Commando Archive
Thread: NERF for us all on TC2
RazerWolf wrote:
Can't they make it so you can't equip both Armour and a Lightsaber? Just have an error coming up saying something like "You are too encumbered by armour to use this weapon." if you try and equip a saber while armoured. You can still use non-saber force powers in armour then as well.
Currently on TC2 you can use a Lightsaber while wearing Armor...you just can't use any lightsaber specials...Same is true with non-lightsaber force specials...you can't do any of the Jedi Specials while wearing armor...
If they based it on whether a player had their Lightsaber equiped, that wouldn't stop an armored Jedi from using a non-lightsber special like Force Choke...
I may be in the Minority here, but I have never changed my armor during battle...in fact, I rarely take my armor off, except maybe my helmet when I'm healing (and those times are outside battle)...so I'm not totally clear on the issue with the Armor Equip delay.
Do people use to entice someone into a duel thinking they have no armor, then "surprise", they have armor quickly on viaan equip macro?
Do people not examine their target prior to a fight to judge which set of armor is best before starting a fight, then during battle find they need to switch to the other armor that has the proper resists?
Do people switch armor during a fight that often that a delay would severely hurt their game play?
The key is what you do with your armor BEFORE and what you do DURING a fight....
To me, if you are about to go into a fight, I don't see whya person can't take 10 to 30 seconds longer to equip their armor (if they weren't already wearing it)..Don't start a duel or fight while not wearing your armor...and if you are Overt running around without your armor on, what's the old saying "Don't get caught with your pants down"...
Seriously...I honestly need input on good reasons that the the Armor Delay is going to hurt the average player...something to help base my own personal opinion on (since I have never had an issue with this) and something we can use tobase a community stance on, whether we end up supporting or opposing it as a whole.
RazerWolf wrote:
Let's say I log in overt from not dying while PVPing the previous night. I have to remove some of the armour I have on to put on my BE clothes and buff myself. I can then put armour back on. I don't want an extra 45 seconds vulnerable where an overt can come kill me and there's nothing I can do about it.
A couple of issues come to mind here...
1) This is why I think the armor delay would work best only if someone is engaged in battle...if you take off your armor to heal/buff then you should be able to put your armor back on just fine (if they set it this way) as long as you aren't caught "with your pants down" by an overt player of another type...and if you are caught are you maybe guilty of "picking and unsafe place to remove your armor"?
2) Even if someone does catch you with your armor off while you are overt and kills you, you'll clone with no decay...so there is no loss except you have to heal more and the time...Death should help that overt status and now you can heal/buff and put your armor back on...
Besides the annoyance of time and healing, what else is there?
Galjoss wrote:
I think this isa nerf to all combat proffessions except TK, all combat proffessions switch weapons quickly to use the best weapon for the job, if you wait have wait 5 seconds to get a different weapon then you wont bother, you will just keep hitting your strongest hit, this nerf wont balance things or stop one proffession over another, all it will achieve is removing a strategical element from the game, I dont think it will nerf on proffession more than another (with the exception of CM and TK who dont need to switch weapons unless they have a second prof). It will just make fights, both PvP and PvE a little more dull.
But this goes back to the fact that, for the most part, a profession like Commando uses their set of weapons longer then 5 seconds before needing to switch (our specials and speed make that so...it's not a choice thing)...and if you equip a weapon, use it for 5 seconds, you can equip another weapon immediately with no delay...this change ONLY effects those professions who switch 2 weapons within 5 seconds...as in FT to VK to LP all within5 seconds...the FT to VK would be immediate, but the VK to LP would be delayed...no if it went FT to VK (use for 5 seconds) to LP, all the changes would be immediate.
This is why I personally don't see this hurting Commandos specifically (not Commandos + Other Professions...but specifically Commandos)...It will hurt a Commando/TKM who uses a macro to quick equip their VKs for a fast KD followed by re-equiping their FT for a flame special (all within 5 seconds)...this type of macro won't work anymore (it will take longer to process)...That will hurt, but the way around it is to add an /unarmedhit3 to the mix of your macro...that will cause the VKs to be equiped for more then 5 seconds and they you can equip the FT with no delay...problem solved with a bit of added strategy...
