Commando Archive
Thread: NERF for us all on TC2
Daker-Naritus wrote:
2 Responses Garvin:
(1) You are saying that it is only a 5 second delay between when you equip a piece of armor and when that takes effect?
So if I macro equip allmy armor at once it only takes 5 seconds to equip?
If that is the case, that is not how everyone else's tests have been reported. People have been saying it takes, at a minimum 33 seconds to equip a full set of armor.
If things are as your tests say, then no, it is not that big of a deal. My question becomes, why are your tests different from the others....
(2) It's NOT a bad idea...you just didn't think about it hard enough...
IMHO, "Jedi" should NOT be able to wear armor (in it'scurrent form in-game)in any way, shape or form. By "Jedi" I mean anything Padawan or above. The Jedi are a cult (to put it bluntly)...they have a set way of doing things and acting.They all wear the same outfit, and in-game Jedi should be no different. All the "force sensitive" players that do not take up padawan should be able to continue wearing armor. For them, I doubt their weakforce moves are that unbalancing enough to justify the nerf. A FS person/commando would be able to continue wearing armor.
When that player reaches padawan, they would then get a jedi robe and be prohibited from wearing conventional armor. How is that robe different from conventional armor? It isn't...it is armor (only probably weaker than composite to balance all the defensive and toughness attributes jedi get). Nothing is being taken away from that jedi/commando, he just has to wear a jedi robe as armor instead of composite... He joined the jedi order, he has to wear the (properly balanced) jedi robe.
In that instance, there is no reason for an armordelay at all...the jedi has nothing to switch to because the robe is his armor. Additionally it should be easy to program....only certain classes can wear mandolarian, why would it be hard to make ti so that every class except jedi can wear conventional armor.
Why is that a bad idea?
1) Like I stated...I'm not the autority on this...I've only tried it a couple of times and without a stop watch, but All I remember is clicking on each piece of armor, noticing a delay, then prety much boom..boom...boom...etc the armor all went on piece by piece without any further delay...I'll need to run more tests paying closer attention...
2) Don't get me wrong...I agree that a Padawan shouldn't be wearing armor...in fact, I often agree with a lot of things you bring up...but part of my job is not basing things on my personal opinion...Just like it's our opinion that A Padawan/Commando shouldn't wear armor, that doesn't mean everyone else agrees...what if the majority feels that a Padawan/Commandoshould be allowed to wear Composite armor, and are willing to live with the armor delay to keep that right...How should I proceed? Should I still fight against it because to us, it seems like a bad thing...because it inconveyences us?
As of last I checked, Jedi Robes aren't available yet...but they should be soon (hoping)...When they are, we'll be able to make a case for or against...Personally I think there are plenty of reasons to not have the armor and only one solid one to have it...But it comes down to the route the devs decide to go...
If they decide to make it so that Padawans can't wear armor, how will you respond if the majority is against that? Remember, we won't be dealing with just Jedi's or just Commandos...but we'll be dealing with Jedi Commandos (or those heading in that direction)...
Personally I only plan on getting my Commando Force Sensetive...While the effects of the Jedi powers and abilities look cool, they aren't much more powerful (currently) then an elite combat profession...and they are beatable...
I will ask...this might explain why my results are different from what other's are seeing...When I first tried it, it was back when it was first introduced...since then I haven't had a reason to take off my armor (I'm currently in the process of building a new set...my final, post grind, set)...
Hellshot wrote:
I just wanted to point out that the armor equiping delay, in its current iteration, is a delay of 5s per piece of armor. I have all my armor in my 3rd hot bar and a simple macro set up so that I quickly equip it all without fumbling in my inventory. This is effectively clicking on all the armor at the same time. Right now, I will equip each piece of armor one at a time, with a 5s delay for each piece (i.e. hit macro key, jacket unequips, wait 5s, right bracer equips, wait 5s more, left bracer equips, wait 5s more, etc). When the delay was first introduced it was a flat 5s. I don't know if this is a bug or intended, maybe you can ask Garvin?
