Commando Archive
Thread: Insulted by the T21
a) comparing damages - oh please, in every category you mentioned rifles are better, plus AP3
Oh, and we don't get to put anyone on fire, our compensation for taking more skill points and time to become commandos is a crappy orange ball gun that has the same sound as the launcher pistol.
b) Yes we are broken now, but had you actually read the previous posts or were aware of the situation at all you'd realize that there are several other issues here.
First is the matter of profession role, where Rifleman now have the same number of AP3 weapons as commandos. Well same as commandos after the rocket launcher actually gets implemented (assuming it even has AP3). The other rifles out there beat the crap out of the other commando weapons in the area of AP (not even talking about to-hit, dps, etc etc which theoretically are scheduled to be fixed for commando weapons). So rifleman get the high AP/antivehicle weapons *plus* the ability to target the mind pool making them good against creatures/npcs *plus* better defense mods *plus* several other advantages (cover, snipe shots, ranged DB, etc). Even assuming Commandos get weapons *far* superior in DPS to rifles we would still be worse against almost anything. The sole down point for riflemen would be the added damage from melee attacks, which imo does not counter all their other advantages compared to Commando. Not calling for a nerf, rather saying that there needs to be reason to go Commando at all, let alone justify the added time to get Master Commando and the much higher investment of skill points.
On the issue of overall combat ability Commandos should have no peers with the possible exception of Bounty Hunters. Even Master Pistoleers with the smugglers Dirty Fighting line should not have the same overall power. Why? First off, it takes more time to become a Commando then any other combat profession (BHs probably used to take longer because of the time needed to get the survival xp, but now you can get survival xp at a much better clip).
It also takes more skill points then the other combat classes, in fact a master rifleman has twice the free skill points as a Master Commando.
No matter how much you play that 250 skill point is a hard cap, thus giving skill points a high value. Hell, people could master Rifleman AND Pistoleer or Carbineer at which point they'd have the same number of skill points remaining as a Master Commando (81). Master Pistoleer and Dirty Fighting Specialist leaves a whopping 109 points left. Master Bounty Hunters only have 33 points left, but they are not pure combat, they get their own content (investigate line), plus their prerequisites are *gasp* actually useful. Pistol/Carb Specialist help them with two of the BH lines in terms of combat ability, plus they move faster on rough terrain, have traps that can be quite helpful, get to-hit bonuses against creatures plus mask scent to help them avoid creature agros, and tents to help them heal themselves faster while in the field (again not calling for a nerf - obviously not necessary - just noting that BHs added skill point investment gives them tangible benefits).
The reason the added cost of skill points is such a big factor is the principle of opportunity cost. That is, when looking at the cost of anything you must evaluate not only its price but what you could have gotten had you done/bought something else. So, the added cost of Commando has to be reasonably equivalent with the kind of abilities we could have got had we spent the skill points on other things. Obviously the value of a Master whatever varies from person to person. But with combat classes the ultimate purpose of all of them is to destroy things, thats a pretty broad area allowing variation at what professions are good at (pve, pvp, solo, group, vs different types of MOBs, etc). But when it all boils down, A Commando ought to be as effective as another player who spends the same amount of skill points to increase their combat ability. Getting master brawler + master marksmen or the like is not what I'm talking about, rather getting the optimum value out of those points. I'm not even considering things that can help in combat but don't directly affect the ability to do damage, so thats not including medic (healing, duh) or scout skills (the explore/trap lines in particular).
I am not saying Commandos should be gods, or that we should be more effective in every situation then other combat classes. Rather, the power of commandos overall should reflect the added investment in time + skill points to become one.
Ok, let me try to spell this out for the riflemen posting here...
1.) Commandos are supposed to be THE vehicle killers. That means AP3 weapons. We have absolutely NO AP3 weapons besides the rocket launcher, which is only a 5 charge item.
2.) HEAVY armor (Armor 3) should only be on vehicles since it is the highest armor rating.
