Commando Archive
Thread: NERF for us all on TC2
Naquiel wrote:
Hey Daker-Naritus. Dosent what Garvin says here sound alot like what i was trying to tell you back in the BH forum. Glad to see that more than one person was right, to bad it wasnt you.
As for me i would just suggest a timer like what we have with pets. It would be that no one can remove or change armor in combat, and when the battles ends we would have a 10-15 second timer in place after the battle. But if we where not in battle and just wanted to we could just remove or change the armor we have on with no penelties. So since the exploit is when we are fighting, lets keep the delay for when we are in battle. This will teach Jedi to keep there robes on for the fear they might get wasted in other armor, and it will teach the rest of us to have our armor on befor heading out into danger.
Message Edited by Naquiel on 06-07-2004 08:19 PM
Naquiel,
All that has been really established is that no one has figured out how this armor delay is really working yet. I have personally seen 4 totally different descriptions of how the delay works on these boards.
Garvin does a great job of testing things, and I trust and give more weight to anything he says over almost every one else on these boards. In fact, if you read this thread (something that has not been your strong point in the past), you will see I have already said that IF the system is as garvin says it is, it is not that big of a nerf.
3problems remain:
(1) In the other thread, I was responding to the delay AS DESCRIBED IN THAT THREAD BY OTHER POSTERS. I was saying that they delay, as described, was a game-breaker as far as I am concerned. You flamed me, telling me to "learn to play the game" and responded with a vague statement that the delay is 5 seconds (which was wrong at that time from the information available). You flamed me, without paying any attention to my real point (see #2),and started name calling before even you had any reliable information about how the delay worked.
(2) Later Garvin weighed in with his tests in this thread, which I have already admitted show the delay to be different than everyone else is describing and a lesser problem than it first appeared. HOWEVER, that does not change my point. My point is that no matter how great the effect of this nerf is, it is annoying and without justification. There is NO reason to burden 33 classes with ANY delay in equipping armor (even if small), just because it is unbalancing for one class (jedi). Any solution to the problem of jedi armor needs to be specifically tailored to jedi.
The problem here is that the devs are nerfing something without a justifiable reason. That is wrong, and you haven't even tried to show any reason why devs have a reason to do so. Your constant rebuttal is: "It's not a big deal." The problem is that nothing should EVER be nerfed without a good reason for it...especially something as annoying as waiting for your armor to equip.
You can continue to stalk me all over the boards saying "the delay is 5 seconds" (thereby continuing to TOTALLY miss the point). The problem is that it doesn't matter to me whether the delay is 1 second or 500 seconds...my ONLY point is that there is no reason for the nerf, and the ONLY reason I used numbers at all was to try to illustrate how annoying armor delays can be. Even if the delay is 5 seconds, it doesn't change the fact that it is annoying and unjustified.
(3) No one is right or wrong yet. Even Garvin has said that the jury is still out on how this thing works. I don't doubt Garvin's results in the least, but I think it is presumptious for you to stalk me all over the boards and continue flaming me with "I am right." The fact is, you really have no idea whether you are right, just like I don't, and neither of us will rightfully be able to say anything for sure until it goes live and we get to actually test it.
My point remains, any delay is unjustified, and I don't want the delay, in any form or length, to go live.
garvin wrote:
Ok...this is going to be a mess...but I'll try...
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Garvin, come on buddy...think here. What happens when you heal Health and Action? You use up mind. When wearing armor how much mind? 3 times that without armor. And how fast do you regenerate that mind while wearing armor? You don't...armor kills your regeneration. And do you need that mind for battle? Hell yes...most mobs hit all 3 pools.
If you use up all your mind to heal your health and action to full, you are going to die just as fast, if not faster, than you would have without the heals.
If you heal health and action, you are merely moving HAM points around and moving mind points to health and action...you are STILL going to have to take your armor off to regenerate mind. Otherwise you are going to die in your next battle, because most mobs hit all 3 pools.
Also, if you are using TKA as a regeneration tool, please remember that there are 32 classes that cannot meditate.
Daker...I'm afraid it's you who needs to think...or at least get to know better your resources out there...Yes...when you heal you use up the Mind Bar...but if you've used decent Brandy, your Mind will heal at mach speed comparatively...that's why I suggested it...If you've got good brandy you don't even need to remove your helmet to fast heal your mind...many chef's out ther can made brandy with less then 50 filling, so you can take 2 hits and the average length is lasts is around 40 minutes or more...right there that takes care of 99% of your issue...
I told you the same thing back in the BH forum and you said i insulted you by saying to learn the game. Well my statment stands and how it sounds, Garvin pretty much told you to do the same. So are you insulted by him to. I recomended a few things but you took it like i was calling you stupid when i wasnt.
I don't understand.... Armor equips the second you click equip. What you are saying is that armor acts like it is entering the combat queue and equips well after you click on it right?That is STILL 40 seconds until you are wearing all of your armor and can continue fighting, isn't it?
How long does it take you to click on 9 items in your inventory? Forget about any delays and such...how long would it take you, speed wise, to click on total items? Do you think you could do it in less then 5 seconds? Do you think there are others out there who are faster or slower? It's not a queue...that's what I'm trying ot explain...there is NO queue...it's 5 seconds from when you clicked on it...so even if it took you 1 second per click...in 5 seconds you've have your first peice on...then EVERY second after that a new piece would go on...NOT 5 Seconds later...1 Second because it 5 seconds from the time you clicked the piece...don't think so linear...
