CUEmu - Thread Posts

Latenighter

Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:38 am

garvin wrote:

Ya know I luv ya Skeptic...no worries...

Think about the idea this way as well...What if you are left with 2 options...one where you can enhanced your defenses via TKA/TKM but you give up the offensive ability to get ranged specials...OR...your can enhance your offensive abilities via ranged specials, but you give up your potential Defenses by not being able to get TKA/TKM...That's where strategy comes in...what would be more important to you...what if we gave every Commando that option, the choice of whether they would rather have better ranged specials to use with thier Commando weapons or would they rather be close range tanks with higher defenses but little or no ranged specials (only Melee Range specials)...

Which template would you rather play? Or would you try to meet somewhere in the middle of the 2?

Right there we'd create Commandos with different "specialization" possibilities...Not all Commandos would look and feel the same...

Message Edited by garvin on 09-17-2004 10:04 AM

Ok. Color me enthusiastic.

If I'm understanding the thrust of this idea, a Commando (and a Commando ONLY) would be able to use the specials dedicated to other weapon classes (pistol, carbine, rifle) with our non consumable heavy weapons (FT, HAR, LP).

In order to earn the use of those non-commando specials, the Commando would have to earn those specials by dabbling in the other professions (Pistoleer, Carbineer, Rifleman) in order to earn them.

These special attacks would be governed by the heavy weapon accuracy / speed (shrieking gasp) that the Commando possesses, not the pistol/carbine/rifle accuracy / speed modifiers that would be earned by dabbling in the other professions. This will make us slower and more inaccurate in using these specials with our heavy weapons compared to the other base professions, but our damage base is/will be higher using the FT/HAR than the base profession weapons (LP already uses the pistol speed/accuracy mods and we shouldn't nerf it). And if we want to use the higher speed / accuracy, we always have the option to switch to the DE-10/T21/Elite for the base profession - we earned the use of those weapons by dabbling.

What does that give us? EVERY Commando will receive the ability to use the specials we EARN in the marksman tree with our Heavy Weapons! What does this do for us? It only gives us the ability to target EVERY pool (Mindshot1, Healthshot1, Actionshot1 plus Head/Body/Leg shots). We ALREADY have these skills, we just can't use any of them with Commando heavy weapons except the LP with healthshot. This makes our base skill requirement USEFUL to us. I think this part would apply to your hybrid friends the Bounty Hunters, since they have Master Marksman Pre-Requisite also. Perhaps this is a skill unlocked in the Master Marksman box?

If you'd rather have better defenses, go ahead and take TK. You don't get the use of more ranged specials that you didn't earn with Skill Points, but you survive longer using the Commando specials at closer range. What that range is, is debatable. I like the 32m suggestions personally to get us out of lunge range.

You want to use Fanshot with the FT? Go dabble Pistoleer. Want Strafeshot2 for your HAR? Go Master Rifleman. Want to have some crowd control? Look for it in Carbineer. Or maybe you are a tricky type and want to surprise the heck out of your opponent ..... Smuggle your way to Last Ditch. This seems to be what a 250sp Commando would be all about!

Now the one thing that I would like to see in this that hasn't been discussed or suggested ..... what is the deal with our unarmed pre-requisite? Why is it useful to us? That would be answered if we had the ability to use the Brawler Unarmed tree specials WHILE we have a Heavy Weapon equipped! We'd be able to Lunge1 to KD, Blind, Stun, and UnarmedHit1. Not sure if Beserk would make sense, or if we should ask for Center of Being while FT equipped (helps with those defenses we lack, no?), but it would suddenly make our pre-requisite USEFUL to us and give us the ability to do some very basic state applications other than SuppressionFire1 posture down.

If this vision is what you are talking about Garvin, I think it would be REALLY interesting. Letting us use the Pre-Requisite profession specials as a hotfix PRE-Combat Revamp would make HUGE differences, and would be easy to code. Having this pick and choose ability reserved for Commando would make us truly a class to be feared and the wide ranging death dealer profession. It's a good idea if we think it through.

Or I could be totally off base and will hear about it shortly!

The mission is yours if you choose to accept it. This tape will self-destruct in 5 seconds.

Rien - Master Commando
Corbantis

Message Edited by Latenighter on 09-17-2004 11:41 AM

Message Edited by Latenighter on 09-17-2004 11:47 AM

RIEN - Master Commando
"We are the guys skilled with all ranged weapons. They should let us act like it"

garvin

Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:48 am

#28

Latenighter wrote:

garvin wrote:

Ya know I luv ya Skeptic...no worries...