Something else interesting to check on Garvin:
From the Dev Q&A:
Question: Will Jedi cloaks be able to compare to current player armor?
Kirk said that Jedi cloaks will roughly compare to "regular armor". The attendee put Kirk on the spot and asked "What is 'regular armor'? Kirk was very noncommittal about his answer other than to say that it should be equivalent to what other players would have and that the combat revamp would also make sure that a good balance is achieved.
So...if jedi are getting cloaks as armor (like the developers say they are) why the HELL are players getting a delay nerf for armor under the guise of "required to balance force powers?"
Hey Daker-Naritus. Dosent what Garvin says here sound alot like what i was trying to tell you back in the BH forum. Glad to see that more than one person was right, to bad it wasnt you.
garvin wrote:
Ok...this is going to be a mess...but I'll try...
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Garvin, come on buddy...think here. What happens when you heal Health and Action? You use up mind. When wearing armor how much mind? 3 times that without armor. And how fast do you regenerate that mind while wearing armor? You don't...armor kills your regeneration. And do you need that mind for battle? Hell yes...most mobs hit all 3 pools.
If you use up all your mind to heal your health and action to full, you are going to die just as fast, if not faster, than you would have without the heals.
If you heal health and action, you are merely moving HAM points around and moving mind points to health and action...you are STILL going to have to take your armor off to regenerate mind. Otherwise you are going to die in your next battle, because most mobs hit all 3 pools.
Also, if you are using TKA as a regeneration tool, please remember that there are 32 classes that cannot meditate.
Daker...I'm afraid it's you who needs to think...or at least get to know better your resources out there...Yes...when you heal you use up the Mind Bar...but if you've used decent Brandy, your Mind will heal at mach speed comparatively...that's why I suggested it...If you've got good brandy you don't even need to remove your helmet to fast heal your mind...many chef's out ther can made brandy with less then 50 filling, so you can take 2 hits and the average length is lasts is around 40 minutes or more...right there that takes care of 99% of your issue...
I don't understand.... Armor equips the second you click equip. What you are saying is that armor acts like it is entering the combat queue and equips well after you click on it right?That is STILL 40 seconds until you are wearing all of your armor and can continue fighting, isn't it?
How long does it take you to click on 9 items in your inventory? Forget about any delays and such...how long would it take you, speed wise, to click on total items? Do you think you could do it in less then 5 seconds? Do you think there are others out there who are faster or slower? It's not a queue...that's what I'm trying ot explain...there is NO queue...it's 5 seconds from when you clicked on it...so even if it took you 1 second per click...in 5 seconds you've have your first peice on...then EVERY second after that a new piece would go on...NOT 5 Seconds later...1 Second because it 5 seconds from the time you clicked the piece...don't think so linear...
I could adapt. I could also stick needles into my eyes and eat live Madagascar cockroaches....IF, and ONLY if, there was a good reason for it. Here we have no good reason. Again, why change and inconvience 33 classes to balance one, when you could just change that one and have everyone be happy?
I do use brandy... It doesn't speed up the mind regeneration process enough that I don't need to take my armor off. Remember, needless downtime is bad. According to your logic, devs are now giving me the choice of 2 things...(1) spend40 seconds waiiting for armor to equip, or (2) leave my armor on and spend twice as long regenerating mind with brandy, and 10 times as long without brandy. Both comprise additional downtime that is NEEDLESS for 33 out of the 34 classes.
You are getting the wrong brandy and I'm sorry to say, it's poor strategy not to use it...for most folks, good brandy is their best friend...During battles and post battle, my mind, fully armored, heals VERY quickly...Even without this change, you should be using brandy...Its one of the best enhancement items in game...During just about any fight I never have to even think about my mind bar when I'm buffed with 2 shots of brandy...Every stim pack I use, my mind immediately heals up...and I wear armor that I have to use spice to get on (on TC)...so my secondary stats are all at 1...You really need to rethink your reasons for not using Brandy...
