that, Ithink it's a really greatidea i wish I went commando/ranged myself. But please, in agame like this a profession can't even stand alone? After1 year of playing I'd like somecommando crap to blow up people with. After 1 year of playing I'd like even just a few f*cking COMMANDO specials.
I agree that all of our waiting has sucked, but I disagree that ANY profession should be able to stand alone...Why the heck have a game where you can dabble if EVERY profession can stand alone...and for that matter, why have any difference in any professions if you want them all to complete on the same level...Each profession should have something they excel in and something that they are very vunerable too...The level of both should be determined by skill point cost...if 2 players spend the same amount of skill points in combat pursuits, as best as possible they should exist at the same level no matter what route they go...That is something the Revamp successfully addresses...
It's going to take too much time to make each profession individual? Please tell me wrong but the commando rebalance seems like it's just going to give us mods. Oh yippy. I think if they're going the "get other professions to improve commando" they should atleast get rid of the pre-reqs so youcan actually pic profs and not waste boxes.
NOPE!!! you are assuming and you know what that means....If they got rid of our pre-reqs, why have Commandos at all, heck if you want to be a Commando without the pre-reqs, just take Rifleman...you'll have power (via DPS) and you'll even save more skill points...NO PROFESSION should be individual...just the opposite, EVERY profession SHOULD gain something important from other professions...otherwise we remove a HUGE part the the uniqueness potential of this game...Right now this game has tons of different tempate combinations when you look at spending 250 skill points...after the revamp ALL of those combinations will mean something AND they will focus on making your choosen profession that much stronger...The game will be about spending 250 Skill points...not just spending 169 skill points to get Master Commando and expecting to rule over everyone else...
Also whatever happened to devsrealizing that there are people out there with non combat professions? What is a chef commando supposed to do? "Sorry gamer that doesn't want to be uber l33t, you're commando isn't complete." "We won't reward you..." Nice slap in the f*cking face!
In all my hints I have stressed Combat Professions...I 100% expect a Chef/Commando to be weaker then a Rifleman/Commando ora TKM/Commando...you'd have to be silly not to expect that...Do you really think this would be a good game is a Musician/M.Commando was on the same level as TKM/M.Commando? If the Musician/M.Commando wants to compete better in combat, how about taking more of a COMBAT path? I'm sorry, but suggesting a Chef/Commando would be on the same level is a bit silly don't you think?
I'm sorry I'm ranting but all I really think commando needs is FIXES TO THE ACTUAL COMMANDO PROFESSION.
AND WE ARE GETTING THEM!!!! But is that all you want...let's make some fixes and stop there? Make it so Commandos can spend 169 pts and compete with any Combat player who spends 250 pts? Make us stand alone? Personally I love the idea of ENHANCING my Commando with my remaining skill points instead having to use a T21 if I want to take advantage of my hard work of getting Rifleman...in my idea, I feel like I EARNED those rifleman specials, I should be allowed to use them with what ever weapon I want...that's my REWARD!!!
As some of you probably know, if the devs pull this "grind another profession to complete yours" revamp... no one will stay. I know i'm not staying unless they actually improve each profession to make a balance, and to make each profession be able to STAND BY ITSELF.
NOBODY...and I mean NOBODY has suggested or even hinted that to complete our profession you will HAVE TO grind another profession...if that's what people are getting from my hints that I will not be making any more hints...I have said repeatedly that grinding other professions will ENHANCEyour choosen profession...something that IS NOT done now beyond same mod stacking...once you look back on the current game when the Revamp hits, you'll think, dang things were pathetic back then...Why didn't this game run this way from the start!!!
If they made every profession STAND BY ITSELF I can promise you more people would get bored and leave then anything else...I know I'd leave...it would be BORING...Why have skill points at all if there is no value in spending them...Nobody in this game only has 169 skill points...We spend/grind until we spend ALL of our skill points (or as much as possible)...shouldn't that mean something? Don't look at the game so narrow-minded thinking that 169 pts should be the end all be all...
I agree, I just want more from the commando profession
Garvin said:
NOBODY...and I mean NOBODY has suggested or even hinted that to complete our profession you will HAVE TO grind another profession...if that's what people are getting from my hints that I will not be making any more hints...I have said repeatedly that grinding other professions will ENHANCEyour choosen profession...something that IS NOT done now beyond same mod stacking...once you look back on the current game when the Revamp hits, you'll think, dang things were pathetic back then...Why didn't this game run this way from the start!!!
Please don't stop making hints I personally love them and thinks its fun little hmm wonder what he 's getting at while we continue to wait for some word from SOE.
On Enhancing the profession I believe you can maybe best display this with the current BH though it may not fit 100% as a perfect example. A Master BH at current can use his/her pistol and pistol specials with nice speed and accuracy. They need no other profession to use successfully their pistol(s) and specials. However if they take smuggler or pistoleer they simply add to their aresonal with additional pistol certs and specials as well as defense etc. I believe if I'm catching your drift this sounds like a good idea. Where it would be a bad idea is if we need another proffession to use our weapons as such is the case with the launcher pistol at current. Seeming we have no real pistol mods we would be dependent upon either BH pistols or pistoleer in order to use it with some effectiveness.
I think I'm following your hints Garvin and if so it sounds good to me as long as the additions are additions and not dependents (such as having to get mods from another porfession to use our own weapon.) I like the sounds of enhancing my commando to meet my own unique preferences which hopefully will be my current template Master Smuggler/Master Commando because I'm ready to blast those sucker BHs who try to apoil my run lol. I'm confident in teh changes when they do make it in because I'm confident in our correspondent. /cheers Garvin
Novock
Master Smuggler/Master Commando
Message Edited by Novock on 09-19-2004 02:47 PM
Novock wrote:
Garvin said:
NOBODY...and I mean NOBODY has suggested or even hinted that to complete our profession you will HAVE TO grind another profession...if that's what people are getting from my hints that I will not be making any more hints...I have said repeatedly that grinding other professions will ENHANCEyour choosen profession...something that IS NOT done now beyond same mod stacking...once you look back on the current game when the Revamp hits, you'll think, dang things were pathetic back then...Why didn't this game run this way from the start!!!
Please don't stop making hints I personally love them and thinks its fun little hmm wonder what he 's getting at while we continue to wait for some word from SOE.
On Enhancing the profession I believe you can maybe best display this with the current BH though it may not fit 100% as a perfect example. A Master BH at current can use his/her pistol and pistol specials with nice speed and accuracy. They need no other profession to use successfully their pistol(s) and specials. However if they take smuggler or pistoleer they simply add to their aresonal with additional pistol certs and specials as well as defense etc. I believe if I'm catching your drift this sounds like a good idea. Where it would be a bad idea is if we need another proffession to use our weapons as such is the case with the launcher pistol at current. Seeming we have no real pistol mods we would be dependent upon either BH pistols or pistoleer in order to use it with some effectiveness.
I think I'm following your hints Garvin and if so it sounds good to me as long as the additions are additions and not dependents (such as having to get mods from another porfession to use our own weapon.) I like the sounds of enhancing my commando to meet my own unique preferences which hopefully will be my current template Master Smuggler/Master Commando because I'm ready to blast those sucker BHs who try to apoil my run lol. I'm confident in teh changes when they do make it in because I'm confident in our correspondent. /cheers Garvin
Novock
Master Smuggler/Master Commando
Message Edited by Novock on 09-19-2004 02:47 PM