3.) T21 with AP3 is now just as effective at killing vehicles as any commando weapons (once they are theoretically fixed) with half the skill points spent.
Now tell me the reason for becomming a commando now? I am NOT calling for a nerf of another class. Only their weapon. AP3 on a rifle is insane. To say that a rifle has higher punching power than a commandos heavy weapons, well... It's infuriating. That is exactly why I've dropped commando.
I spent alot of time and effort getting to novice commando, then a month waiting to be fixed. Now this blow to the head. I guess I wouldn't be so mad if SOE would TELL US what our role is supposed to be now. But they haven't, and our only intended role so far, as vehicle killers, has been taken over by riflemen. How would you riflemen like it if we commandos got your skills in the commando tree?
You guys are.... morons!
T21 is an ENERGY weapon.
Its good to KILL people as a SNIPER not to destroy tanks.
Man...
Vaalenko, don't even start calling names here.
What are you looking at, the ATST for energy resists? The ATST doesn't mean jack in the scheme of things. How do you know any other vehicle that comes out will have NO resists to energy? Any vehicle that comes out with low, or no, energy resists will be able to be killed JUST AS EASILLY by a rifleman as a commando.
Commandos aren't pushing into your realm of abilities guys. By the devs actions you are pushing into ours, and that's just not cool.
Bah, I give up. Ya'll bitch about this crap as much as you want. I'm done. Go make your own conclusions, and do us all a favor. Go pick up commando for a week and see just how bad off we already are, even after the weapons fix patch.
vaalenko wrote:T21 is an ENERGY weapon.
Its good to KILL people as a SNIPER not to destroy tanks.
Finally, a riflemen speaking the voice of reason, if unintentionally. You see, the issue is that right now destroying "tanks" is exactly what the T21 does, better in fact then anything else as it is the only AP3 weapon in the game. The AT-ST has heavy armor, 100% resist against stun and 60% (or is it 70%? always get mixed up) resists against everything else. That means even though the T21 is an energy weapon it has the same effectiveness killing "tanks" as any other damage type, except that AP3 means it does far more damage then anything else against heavy armor MOBs.
noptov52 wrote:
Cydonia - try actually knowing what you are talking before posting
a) comparing damages - oh please, in every category you mentioned rifles are better, plus AP3
Oh, and we don't get to put anyone on fire, our compensation for taking more skill points and time to become commandos is a crappy orange ball gun that has the same sound as the launcher pistol.
b) Yes we are broken now, but had you actually read the previous posts or were aware of the situation at all you'd realize that there are several other issues here.
First is the matter of profession role, where Rifleman now have the same number of AP3 weapons as commandos. Well same as commandos after the rocket launcher actually gets implemented (assuming it even has AP3). The other rifles out there beat the crap out of the other commando weapons in the area of AP (not even talking about to-hit, dps, etc etc which theoretically are scheduled to be fixed for commando weapons). So rifleman get the high AP/antivehicle weapons *plus* the ability to target the mind pool making them good against creatures/npcs *plus* better defense mods *plus* several other advantages (cover, snipe shots, ranged DB, etc). Even assuming Commandos get weapons *far* superior in DPS to rifles we would still be worse against almost anything. The sole down point for riflemen would be the added damage from melee attacks, which imo does not counter all their other advantages compared to Commando. Not calling for a nerf, rather saying that there needs to be reason to go Commando at all, let alone justify the added time to get Master Commando and the much higher investment of skill points.
On the issue of overall combat ability Commandos should have no peers with the possible exception of Bounty Hunters. Even Master Pistoleers with the smugglers Dirty Fighting line should not have the same overall power. Why? First off, it takes more time to become a Commando then any other combat profession (BHs probably used to take longer because of the time needed to get the survival xp, but now you can get survival xp at a much better clip).
It also takes more skill points then the other combat classes, in fact a master rifleman has twice the free skill points as a Master Commando.