Easy solution... TAKE JEDI ARMOR AWAY. Jedi NEVER wore armor in the movies, they had robes. Give jedi robes resistances like armor and put the delay on that...problem solved with no effect on me.
VERY VERY VERY Bad Idea...You've totally ignored the bigger picture...You get Jedi Specials without being a full Jedi in the upcoming revamp...so would you take the Armor away from a Commando who can use 1 Lightsaber special that requires no armor? That's the cost of using that special, that they have to be unarmed, but because they've achieved that level, even though they are still a Commando, would you strip them permanently of the ability to wear Armor? You're confusing having Jedi powers with being a Jedi...The Armor issue is going to help keep folks using Jedi Powers in check...if they want to use the abilities over their regular abilities (like Commando specials), then they can't wear their armor...but just because they have that ability doesn't mean they want to use it all the time, hence they shouldn't be penalized by the "No Armor" rule...Eventually, if they progress, they will have to give up all their previous skills and go full Jedi...and at this point it would be suicide for them to wear any Armor (because they'll have no non-jedi specials)...
Garvin, please re-read my posts in this thread...I have already proposed a perfectly viable solution.Either take Jedi armor away (they are alreadygetting uberdefenses in the revamp), or make jedi robes work like armor. Devs just gave wookiees armor, there is no reason they couldn't create an extra type of armor robe for Jedi.
I read you other posts...but as you can see from my reply just above this, it's a VERY BAD idea...it's not taking in the full scope of the revamp...
Besides that, letting the thing get to live is too late. Look at Death Decay...after it came out players said they hated death decay and wanted a different death penalty. It took 3 months of primal screams to get devs tolessen death decay, and we still haven't gotten them to git rid of it / create a different death penalty.
But they did get them to get rid of PvP Death Penalty...There was pissing and moaning prior to it going it...the devs were set on it and they weren't going to change their minds...
Look at the DE changes. DEs started complaining the second TH's combat plan came out. What happened...devs stopped wasting their time on that plan and used player feedback to create and AWESOME plan with utility droids that has substantially improved DE.
And there are many DE's who are upset that they NEVER got to test any of it out...Same with the Crafting change...many wish they had more then 1 day to try it...My Alt is a DE and I believe in strongly giving everything a chance with proper testing...and so far...What you are proposing is like "not fixing the HAR" with the possibility that one day the Devs will take it away...We don't know what the Devs will or won't do...we can't base our path on what might be...we have to focus on what is best for us now and gear those hopes into shaping the future...
If we let this get to live, the devs will not change it because they will have moved onto other revamps. They are not going to backtrack and kill things they spent time implementing to live when they are working on later revamps. In the law, it's called estoppel...if you sit there, knowing something is going to happen to wrong you, and you do nothing about it, you lose your right to complain.
How hard of a change do you think this is? It's basically going into the system and adding/removing delay time...most programmers would agree that this is an easy change...The devs may move on (I hope they do personally) but if enough people give enough valid reasons to make the change, the devs will make the change...But if people just sit back and offer up "because it is an inconveyence" as the best reason against it, I doubt the Devs would even pay attention...especially since they can offer up probably more reasons to keep it....
As for me i would just suggest a timer like what we have with pets. It would be that no one can remove or change armor in combat, and when the battles ends we would have a 10-15 second timer in place after the battle. But if we where not in battle and just wanted to we could just remove or change the armor we have on with no penelties. So since the exploit is when we are fighting, lets keep the delay for when we are in battle. This will teach Jedi to keep there robes on for the fear they might get wasted in other armor, and it will teach the rest of us to have our armor on befor heading out into danger.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 06-07-2004 08:19 PM
Naquiel wrote:
Hey Daker-Naritus. Dosent what Garvin says here sound alot like what i was trying to tell you back in the BH forum. Glad to see that more than one person was right, to bad it wasnt you.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 06-07-2004 08:14 PM
Daker is entitled to his opinion just like you are and I am...Just because I disagree or try and point out a different side of an discussion doesn't mean I am any more right them him...I just try and bring what I know and offer different sides of the coin for us to look at...