So in reality, this is no where near a NERF to all Combat Professions...It's a NERF specifically targetted at the speed weapon macro user...non-macro equip/unequip special use tends to take longer then 5 seconds (at least for me...lol)...
Whether we as a Community support or attack this NERF is up to whether it helps or hurts us...Do people speed weapon macro against us more then we speed macro against them? Since we are a slow profession anyway (full of delays) to the point that this delay is rarely noticable, I don't see it hurting us...
I use this combo almost every day....
kd2...flamesingle2.
If I get a delay between switch between vk's and a flamer...it is useless.
The next one is..... Once I unequip my flamer do I still take every hit with the 2X modifer and loose my unarmed bonus to damaged delt to me for the next 6-8 seconds?
This is the difference between soaking up one hit as commando...vs. soaking up 3-6 hits as commando.
Tactically this is a big hit for commandos.
-eakop-
eakop wrote:
This is a nerf for MC and TKM's.
I use this combo almost every day....
kd2...flamesingle2.
If I get a delay between switch between vk's and a flamer...it is useless.
The next one is..... Once I unequip my flamer do I still take every hit with the 2X modifer and loose my unarmed bonus to damaged delt to me for the next 6-8 seconds?
This is the difference between soaking up one hit as commando...vs. soaking up 3-6 hits as commando.
Tactically this is a big hit for commandos.
-eakop-
Let me ask this...when you hit a KD...do you get a Dizzy/KD? For me, this usually keeps the person down longer then 5 seconds...plenty of time to re-equip my FT & in the mean time (while they are down) hit a couple of more unarmed hits...I don't think this tactic will be anywhere close to useless...we will just need to adapt...fill up the 5 seconds with something...it's still a powerful combo...heck...hit 2 KD/Dizzy's instead of 1 to eat up that 5 seconds...
If you use non-flame specials (which have delays built in of course), you should have NO DELAY in equiping your VKs...UNLESS...you had just equiped the FT 3 seconds before you tried to equip your VKs...the key is adapting if needed...
I have used KD/Dizzy + Flame just fine on TC2 with the weapon equip delay in there...it still worked great...no where close to being useless...infact, it seemed to work better if I made a macro that hit 2xKD/Dizzy then switched to my FT...I even made one that threw in an /unarmedhit3...In combat I ended up with a KD'd opponent with a Flame Dot...just like I would on live...except the extra hits hurt them more then my old faster macro would have...I adapted...
Garvin, the main reason this change is bad (at least as far as armor is concerned) is that it substantially increases downtime without increasing interactivity or balance.
Using an example I used earlier: I run without buffs a lot, and I believe that game balance without buffs is about where devs intended the game to be.
Generally, I can run 3-4 medium difficulty missions an hour, and my HAM pools are drained enough after each battle (mission) that I have to sit around for a couple of minutes and heal HAM/regenerate mind. When wearing composite armor, you don't regenerate at all (well, barely) and mind costs of healing are 3 times what they should be. Consequently, you HAVE to remove your armor to regenerate and heal at any reasonable rate.
The numbers I have been hearing from TC2 (which are subject to correction by those in the know), is that there is a 5 second delay on equipping each piece of armor. 9 pieces of armor times 5 seconds per piece = 45 seconds minus 5 seconds because there is no delay on the first piece. That means when I get ready to heal up, I am going to have to sit there and mindlessly click on my armor every 5 seconds for at least 40 seconds when unequipping my armor. Then when I am done healing, I will have to spend ANOTHER 40 seconds re-equipping my armor.
So far we have me spending 1 minute 20 seconds doing NOTHING BUT CLICKING ON ARMOR every time I want to heal up. Now, consider that I run about 4 missions an hour...I would spend at least 5 minutes 20 seconds every hour screwing with my armor. That is NINE percent of my play time each hour doing nothing but screwing with armor.
Now consider the game improvement benefit. The only class (out of 34) that is balanced by this change is Jedi. 33 classes are being forced to spend approximately 10% of their play time each night waiting on armor to equip and unequip, with no balancing features to those classes.
What more reason do you need for the devs to know this is a bad idea?
Considering that OVER 95% of players are not jedi and aren't unbalanced by instant armor changes, how is the game bettered by thoise 95% of players spending 10% of their time sitting there taking armor on and off?