No matter how much you play that 250 skill point is a hard cap, thus giving skill points a high value. Hell, people could master Rifleman AND Pistoleer or Carbineer at which point they'd have the same number of skill points remaining as a Master Commando (81). Master Pistoleer and Dirty Fighting Specialist leaves a whopping 109 points left. Master Bounty Hunters only have 33 points left, but they are not pure combat, they get their own content (investigate line), plus their prerequisites are *gasp* actually useful. Pistol/Carb Specialist help them with two of the BH lines in terms of combat ability, plus they move faster on rough terrain, have traps that can be quite helpful, get to-hit bonuses against creatures plus mask scent to help them avoid creature agros, and tents to help them heal themselves faster while in the field (again not calling for a nerf - obviously not necessary - just noting that BHs added skill point investment gives them tangible benefits).
The reason the added cost of skill points is such a big factor is the principle of opportunity cost. That is, when looking at the cost of anything you must evaluate not only its price but what you could have gotten had you done/bought something else. So, the added cost of Commando has to be reasonably equivalent with the kind of abilities we could have got had we spent the skill points on other things. Obviously the value of a Master whatever varies from person to person. But with combat classes the ultimate purpose of all of them is to destroy things, thats a pretty broad area allowing variation at what professions are good at (pve, pvp, solo, group, vs different types of MOBs, etc). But when it all boils down, A Commando ought to be as effective as another player who spends the same amount of skill points to increase their combat ability. Getting master brawler + master marksmen or the like is not what I'm talking about, rather getting the optimum value out of those points. I'm not even considering things that can help in combat but don't directly affect the ability to do damage, so thats not including medic (healing, duh) or scout skills (the explore/trap lines in particular).
I am not saying Commandos should be gods, or that we should be more effective in every situation then other combat classes. Rather, the power of commandos overall should reflect the added investment in time + skill points to become one.
this in in respose to noptov52 post............
you wrote
"Cydonia - try actually knowing what you are talking before posting"
i think that you should here is why:
I never made any claims about the commando profession i merely pointed out 2 FACTS. and yes they are facts!!
my point was: no oneis compairing damnages of the finished commando profession and the finished rifleman profession.....why????....... because they are NOT **edit**ING FINISHED
then i went onwith the ideathat.... hey lets wait it out til both porfessions are done then lets have it out???
you said
a) comparing damages - oh please, in every category you mentioned rifles are better, plus AP3
that has nothing to do with my **edit**ing point and the **edit**ing point of this post. this post is not about making command weapons better its about making rifleman weapons worse, i am not trying to compair weapons now i merely said that NO one was..... and why is no one doing that.......... BECAUSE THE COMMANDO PROFESSIONS AND ALL ITS GUNS ARE BROKEN AND ANY COMPARISON WOULD BE STUPID!!! which then led into my conclusion
DONT TRY TO NERF BY COMPAREING RIFLEMAN TO COMMANDO WHEN NO SUCH COMPAIRISON CAN BE MADE
i do happen to like the argument that commmando should be the only class with AP3 weapons for a roleplaying reasons
but this is not the main point people are making
then you said
b) Yes we are broken now, but had you actually read the previous posts or were aware of the situation at all you'd realize that there are several other issues here.
NO THERE ARE NO OTHER ISSUES HERE THIS BOARD IS ABOUT THE T21 ISSUE NOTHING ELSE
IN AN ARGUMENT IT HELPS TO STAY ON **edit**ING TOPIC
now if you want to make a new post listing these issues you just listed then knock your self out i dont care but this post is about one **edit**ing issue
there are some other nitpicky things like all the points you make that will not fit once the commando is fixed
First off, it takes more time to become a Commando then any other combat profession (so what it will probably be fixed later still has nothing to do with the FACTS i pointed out in my post)
Rather, the power of commandos overall should reflect the added investment in time + skill points to become one (what does this have to do with nerfing the T21)
better defense mods *plus* several other advantages (cover, snipe shots, ranged DB, etc) ( knowYOUR information these are currently brokenright now )
and we don't get to put anyone on fire ( umm yes you dothis is flat out not true. now you may respond to this by saying "well its broken now" that doent matter for the sake of this argument FACT is ONE DAY IT WILL WORK WHAT THEN???? will your justification for nerfing T21 still hold????