Daker and I may disagree occasionally, but I still appreciate him bringing his view points to share...
Garvin, the main reason this change is bad (at least as far as armor is concerned) is that it substantially increases downtime without increasing interactivity or balance.
Using an example I used earlier: I run without buffs a lot, and I believe that game balance without buffs is about where devs intended the game to be.
Generally, I can run 3-4 medium difficulty missions an hour, and my HAM pools are drained enough after each battle (mission) that I have to sit around for a couple of minutes and heal HAM/regenerate mind. When wearing composite armor, you don't regenerate at all (well, barely) and mind costs of healing are 3 times what they should be. Consequently, you HAVE to remove your armor to regenerate and heal at any reasonable rate.
I take it you don't have Novice Medic or the Meditate tree of TKA? I've never have HAD to remove my armor to heal...sure it might be faster with my armor off, but not that much quicker...I heal fast with just Novice Medic at a very reasonable rate even with my armor fully equipped...
The numbers I have been hearing from TC2 (which are subject to correction by those in the know), is that there is a 5 second delay on equipping each piece of armor. 9 pieces of armor times 5 seconds per piece = 45 seconds minus 5 seconds because there is no delay on the first piece. That means when I get ready to heal up, I am going to have to sit there and mindlessly click on my armor every 5 seconds for at least 40 seconds when unequipping my armor. Then when I am done healing, I will have to spend ANOTHER 40 seconds re-equipping my armor.
So far we have me spending 1 minute 20 seconds doing NOTHING BUT CLICKING ON ARMOR every time I want to heal up. Now, consider that I run about 4 missions an hour...I would spend at least 5 minutes 20 seconds every hour screwing with my armor. That is NINE percent of my play time each hour doing nothing but screwing with armor.
I know I say this often, but couldn't you adapt? What about not taking all of your armor off? I run tons of missions an hour and usually only unequip my helmet...I also use brandy to improve me healing time with the armor on...With or without the delay, USE BRANDY...it speeds up the whole process...
Now consider the game improvement benefit. The only class (out of 34) that is balanced by this change is Jedi. 33 classes are being forced to spend approximately 10% of their play time each night waiting on armor to equip and unequip, with no balancing features to those classes.
What more reason do you need for the devs to know this is a bad idea?
Considering that OVER 95% of players are not jedi and aren't unbalanced by instant armor changes, how is the game bettered by thoise 95% of players spending 10% of their time sitting there taking armor on and off?
First off...of all our COMMANDO weapons, the FT is the one used most often...Most Commandos rarely switch to other COMMANDO weapons during a fight...and even when they do, look at the speed of our weapons...they take longer then the "delay restriction" which means it takes more then 5 seconds to fire a Flame special...or an HAR special...or a Rocket...or throw a Grenades...etc...so for us to switch to another weapon within our fold is still as immediate as it ever was....
Garvin this is right, but I wanted to add something... Part of the reason you have a job and all of us post in these commando boards is to fix the fact that commandos only use flame-throwers, and that the delay on all of our weapons suck. We have been asking for our weapons to be fixed. Additionally, if we ever get the unarmed/LP specials that we are asking for, I would hope that they do not have long delays like the rest of our weapons.
Point being, that I think it is wrong to say "this doesn't effect Commandos right now, so we shouldn't care." Chances are, this weapon switching change will effect us after the combat balance, and we will wish we had done something about it when it was on TC....
Just my 2cr, for what it is worth...
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Garvin this is right, but I wanted to add something... Part of the reason you have a job and all of us post in these commando boards is to fix the fact that commandos only use flame-throwers, and that the delay on all of our weapons suck. We have been asking for our weapons to be fixed. Additionally, if we ever get the unarmed/LP specials that we are asking for, I would hope that they do not have long delays like the rest of our weapons.
Point being, that I think it is wrong to say "this doesn't effect Commandos right now, so we shouldn't care." Chances are, this weapon switching change will effect us after the combat balance, and we will wish we had done something about it when it was on TC....
Just my 2cr, for what it is worth...