Edit: I just realized that I am unsure whether there is a delay for both equipping and unequipping armor. I think people have been talking about a delay only for equipping armor. HOWEVER, it doesn't change the outcome...I would still spend 5% of my time screwing with armor, and that is STILL way too much.
I play this game for enjoyment. If I have to sit there clicking for 30 seconds, there better be a DAMN good reason for it. Otherwise you are making the game un-fun for me for no reason (which pisses me off and increases my willingness to move to another game).
Message Edited by Daker-Naritus on 06-07-2004 02:05 PM
On the Armor Delay: Not a game killer for me, just an annoyance. When im Overt my armor is on, simple as that. The fact that its an annoyance is the problem though. It seems to be rational to assume that this code is needed to keep Jedi from switching armor off and doing specials before popping it back on, thats not needed though.
The new Jedi defenses are pretty decent and with robes they'll be that much better. Jedi dont want to wear armor right now anyway, but they have to. Once the revamp hits they wont have to and they wont bother. Not sure how the lower level jedi will be effected but I know my Knight on TC2 can take 5 Rancors (assorted, 2 bulls and others) and not even be concerned without buffs or armor. This is on TC2 though and that may change.
If im just PVE'ing, i dont like to stand around in comp at the starport, i like to press one button and unequip all of it. I dont enjoy looking like a Composite Clone Trooper at all times.
On the Weapon Delay: All Commandos are Master Marksmen. There is a wide assortment in that tree of weapon types. With each tree (Rifle, Pistol, Carbine) there is an assortment of damage types. There are valuable bleeds in each of those trees that help out quite a bit when fighting large creatures. I do switch weapons with considerable speed and use specials without the need to macro. I would imagine that speed macro users are in the minority as far as population goes, many people in the game dont even use macroes at all.
Many commandos can choose to live and die by the flamethrower alone and thats there choice, I however prefer to utilize those skill points.
Why I started this thread: The purpose of this thread was not to make every Commando freak out. I made it clear that this was indeed on Test Center and Test Center 2. I did not know however if it was a bug or a secret test by the devs to judge the player base's reactions. Most people dont play on Test Center so they would never have known about this, until it was possibly too late.
Whether this goes live or not is irrelevant to my post. Whether Garvin (who does a good job by the way) agrees that this is a problem for commandos or not is not my concern. This is a game altering mechanic on Test Center that could possibly go live and the player base (all of it, not just those on test center) deserve to hear about it.
If this had been quiet and indeed brought to live servers on down the road the kicking and screaming would have been 100 times what you're seeing now.
I'm not a troll or a trouble causer, im a Commando (among other things) and as a Commando im not liking this delay. It will not cause me to cancel my account if its brought to live. I wont scream bloody murder and call the Devs morons. I'll adapt to it and still bring the @ss Kicking to a neighborhood near my enemies. I would however, prefer to not have to adapt to this particular change as its only annoying and not in any way improving my game playing experience.
I agree with Galjoss and I have said similar things in this thread and others. It will take away yet another layer of strategy in an already limited combat system and thats my opinion even as a Commando.
Nobody is calling you a troll or stating your opinion is invalid...in fact I, as well as I'm sure the rest of the community thanks you for bringing it up for discussion...it's just my job to make sure every angle is considered...
as for:
On the Weapon Delay: All Commandos are Master Marksmen. There is a wide assortment in that tree of weapon types. With each tree (Rifle, Pistol, Carbine) there is an assortment of damage types. There are valuable bleeds in each of those trees that help out quite a bit when fighting large creatures. I do switch weapons with considerable speed and use specials without the need to macro. I would imagine that speed macro users are in the minority as far as population goes, many people in the game dont even use macroes at all.
Many commandos can choose to live and die by the flamethrower alone and thats there choice, I however prefer to utilize those skill points.
garvin wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Garvin this is right, but I wanted to add something... Part of the reason you have a job and all of us post in these commando boards is to fix the fact that commandos only use flame-throwers, and that the delay on all of our weapons suck. We have been asking for our weapons to be fixed. Additionally, if we ever get the unarmed/LP specials that we are asking for, I would hope that they do not have long delays like the rest of our weapons.
Point being, that I think it is wrong to say "this doesn't effect Commandos right now, so we shouldn't care." Chances are, this weapon switching change will effect us after the combat balance, and we will wish we had done something about it when it was on TC....