Think about the idea this way as well...What if you are left with 2 options...one where you can enhanced your defenses via TKA/TKM but you give up the offensive ability to get ranged specials...OR...your can enhance your offensive abilities via ranged specials, but you give up your potential Defenses by not being able to get TKA/TKM...That's where strategy comes in...what would be more important to you...what if we gave every Commando that option, the choice of whether they would rather have better ranged specials to use with thier Commando weapons or would they rather be close range tanks with higher defenses but little or no ranged specials (only Melee Range specials)...

Which template would you rather play? Or would you try to meet somewhere in the middle of the 2?

Right there we'd create Commandos with different "specialization" possibilities...Not all Commandos would look and feel the same...

Message Edited by garvin on 09-17-2004 10:04 AM

Ok. Color me enthusiastic.

If I'm understanding the thrust of this idea, a Commando (and a Commando ONLY) would be able to use the specials dedicated to other weapon classes (pistol, carbine, rifle) with our non consumable heavy weapons (FT, HAR, LP).

Never really said that...just said that with my hypothetical idea, Commandos would be able to use any other profession specials with our Heavy (Non-Consumbale)weapons, and of our Specials wouldn't work on theirs...

This idea could possibly be expanded for other professions to share specials...who knows...But Commando specials would be off limits because of their power and the fact that we are a higher costing hybrid profession...to use Flame specials, you'd have to have a FT equiped...and if that's the case, you'd have to deal in Commando Speed and Accuracy (so you'd have to have more then 1 tree to be as good as a more committed Commando)...

I can see a Rifleman using Carbineer specials and vice versa...heck, they earned the specials, why shouldn't they be able to use them across their various weapons? Would make for some interesting template building and open up some cool possibilities...

But remember, I've said it repeatedly, this is all hypothetical...just because I participated in this discussion does not mean that I'm speaking from my knowledge of the Combat Revamp...I'm just idea generating to see how open or closed you all would be to this idea...

Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie
Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith
ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

IdrisTycho

Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:01 pm

#29

Well since they are revamping the skills anyway, maybe they could move skills like Last Ditch to the master box. Then they could make a rule that you can use a special that you earn in any tree with any similar weapon, so long as that skill is not a "Master Skill". That would simplify it, rather than forcing people to try to figure out which skills they can and cannot use. Besides Last Ditch is way too good a skill to allow a person to pick up with one column of smuggler.

To solve the problem with a person doing /flameSingle2 with a T21 you could do away with the skill all together and call it:

/heavyWeaponSingle2

Then you would make it so that all heavy wepaons: Heavy Acid Rifle, FlameThrower, and Light Lightning Cannon would use the same specials. Since you could only use the special with heavy weapons, there would be no problem with riflemen using their T21 to apply a flame DOT. This would have the side effect that BHs could apply a flame DOT with their LLC, but that doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me. As long as we as commandos get some good stuff as well I think it's reasonable.

Latenighter

Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:29 pm

#30

garvin wrote:

IdrisTycho wrote:

Hmm, Last Ditch shot with a Krayt Flame Thrower... This could mess things up more than help I would think.

That's why certain high end specials would have to be restricted to or restricted from certain weapons...just like other weapons wouldn't be able to do our Flame or Acid Specials, our FT wouldn't be able to do Last Ditch...it would all have to be tested for "over-uberness"...

Gentlemen,

Are we sure about this observation? Yes, Last Ditch is a great special. But it's not THAT much better.

..................Speed Mod......Damage Mod
Last Ditch............x4............x9
Flame Single 2.....x4............x8

Not a huge difference. When you consider that the Flame Single 2 gives a DOT of 10% of the initial damage, it does pretty much equivalent damage to Last Ditch which provides no DOT. I got this information from a pistol special speed calculator and the Zhorx Speed/Mod listing. It looks like this could be something like a 5-10% increase in DPS (adjusting for DOT) between the two specials, which is pretty marginal, for an investment of 20 skill points.

As such, while it would SOUND like a big advantage, it's actually not a huge step up in damage that we would deal. As Garvin said, everything has to be tested for "Over-uberness."

Rien - Master Commando

Message Edited by Latenighter on 09-17-2004 01:36 PM

RIEN - Master Commando
"We are the guys skilled with all ranged weapons. They should let us act like it"

CyberData4

Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:32 pm

#31

Honesly, I don't want any defenses. Any. Commando's are suppose to be offensive juggernauts.When we got our first "fix" we were. But then as other professions got up to master and as crafters were abel to build better weapons, other professions were able to match our damage AND fire faster than us.