This is a very good point and something I addressed a bitin another post...Our goals include new weapons and new specials...but also take into account, with those new items will come retrictions and penalties based on their level...If we get new high damage specials (unarmed for example) they we'll probably have a time delay on them anyway...if we get an assult rifle, we'll probably have enough (hopefully) strategic reason to sure the weapon more then 5 seconds...Even if our LP got specials, I'd be pretty upset if the devs gave us something that we'd only use for a quick shot, not something that would be useful to use more then 5 seconds...
It's my hope that how ever we get improved in the future that we are improved in a way that a 5 second speed equip penaltymeans NOTHING to us...That we are useful no matter the weapon we hold...that we have valid strategic value with all our weapons/specials...
Let me turn this back on you Daker (just for fun 
)...which would you prefer the Devs to give us...a new special/weapon that we'd only want to use EVER for a quick shot...or a new special/weapon that we could rely on for more then 5 seconds? To base our future improvement on the idea that this delay will hurt us is, at least to me, devaluing what we expect from our future improvement goals...
garvin wrote:
Oops hit send too soon....
Garvin, the main reason this change is bad (at least as far as armor is concerned) is that it substantially increases downtime without increasing interactivity or balance.
Using an example I used earlier: I run without buffs a lot, and I believe that game balance without buffs is about where devs intended the game to be.
Generally, I can run 3-4 medium difficulty missions an hour, and my HAM pools are drained enough after each battle (mission) that I have to sit around for a couple of minutes and heal HAM/regenerate mind. When wearing composite armor, you don't regenerate at all (well, barely) and mind costs of healing are 3 times what they should be. Consequently, you HAVE to remove your armor to regenerate and heal at any reasonable rate.
I take it you don't have Novice Medic or the Meditate tree of TKA? I've never have HAD to remove my armor to heal...sure it might be faster with my armor off, but not that much quicker...I heal fast with just Novice Medic at a very reasonable rate even with my armor fully equipped...
Garvin, come on buddy...think here. What happens when you heal Health and Action? You use up mind. When wearing armor how much mind? 3 times that without armor. And how fast do you regenerate that mind while wearing armor? You don't...armor kills your regeneration. And do you need that mind for battle? Hell yes...most mobs hit all 3 pools.
If you use up all your mind to heal your health and action to full, you are going to die just as fast, if not faster, than you would have without the heals.
If you heal health and action, you are merely moving HAM points around and moving mind points to health and action...you are STILL going to have to take your armor off to regenerate mind. Otherwise you are going to die in your next battle, because most mobs hit all 3 pools.
Also, if you are using TKA as a regeneration tool, please remember that there are 32 classes that cannot meditate.
The numbers I have been hearing from TC2 (which are subject to correction by those in the know), is that there is a 5 second delay on equipping each piece of armor. 9 pieces of armor times 5 seconds per piece = 45 seconds minus 5 seconds because there is no delay on the first piece. That means when I get ready to heal up, I am going to have to sit there and mindlessly click on my armor every 5 seconds for at least 40 seconds when unequipping my armor. Then when I am done healing, I will have to spend ANOTHER 40 seconds re-equipping my armor.
That's incorrect...at least from my tests...it's true about 5 seconds per piece, but that's 5 seconds from when you click it...you don't have to click one piece, wait for it to equip, then click the next...I could speed click all my armor and within 10 to 15 seconds I'll have it all equiped...it's not one by one, it's 5 seconds or so from when you click it (if you could click them all at the same time it would take less then 10 seconds to equip them all)...I could be wrong so I'll run more tests, but so far I've never had to wait more then 20 second (I'm a slow clicker) to get all my armor back on....
I don't understand.... Armor equips the second you click equip. What you are saying is that armor acts like it is entering the combat queue and equips well after you click on it right?That is STILL 40 seconds until you are wearing all of your armor and can continue fighting, isn't it?
That is what I am complaining about...why should I have to wait for 40 seconds to get my armor on before I am ready to fight? Why is that justified? So that 1 out of 34 classes can be balanced? That is idiotic!!!