Just my 2cr, for what it is worth...
This is a very good point and something I addressed a bitin another post...Our goals include new weapons and new specials...but also take into account, with those new items will come retrictions and penalties based on their level...If we get new high damage specials (unarmed for example) they we'll probably have a time delay on them anyway...if we get an assult rifle, we'll probably have enough (hopefully) strategic reason to sure the weapon more then 5 seconds...Even if our LP got specials, I'd be pretty upset if the devs gave us something that we'd only use for a quick shot, not something that would be useful to use more then 5 seconds...
It's my hope that how ever we get improved in the future that we are improved in a way that a 5 second speed equip penaltymeans NOTHING to us...That we are useful no matter the weapon we hold...that we have valid strategic value with all our weapons/specials...
Let me turn this back on you Daker (just for fun
)...which would you prefer the Devs to give us...a new special/weapon that we'd only want to use EVER for a quick shot...or a new special/weapon that we could rely on for more then 5 seconds? To base our future improvement on the idea that this delay will hurt us is, at least to me, devaluing what we expect from our future improvement goals...
I mostly agree as far as weapons are concerned...mostly.My main complaint is the armor delay. However, I do think quick weapon switching has its place in every class.
For example, knockdown lasts 3 seconds or less (however long it takes the mob to get up). Lots of classes switch to a weapon, KD, and them switch to a high power weapon for big damage. However, this delay makes that impossible.
Personally, I have often switched to the launcher, used melee defense 1, then switched to my Flamer for big damage.
I also switch to vibro knuckers to periodically blind mobs during battle, and this change would prevent that.
I also switch to the launcher, bleed the mob, and then switch back...this change would prevent that.
I don't think there is any reason for devs to give us a wide weapon/ability assortment and that ability to mix and match, if they are going to make that mixing impossible because of weapoin switch delays.
Would I want a weapon that I could ONLY use as a quick shot? Probably not. HOWEVER, would I like the ability to quickshot periodically if the opportunity presented itself? Hell yeah.
Weapon switching = tactics. Delays on weapon switching = incentive to do nothing other than stand motionless and shoot/beat a mob with a single weapon and no excitement whatsoever.
Given the choice between tactics and mindless beating, I will choose tactics any day...
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Garvin, come on buddy...think here. What happens when you heal Health and Action? You use up mind. When wearing armor how much mind? 3 times that without armor. And how fast do you regenerate that mind while wearing armor? You don't...armor kills your regeneration. And do you need that mind for battle? Hell yes...most mobs hit all 3 pools.
If you use up all your mind to heal your health and action to full, you are going to die just as fast, if not faster, than you would have without the heals.
If you heal health and action, you are merely moving HAM points around and moving mind points to health and action...you are STILL going to have to take your armor off to regenerate mind. Otherwise you are going to die in your next battle, because most mobs hit all 3 pools.
Also, if you are using TKA as a regeneration tool, please remember that there are 32 classes that cannot meditate.
Daker...I'm afraid it's you who needs to think...or at least get to know better your resources out there...Yes...when you heal you use up the Mind Bar...but if you've used decent Brandy, your Mind will heal at mach speed comparatively...that's why I suggested it...If you've got good brandy you don't even need to remove your helmet to fast heal your mind...many chef's out ther can made brandy with less then 50 filling, so you can take 2 hits and the average length is lasts is around 40 minutes or more...right there that takes care of 99% of your issue...
I don't understand.... Armor equips the second you click equip. What you are saying is that armor acts like it is entering the combat queue and equips well after you click on it right?That is STILL 40 seconds until you are wearing all of your armor and can continue fighting, isn't it?
How long does it take you to click on 9 items in your inventory? Forget about any delays and such...how long would it take you, speed wise, to click on total items? Do you think you could do it in less then 5 seconds? Do you think there are others out there who are faster or slower? It's not a queue...that's what I'm trying ot explain...there is NO queue...it's 5 seconds from when you clicked on it...so even if it took you 1 second per click...in 5 seconds you've have your first peice on...then EVERY second after that a new piece would go on...NOT 5 Seconds later...1 Second because it 5 seconds from the time you clicked the piece...don't think so linear...