I'm opposed to using rifle specials with our heavy weapons. And I really don't see it as a good thing for the profession. We have our weapons and our skills. Those skills are what should aid a commando. Look at it this way: A TKM doesn't have to dabble in Swordsman to do what they do. A Rifleman doesn't have to dabble in pistols to do what they do. The current state of the launcher pistol is a perfect example. It works better with a pistoleer than a master commando. I don't want to see the same thing happen with the HAR and Flamethrower.

Granted there is nothing wrong with dabbling but I don't think it should be mandatory for a profession to have to dabble to use their own weapons correctly.

The flamer simply needs an accuracy boost and increased speed.

The HAR needs increased range and either an acid "burn" that affects the action bar or AP2 and increased speed.

The launcher pistol needs its own specials.

Message Edited by CyberData4 on 09-17-2004 04:38 PM

Novock

Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:48 pm

#32

I'm just going to throw my 2 cents into the conversation in regards to defense. Why don't they give us an active defense wouldn't that help us a lot. And if it were unique then it wouldn't stack so no worries about overpowering. By active defnse I mean like rifleman have block, pistoleers have dodge, crabineers have counterstrike, TKA have toughness why not give us some type of defense as such? Wuoldn't that go along ways to helping our defense problems?

Novock
Cr|mson Kn|ghtsCo-Leader of <-CK->

Tim-bo
Cr|mson Kn|ghts- Architect/Droid Engineer/Merchant

CyberData4

Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:01 pm

#33

Perhaps, but the whole logic behind our lack of defenses was suppose to be our "overwhelming offensive" capabilities. And at first, it was balanced. Commandos did unprecidented damage but paid for it with no defenses. As a commando, if I had to choose between pure offense or a balance between the two, I would choose pure offense every single time.

Gunner_excel

Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:37 pm

#34

I Think it is a awful idea to combine the Flamer and Headshot3, i like Garvins idea but i dont see it working. For comparison lets look at the flamer and t-21 rifle, every flamer ive ever had has been faster and does more damage than a t-21. The only thing the t-21 has over the flamer is its AP3 and more accurate at long range. This is fine in PVE but in PVP this would be unbalanced, when you consider that the flamer is almost twice as fast as the t21 the accuracy diffrence between the two means alot less.

Im guessing Garvin your implying that we would not get the rifleman accuracy and speed modifiers but just the specials, even so I figure that would put the speed of the t21 and a good flamer at about the same level. When you look at it like this taking in consideration the Ap3 of the t21 the flamer and it would do about the same damage at about the same speed but the master rifleman would still have greater accuracy so that may balance it out.

This is my problem with that system Garvin, I am NOT a Rifleman I am a Commando. If i wanted to be a Rifleman I would master it and run around with the t21. Yes Im also a TKM and a 0030 Smuggler but I only use the TKM for defense and stuff like rancor, I use the FD in PVE against high end mobs like SBD's and Krayt.

Like i said earlier the Easiest and fastest fix we could get is the increase of are range on flame singles to 32 meters there is no reason they couldntchanged this in no time in a mini update and it would help us alot in PVE and PVP. Garvin I want you to know you are a god amoung corrispondents and the second best commando I know

Keep up the great work.

Gunner-excel
Corbantis
Master Commando
TKM
0030 Smuggler
I am first to fight, the point of the spear. I spread death and destruction,
lay waste to my enemies. I am a force to be feared, I am first to the clone center.

Gunner_excel

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:31 pm

#35

I dont understand Garvin I am a 250 point commando but unless we get defense then taking my TKM and putting in to anther range proffesion would mean pretty quick death in pvp. Im harping on the range increase for the flamer as a quick easy fix that would help us as a community right now, it should be an easy programing fix and every commando in the game would love it right away, and it would not be to powerful or unbalanced.

Gunner-excel
Corbantis
Master Commando
TKM
0030 Smuggler
I am first to fight, the point of the spear. I spread death and destruction,
lay waste to my enemies. I am a force to be feared, I am first to the clone center.

Novock

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:43 pm

#36

Whats with the one star, I just made a suggestion. I actually would rather see more offense then defense but was just making a suggestion for thought. Oh well.