and all this **edit** about how many skill points i put in for what i get would be a great topic FOR ANOTHER BOARD but not this one
well it looks like the whole thing breaks down into a few points
1) you are compairing 2 broken professions (one being more broken than the other) and that is stupid
2) since you dont know how commando will eventually add up to... what is your justifcation for nerfing the T21 (especially with tons of good rifleman posts defending its AP3(good enought to getdevs to change ther mind)and tons of posts say and PROVING that rifleman puts out less damage than BH Pistoleers and other professions)
3) you said i need to know what i am talking about..... well i think you dont .......1.you obviously didnt understand my point(a little too deep for you??) 2. you obiously dont know a **edit** thing about the rifleman profession 3. your whole post had nothing to do with my post or the topic of this board
**edit** kids!! give them an inch and they take a mile
Dude you have no clue what you talking about. You can shot 6-8 specials with T21 in best case. NOT more. Dont forget it drains between 150-210 mind pool for each special!
And Who gonna do this? Really you think i gonna empty my mind (which cant be healed) to get 10% (in best case) of a AT-ST pool?
No dude.
The reason that T21 is AP3 (and always was) is that its a sniper gun. AR is not a "Tank" only think, every mob out there has a AR, many NPCs AR2 or AR3. A sniper with AR1 or even 2 gun is normally useless solo and in group. Rifleman is supposed to kill in few shots or has no chance. Rifleman has 250% melee penalty, it has movement penalty more than any other class, It use mind pool for specials. The fact that they damage mind pool is irrelevant because: 1) They drain their own mind faster normally 2) Almost No Mob/NPC recharges HAM. 3)There is no Doctor Buff for second and 3rdmind pools.
However they have to re adjust resistences on heavy mobs like AT-ST. Those are supposed to be weak on explosive and other commando guns. I think its better to whine about that. 
And btw i never said that im not a commando. 
I raised this point in the T21 discussion thread on the Discussion forums and got flamed by, you guessed it, riflemen. The AP3 damage on the T21 is all but destroyed the commando class. We were told we were going to be the anti-vehicle/anti-building class. There's no need for us now, not with the riflemen having an AP3 weapon.
I've dropped commando, I'm sick of getting so pissed off at the ineptitude of the Devs reguarding this class. I might pick it up again at some point, but for now, I'm just sick of all this bull**edit**. The Commando class is the red-headed stepchild of the Devs, and the one that gets kicked in the nuts the most.
And I'd like to add one last comment.
DON'T ASK FOR A NERF!
Nerfing something isn't the answer, raising our weapons to this level or more powerful for our situation on the T21 would be a better answer then asking to nerf it. It's nerfs that ruin a game and make people quite. Nerfing is always the easiest response but rarely the best.
Unless commandos get AP4 weapons, there is absolutely no justification for a rifle, no matter how high-powered, to be AP3.
Don't want to nerf the T21? I'm fine with that, as long as the truly heavy weapons (COMMANDO WEAPONS, for those who don't get it) get AP FOUR or FIVE.
noptov52 wrote:
Oh, and I forgot to mention that the multiple hotfixes of the T21 was a real slap in the face of Commandos. We've been told repeatedly such changes require extensive testing on TC before going live, yet Riflemen got three in under a week. I fail to see how adding AP3 and monkeying around with the other stats of the T21 somehow should require less testing time then boosting the DPS of grenades or the like.
That shows a real lack of respect for Commandos.
