Commando Archive
Thread: Dont mean to pick on dablers but really, I think the flame skill mods should be spread out.
After keeping quiet for a while, reading what other people had to say, and considering it, I've changed some of my opinions and ideas. So here's where I'm at now and what I'd like to see...
One tree with all the weapons certifications (novice gets launcher pistol. as you movie up you get, rocket launcher, hpbc, har, flamer, and grendades spread througout)...
One tree with all the speed and accuracy mods (pretty standard spread as you go up this tree)...
One tree with all the specials (keeping them all at about the same level they are right now)...
And one tree with all the Defensive bonuses and whatever else needs to be there.
Master gets bonuses to all trees except no more weapons certifications.
That's be perfect:
Limits the uber dabblers, still make dabbling and option, and give a definate reward for more points invested.
What do you guys think?
Oh yes, and all the weapons need to be working for this to be a viable option.
-hypnodx
hypnodx wrote:
After keeping quiet for a while, reading what other people had to say, and considering it, I've changed some of my opinions and ideas. So here's where I'm at now and what I'd like to see...
One tree with all the weapons certifications (novice gets launcher pistol. as you movie up you get, rocket launcher, hpbc, har, flamer, and grendades spread througout)...
One tree with all the speed and accuracy mods (pretty standard spread as you go up this tree)...
One tree with all the specials (keeping them all at about the same level they are right now)...
And one tree with all the Defensive bonuses and whatever else needs to be there.
Master gets bonuses to all trees except no more weapons certifications.
That's be perfect:
Limits the uber dabblers, still make dabbling and option, and give a definate reward for more points invested.
What do you guys think?
Oh yes, and all the weapons need to be working for this to be a viable option.
-hypnodx
thats not a bad idea,because that is kinda how most of the other proffessions are,TKA for example.you get alot of the special location hits in precision striking.but you gain your damage in the power tree.i think this concept could definatly work.
Madcow's thinking on this is right. Two of my characters are MCHs and I'm thinking about dropping MCH on both of them because it's so darn weak after the latest and greatest mega-nerf. You guys better stop talking this crap about "leveling" out Commando and getting rid of the dabblers, or you will face the same fate as the once-uber but now measley MCH.
You see, there was a dabbling problem in CH, no doubt. But they killed a fly with a hammer. Instead of just "leveling" out the CH tree as you guys blithely talk about, theydidfive other ridiculous things that are really killing off not just CHs but MCHs, too:
1. They nerfed our pets to hell. Graul Maulers, Rancors, even Archane Webmasters are wussies now. Heck, Rancors were bad before, now, they are useless. And Rancors and Webmasters are still CL 50 pets! Only MCHs can call them! And we don't, 'cause they suck! Only Frenzied Grauls are worth anything anymore and they are still extinct. I only have one. (He's not for sale, lol.) We have to buy our pets from BEs, now, too. What a joke!
2. BEs can now make CL 10 pets that anyone can use that are better than what anyone except4/4/4/4 CHs or MCHscan use. That makes the MCH grind even more stupid. It will take you until MCH before you get better pets than a Master Commando can use right out of the box. Read the CH forums, you'll see what I'm talking about.
3. Since BEs can make uber-pets for the masses, why should CHs bother taming pets anymore? You can buy good ones with no muss and no fuss. And forget trying to sell pets. The CL 10 pets in the wild are unbelievably weak and no one wants to buy them anymore. CHs lost a big revenue source in the last patch.
4. The so-called "double-critter" xp bonus was ended. Again, this makes the MCH a long, boring grind, even for power gamers.
5. Who wants creature mounts when you can buy cheap vehicles that are a lot faster?
And you know what? All our MCH nerfs were preceded by two things:
1.Jealous, ignorant gamers crying nerf.
2. "Lambs-to-the-slaughter" MCHs rationalizing,then agreeing with the nerfs, and selling out their class.
I see the same thing happening here and all I can say is you better close ranks and stop this dumb idea before the devs actually take it seriously.
You know as well as I that any change SOE will do to the flamer will be a flat out nerf. Moving speed or accuracy mods to other trees is ridiculous not to mention that it renders a single weapon useless unless you up more than 1 tree. They will either lower the damage so much that using the other weapons will seem like a good thing or they will just apply heat resists to the dots, which is just as bad.
Or they can just move the DOT to the master box.
and yes, the only way you can compare a master to a nonmaster is in pvp-like encounter. stand both master and dabbler face to face, not moving and have them spam their highest damage special at each other, each wearing the same exact armor.
rifleman spamming the master box special will never EVER be outdamaged by a dabbler using headshot3 or flurry2 or flushing shot2.
master pistoleer and carbineer have much higher mods and mitigation than their nonmaster levels (mitigation counts against a weapon that does not hit for 9k damage a pop!).
master tka will cream a tka dabbler, even if he has 4.4.4.4 , just look at the unarmed damage bonus and speed bonuses at master, not to mention an UH3 which does about 50% more damage per hit.
but master commando vs grenadeer? 50-50 chance. If both hit with their single2's they will both die. There's no other way around it. if both wear composite or heat resistant armors, it wont matter if one misses the first shot, hitting with the 2nd shot will still make the one that missed kill the 2nd one.