Why change and inconvience 33 classes to balance one, when you could just change that one and have everyone be happy?
So far we have me spending 1 minute 20 seconds doing NOTHING BUT CLICKING ON ARMOR every time I want to heal up. Now, consider that I run about 4 missions an hour...I would spend at least 5 minutes 20 seconds every hour screwing with my armor. That is NINE percent of my play time each hour doing nothing but screwing with armor.
I know I say this often, but couldn't you adapt? What about not taking all of your armor off? I run tons of missions an hour and usually only unequip my helmet...I also use brandy to improve me healing time with the armor on...With or without the delay, USE BRANDY...it speeds up the whole process...
I could adapt. I could also stick needles into my eyes and eat live Madagascar cockroaches....IF, and ONLY if, there was a good reason for it. Here we have no good reason. Again, why change and inconvience 33 classes to balance one, when you could just change that one and have everyone be happy?
I do use brandy... It doesn't speed up the mind regeneration process enough that I don't need to take my armor off. Remember, needless downtime is bad. According to your logic, devs are now giving me the choice of 2 things...(1) spend40 seconds waiiting for armor to equip, or (2) leave my armor on and spend twice as long regenerating mind with brandy, and 10 times as long without brandy. Both comprise additional downtime that is NEEDLESS for 33 out of the 34 classes.
Now consider the game improvement benefit. The only class (out of 34) that is balanced by this change is Jedi. 33 classes are being forced to spend approximately 10% of their play time each night waiting on armor to equip and unequip, with no balancing features to those classes.
What more reason do you need for the devs to know this is a bad idea?
Considering that OVER 95% of players are not jedi and aren't unbalanced by instant armor changes, how is the game bettered by thoise 95% of players spending 10% of their time sitting there taking armor on and off?
So say the devs decided to balance the game on that point...that only 5% of players play Jedi...They leave the armor the way it is and don't add the delay...What do they do when people start complaining about the Jedi Armor Exploit? What if 95% of non-jedi players want the devs to prevent Jedi's from exploiting the fact they can speed macro armor...95% of non-jedi will complain about the problem...but that same 95% of non-jedi will complain when the Devs test out a possible solution that may impact them as well...
Easy solution... TAKE JEDI ARMOR AWAY. Jedi NEVER wore armor in the movies, they had robes. Give jedi robes resistances like armor and put the delay on that...problem solved with no effect on me.
I play on TC and TC2 a lot...and I've equiped and un-equiped my armor a lot lately (working on a new set actually)...after a few times I don't even notice the delay and it hasn't impacted my game play at all...If it goes live and enough people hate it, the Devs will remove it or come up with something better...our best hope to get them to change their mind is not to complain about it, but to offer up better ideas/routes they can go with...so far I've seen a few, but most posts throughout various forums state 2 things...1) There is a problem & 2) We don't like the solution...There needs to be a number 3 in which alternate solutions are presented to "make the devs change their minds"...to make the devs say "Hey...that is a better idea...gee, I wish we thought of that"...
Garvin, please re-read my posts in this thread...I have already proposed a perfectly viable solution.Either take Jedi armor away (they are alreadygetting uberdefenses in the revamp), or make jedi robes work like armor. Devs just gave wookiees armor, there is no reason they couldn't create an extra type of armor robe for Jedi.
Besides that, letting the thing get to live is too late. Look at Death Decay...after it came out players said they hated death decay and wanted a different death penalty. It took 3 months of primal screams to get devs tolessen death decay, and we still haven't gotten them to git rid of it / create a different death penalty.
Look at the DE changes. DEs started complaining the second TH's combat plan came out. What happened...devs stopped wasting their time on that plan and used player feedback to create and AWESOME plan with utility droids that has substantially improved DE.
If we let this get to live, the devs will not change it because they will have moved onto other revamps. They are not going to backtrack and kill things they spent time implementing to live when they are working on later revamps. In the law, it's called estoppel...if you sit there, knowing something is going to happen to wrong you, and you do nothing about it, you lose your right to complain.