Umm this is not a slap in the face for commands. On the big patch they tried to fix at least one thing for every profession and ( if you had any idea what you were talking about) you would know that the NUMBER 1 rifleman thing that all rifleman wanted fixed FIRST was the T21 damange. so to say its a slap in the face that the devs didnt just ingore every profession but ours (commando)IS **edit**ING ASS HOLEISH, STUPID, AND GREEDY. SO **edit** OFF
and all this talk about "monkeying arround with stats" is stupid. The T21 ON DAY ONE was supposed to be AP3 so when people merely asked for it to be AP3 they made it that way.Then, when it came up doing 3200+ damage on some hits(not all) they got worried and changed it TO FIT THE GAME not to "monkey arround"
For all those of you crying "nerf the T21" there's a VERY GOOD REASON why the devs did what they did to it. The overall damage on it is lower than it originally was, and the AP was boosted to 3.
Why was this done?
The T21 was doing too much damage, killing most players in one hit. They didn't want every rifleman to have the ability to kill everyone else in one hit. That would make riflemen unbalanced.
They couldn't JUST lower the damage, to balance it, why? Theres a very good reason for that.
The rifleman's mind pool damage is only done to ONE PART OF THE BODY. In other words, whereas a pistoleer or carbineer hits MULTIPLE BODY PARTS, THE RIFLEMAN HITS ONLY ONE. So, to protect against a pistoleer or carbineer, multiple pieces of armor are required, and not everyone has this or wants to do this. So although some players will have good defense against these two, some players will always be vulnerable to them since not everyone is willing to deal with the encumbrances of a full set of armor.
What is the overall point here?
If the T21 did not have AP3, then in PVP, every single Creature Handler, Bounty Hunter, Carbineer, Pistoleer, Teras Kasi, Combat Medic, Doctor, and everyone else would be able to basically MAKE THEMSELVES INVINCIBLE TO A RIFLEMAN BY SLAPPING ON A HELMET. JUST A HELMET. NOT A FULL SET OF ARMOR, NOT A TON OF ENCUMBRANCES, JUST A FREAKING HELMET. THATS A **edit** SMALL PRICE TO PAY FOR BEING IMMUNE TO A RIFLEMAN, ONE OF THE BIGGEST THREATS ON THE BATTLEFIELD.
I personally saw this tactic used by my opponents when the T21 damage had been nerfed, but the weapon was not AP3. With JUST A HELMET, it went from me taking 2 hits to kill them, to it taking 10 hits to kill them. With a cooldown time of about 10 seconds on each attack, this is the difference between POSSIBLY BEING ABLE TO WIN, AND BEING GUARANTEED TO LOSE.
I mean really, how many PVP battles last 100 seconds or more? NONE OF THEM.
This is why the T21 is AP3. It's not so Rifleman REPLACE COMMANDOS AS THE "ANTI-VEHICLE" CLASS. It's so the rifleman has a fighting chance in PVP. The fact is, the T21 is an energy weapon, which any vehicles are sure to have a resistance to.
I agree that the commando class is curretnly broken, and needs to be fixed. I think commando SHOULD be the ideal anti-vehicle class. But why don't we wait till there are VEHICLES IN THE GAME, BEFORE WE START WHINING THAT WE ARENT THE BEST AT DESTROYING THEM.
I'm sure the devs had this role in mind for the commando class when they designed it, and I'm sure they will fix this class in time and make it useful. But crying for UNNECESSARY AND UNBALANCED NERFSto another profession is not going to fix this one.
Thanks for reading.
lets just go with real life for a second here.....
most sniper rifles are .308 cal perfect for killin people but not for tanks and armor and such
is there a rifle that IS used for heavy armor...????.....
WHY YES THERE IS!!!!!! THE .5 CAL RIFLE IS......
as a matter of facta .5cal is know to be able to shoot through tanks!!!!
but you guys are right AP3 is probably unrealistic only commandos should have it( iam being sarcastic)