Well there is that 5 sec rule again, maybe i know something that Garvin knows, and maybe if you hang in the Jedi forum and on the TC2 you might know more to. I would recomend you go to test center and try the macro that puts on all you armor and see what it does. It might work that all your armor will be auto put on, but with a 5 sec delay. Or that just pressing all the hot bar icons will pop the armor in less time like garvin says, but only testing will tell. Form all this you seem to like to complain more than test the findings first. So do you think your just jumping the gun on saying this is a game breaker with out all the facts. I gave my input from what i know, which at the time and still is good info, but you came out saying that i was a Dumb*** for coming to the forum with the wrong information.
I could adapt. I could also stick needles into my eyes and eat live Madagascar cockroaches....IF, and ONLY if, there was a good reason for it. Here we have no good reason. Again, why change and inconvience 33 classes to balance one, when you could just change that one and have everyone be happy?
I do use brandy... It doesn't speed up the mind regeneration process enough that I don't need to take my armor off. Remember, needless downtime is bad. According to your logic, devs are now giving me the choice of 2 things...(1) spend40 seconds waiiting for armor to equip, or (2) leave my armor on and spend twice as long regenerating mind with brandy, and 10 times as long without brandy. Both comprise additional downtime that is NEEDLESS for 33 out of the 34 classes.
You are getting the wrong brandy and I'm sorry to say, it's poor strategy not to use it...for most folks, good brandy is their best friend...During battles and post battle, my mind, fully armored, heals VERY quickly...Even without this change, you should be using brandy...Its one of the best enhancement items in game...During just about any fight I never have to even think about my mind bar when I'm buffed with 2 shots of brandy...Every stim pack I use, my mind immediately heals up...and I wear armor that I have to use spice to get on (on TC)...so my secondary stats are all at 1...You really need to rethink your reasons for not using Brandy...
Listen to Garvin on this, he knows what he is talking about.
Easy solution... TAKE JEDI ARMOR AWAY. Jedi NEVER wore armor in the movies, they had robes. Give jedi robes resistances like armor and put the delay on that...problem solved with no effect on me.
VERY VERY VERY Bad Idea...You've totally ignored the bigger picture...You get Jedi Specials without being a full Jedi in the upcoming revamp...so would you take the Armor away from a Commando who can use 1 Lightsaber special that requires no armor? That's the cost of using that special, that they have to be unarmed, but because they've achieved that level, even though they are still a Commando, would you strip them permanently of the ability to wear Armor? You're confusing having Jedi powers with being a Jedi...The Armor issue is going to help keep folks using Jedi Powers in check...if they want to use the abilities over their regular abilities (like Commando specials), then they can't wear their armor...but just because they have that ability doesn't mean they want to use it all the time, hence they shouldn't be penalized by the "No Armor" rule...Eventually, if they progress, they will have to give up all their previous skills and go full Jedi...and at this point it would be suicide for them to wear any Armor (because they'll have no non-jedi specials)...
Garvin, please re-read my posts in this thread...I have already proposed a perfectly viable solution.Either take Jedi armor away (they are alreadygetting uberdefenses in the revamp), or make jedi robes work like armor. Devs just gave wookiees armor, there is no reason they couldn't create an extra type of armor robe for Jedi.
I read you other posts...but as you can see from my reply just above this, it's a VERY BAD idea...it's not taking in the full scope of the revamp...
Besides that, letting the thing get to live is too late. Look at Death Decay...after it came out players said they hated death decay and wanted a different death penalty. It took 3 months of primal screams to get devs tolessen death decay, and we still haven't gotten them to git rid of it / create a different death penalty.
But they did get them to get rid of PvP Death Penalty...There was pissing and moaning prior to it going it...the devs were set on it and they weren't going to change their minds...
Look at the DE changes. DEs started complaining the second TH's combat plan came out. What happened...devs stopped wasting their time on that plan and used player feedback to create and AWESOME plan with utility droids that has substantially improved DE.
And there are many DE's who are upset that they NEVER got to test any of it out...Same with the Crafting change...many wish they had more then 1 day to try it...My Alt is a DE and I believe in strongly giving everything a chance with proper testing...and so far...What you are proposing is like "not fixing the HAR" with the possibility that one day the Devs will take it away...We don't know what the Devs will or won't do...we can't base our path on what might be...we have to focus on what is best for us now and gear those hopes into shaping the future...
If we let this get to live, the devs will not change it because they will have moved onto other revamps. They are not going to backtrack and kill things they spent time implementing to live when they are working on later revamps. In the law, it's called estoppel...if you sit there, knowing something is going to happen to wrong you, and you do nothing about it, you lose your right to complain.
How hard of a change do you think this is? It's basically going into the system and adding/removing delay time...most programmers would agree that this is an easy change...The devs may move on (I hope they do personally) but if enough people give enough valid reasons to make the change, the devs will make the change...But if people just sit back and offer up "because it is an inconveyence" as the best reason against it, I doubt the Devs would even pay attention...especially since they can offer up probably more reasons to keep it....
Message Edited by Naquiel on 06-08-2004 09:45 AM