Novock
Cr|mson Kn|ghtsCo-Leader of <-CK->

Tim-bo
Cr|mson Kn|ghts- Architect/Droid Engineer/Merchant

garvin

Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:10 pm

#37

Gunner_excel wrote:

I dont understand Garvin I am a 250 point commando but unless we get defense then taking my TKM and putting in to anther range proffesion would mean pretty quick death in pvp. Im harping on the range increase for the flamer as a quick easy fix that would help us as a community right now, it should be an easy programing fix and every commando in the game would love it right away, and it would not be to powerful or unbalanced.

Why would that be? If you got Ranged specials, wouldn't you be able to stay out of Melee range? wouldn't you also (in the case of Rifleman/Commando) have the stacked defenses? You'd actually be better off then you are now, even as a Commando/TKM because you'd be able to deal with kiters and you wouldn't have to stay in Melee Range...

Increasing the range of our specials wouldn't help our defenses...it would just be a band-aid...it would be fairly quickly that we'd be complaining about only have 32m specials and being kited to death by other ranged professions....

If you like soloPvP, then you'd probably "shop" for a profession that can give you both the ranged abilities and defenses you need to create your balanced template...if you prefer group action and had members who could defend you, you might turn to all offense...if you want to be the defender/tank of your team, you would probably take TKM...If you prefer solo PvE, you might stick with Commando/TKM because NPC's rarely kiting you (meaning ranged attacks might be less important)...

You wouldn't die more, you'd die less actually and the reason is that you'd have a better chance of killing your opponent then before...

Currently as a Commando/TKM what are you getting out of that Combo? You are getting defenses that stack, but you are also getting unarmed specials that gain nothing from your Commando background...many commando who take TKM often find themselves either fighting as a Commando or a TKM in a fight...not as a combo of both...Same with Commando/Rifleman, you either use the FT or the T21, but what if you could use the FT like it was the T21? Don't think like a Commando/TKM...think of a Commando that is enhanced by TKM....

Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie
Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith
ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

Gunner_excel

Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:35 pm

#38

Mmmmmmmmmm

/agree

/kowtow

Gunner-excel
Corbantis
Master Commando
TKM
0030 Smuggler
I am first to fight, the point of the spear. I spread death and destruction,
lay waste to my enemies. I am a force to be feared, I am first to the clone center.

Latenighter

Sat Sep 18, 2004 12:01 am

#39

garvin wrote:

Never really said that...just said that with my hypothetical idea, Commandos would be able to use any other profession specials with our Heavy (Non-Consumbale) weapons, and of our Specials wouldn't work on theirs...
This idea could possibly be expanded for other professions to share specials...who knows...But Commando specials would be off limits because of their power and the fact that we are a higher costing hybrid profession...to use Flame specials, you'd have to have a FT equiped...and if that's the case, you'd have to deal in Commando Speed and Accuracy (so you'd have to have more then 1 tree to be as good as a more committed Commando)...
I can see a Rifleman using Carbineer specials and vice versa...heck, they earned the specials, why shouldn't they be able to use them across their various weapons? Would make for some interesting template building and open up some cool possibilities...
But remember, I've said it repeatedly, this is all hypothetical...just because I participated in this discussion does not mean that I'm speaking from my knowledge of the Combat Revamp...I'm just idea generating to see how open or closed you all would be to this idea...

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Commando specials would definitely be off limits to non-commando weapons. And I think any profession should have full use of it's pre-requisite professions when using the tools of their elite profession. If a Rifleman wants to earn Carbineer skills and shoot strafeshot2 with a carbine, I'm not going to begrudge them that. But maybe having the ABILITY to do that tied to the master marksman box would be a way of adding some cost/benefit to the equation.

And I don't think I tried to reference the Combat Revamp in any way. All I said was in an edit that it would be great if the ability to use pre-requisite specials with the elite profession weapons equipped Pre-CR (for timing purposes ONLY! Heck, how about doing this today!). I know you would never betray the CR documents (When the HECK are we going to hear about them!!!) in putting out your hypothetical. I actually thought of it in terms of your "What specials would you like to be able to use from another profession" post from over a month ago. It's a great thought and if you were in charge of things at SOE, this game wouldn't be frustrating so many people.

Does this mean I was close to Revamp ideas? LOL. Don't answer that!

Thanks for the prompt read.

RIEN - Master Commando
Corbantis

RIEN - Master Commando
"We are the guys skilled with all ranged weapons. They should let us act like it"

Commando Archive

Thread: My idea on hearing just a word of having riffleman skills work with commando!