See, I can live with them reconfiguring the specials - that's perfectly reasonable. I don't think it'll do much to make Master Commando more valuable, though. The other three lines REALLY need to be repaired...
So maybe move the DoT up to Master with 2 new skills(Flame Single 3, Flame Cone 3), shift the Flame Singles and Flame Cones down 1 spot each, and make them just plain damage enhancements...
Tac, you seem to think that that it's a fait accompli that the flamer is gonna get nerfed. Is it on Test Center? Is it even In Concept or In Development?
Even if it is, all Commandos everywhere should be fighting to retain everything they have. You give an inch, they'll take a mile, just like they did with the MCHs and CHs.
tacwraith wrote:
madcow, read my post again. with my tka dabbling i cannot go toe to toe with a master tka in a fistfight. PERIOD.
with my rifleman skillls i cannot go toe to toe with a master rifleman in a rifle fight. PERIOD.
with grenadeer4 you CAN go toe to toe with a master commando. PERIOD.
Do i need to go on?
I thought this wasn't about pvp?
you can't blame the dabblers because master commando is a waste of skill points, I'd love to go back to master, but I just can't justify wasting my skill points on HAR, HSW, and grenades (i don't pvp often so the ranged defences aren't useful to me).
I think changes need to be made to the dot, IMO it should take into account the heat resist of the target.
we need to get FIXED. not nerfed.
And im sure that we will get nerfed because unlike CH's, ALL of our weapons are high damage output weapons. And ALL of the commando weapons are dramatically outdamaged by the flamethrower and its dot (even if they fixed acid rifle mods and made grenades super accurate). particularly because of the dot. case in point, people now whine a boatload because of the flamer, so increasing the damage on the other weapons is not an option, nor is increasing their speed, for that increases damage over time.
so how will soe 'fix' the other commando weapon trees so they become as good a weapon as the flamer? only way: reduce the damage in the flamer to be close to the others or increase its speed delay even more or make dot subject to resists (which I doubt will happen since then all bleeds would be subject to it and BH's fire dot will become totally useless).
the only other way is to move the dot to master level. just like BH's getting eyeshot moved to master box.
I think the extra stuff that happend to CH wasnt directly intended at the CHs, but at any rate it did efect them. The once uber pets you talking about now being weak fits into what they were saying aout the new combat system where for a while some things willseem too easy and others too hard to kill. The BEs making the pets that are good I think is a shallow attempt at making BE more useful than having to just make components for clothes.
I dont feel for the complaint of people paying for the cheap vehicles over the mounts cause frankly a lot of you were charging way too much for the mounts. I still use my mount from time to time when I'm going to harsh combat areas cause when my vehicle blows up, I gotta buy a new one, where I can just store my mount and it wil recover.
CHs still need to train the pets if its BE produced or else its worthless. Charge a little money for that but really, I dint think you guys wanted it as a money making profession originally. Greed just seemed to suck you in when mounts were all thats out there.
Gotta say, this, forgive me, but Tac and Techno:
With friends like you, Commandos don't need any enemies.
But hey, think what you want. Just wait till the combat review and we'll see if the master or grenadeer title have any worth left.
Tacwraith and Technohic... did either one of you read my ideas that I posted earlier for a re-orginization of the entire commando line basing each tree on either certifications, specials, accuracy/speed bonuses, and def mods? I tend to favor this over moving specials up to the Master Commando box. That is just a fix for the flamethrower, and really if you are saying that people with the grenadeer line are too powerful then the same could be said of people with the HAR line. If we start moving all the specials and accuracies to master commando... then that prevents any dabbling whatsoever. And the ability to dabble in mutliple professions is one of the reasons why this game is so great.
-Hypnodx
hypno, moving the DOT only to master does not punish those going up the commando trees to master and it does not punish dabblers, as both still have the massive frontload damage (9k average!) with the flamespecials, and they can both still hit for 1300 damage normal shots out to 64m or 5k damage using overcharge shot.
the HAR is broken, and even if its fixed in accuracy and speed mods it would be like what I want the flamer to be in non-master level. High damage but no dot.
breaking the mods across trees punishes the novice commando going for master, for remember we are not a single-weapon class that can have accuracy, speed and damage specials spread through 4 different trees. it would make no sense to have the flamer speed in field tactics, the damage specials in the flamer line, and the accuracy in heavy weapons support, because the novice trying to use it would have to have 3 trees in X box level (say, box1) before the flamer becomes usable. That does not happen in other proffessions that already have specials and mods from the pre-reqs.