I could adapt. I could also stick needles into my eyes and eat live Madagascar cockroaches....IF, and ONLY if, there was a good reason for it. Here we have no good reason. Again, why change and inconvience 33 classes to balance one, when you could just change that one and have everyone be happy?
I do use brandy... It doesn't speed up the mind regeneration process enough that I don't need to take my armor off. Remember, needless downtime is bad. According to your logic, devs are now giving me the choice of 2 things...(1) spend40 seconds waiiting for armor to equip, or (2) leave my armor on and spend twice as long regenerating mind with brandy, and 10 times as long without brandy. Both comprise additional downtime that is NEEDLESS for 33 out of the 34 classes.
You are getting the wrong brandy and I'm sorry to say, it's poor strategy not to use it...for most folks, good brandy is their best friend...During battles and post battle, my mind, fully armored, heals VERY quickly...Even without this change, you should be using brandy...Its one of the best enhancement items in game...During just about any fight I never have to even think about my mind bar when I'm buffed with 2 shots of brandy...Every stim pack I use, my mind immediately heals up...and I wear armor that I have to use spice to get on (on TC)...so my secondary stats are all at 1...You really need to rethink your reasons for not using Brandy...
Easy solution... TAKE JEDI ARMOR AWAY. Jedi NEVER wore armor in the movies, they had robes. Give jedi robes resistances like armor and put the delay on that...problem solved with no effect on me.
VERY VERY VERY Bad Idea...You've totally ignored the bigger picture...You get Jedi Specials without being a full Jedi in the upcoming revamp...so would you take the Armor away from a Commando who can use 1 Lightsaber special that requires no armor? That's the cost of using that special, that they have to be unarmed, but because they've achieved that level, even though they are still a Commando, would you strip them permanently of the ability to wear Armor? You're confusing having Jedi powers with being a Jedi...The Armor issue is going to help keep folks using Jedi Powers in check...if they want to use the abilities over their regular abilities (like Commando specials), then they can't wear their armor...but just because they have that ability doesn't mean they want to use it all the time, hence they shouldn't be penalized by the "No Armor" rule...Eventually, if they progress, they will have to give up all their previous skills and go full Jedi...and at this point it would be suicide for them to wear any Armor (because they'll have no non-jedi specials)...
Garvin, please re-read my posts in this thread...I have already proposed a perfectly viable solution.Either take Jedi armor away (they are alreadygetting uberdefenses in the revamp), or make jedi robes work like armor. Devs just gave wookiees armor, there is no reason they couldn't create an extra type of armor robe for Jedi.
I read you other posts...but as you can see from my reply just above this, it's a VERY BAD idea...it's not taking in the full scope of the revamp...
Besides that, letting the thing get to live is too late. Look at Death Decay...after it came out players said they hated death decay and wanted a different death penalty. It took 3 months of primal screams to get devs tolessen death decay, and we still haven't gotten them to git rid of it / create a different death penalty.
But they did get them to get rid of PvP Death Penalty...There was pissing and moaning prior to it going it...the devs were set on it and they weren't going to change their minds...
Look at the DE changes. DEs started complaining the second TH's combat plan came out. What happened...devs stopped wasting their time on that plan and used player feedback to create and AWESOME plan with utility droids that has substantially improved DE.
And there are many DE's who are upset that they NEVER got to test any of it out...Same with the Crafting change...many wish they had more then 1 day to try it...My Alt is a DE and I believe in strongly giving everything a chance with proper testing...and so far...What you are proposing is like "not fixing the HAR" with the possibility that one day the Devs will take it away...We don't know what the Devs will or won't do...we can't base our path on what might be...we have to focus on what is best for us now and gear those hopes into shaping the future...
If we let this get to live, the devs will not change it because they will have moved onto other revamps. They are not going to backtrack and kill things they spent time implementing to live when they are working on later revamps. In the law, it's called estoppel...if you sit there, knowing something is going to happen to wrong you, and you do nothing about it, you lose your right to complain.
How hard of a change do you think this is? It's basically going into the system and adding/removing delay time...most programmers would agree that this is an easy change...The devs may move on (I hope they do personally) but if enough people give enough valid reasons to make the change, the devs will make the change...But if people just sit back and offer up "because it is an inconveyence" as the best reason against it, I doubt the Devs would even pay attention...especially since they can offer up probably more reasons to keep it....