Commando Archive
Thread: NERF for us all on TC2
garvin wrote:
the question is, should our Community be for it or against it? Is speed weapon macro'ing something that is used against us in a way that we can't fight well against it (take kiting into consideration)...if not, then I say we fight against it to show support forthe otherCombat Professions...but if this delay will make us stronger, I say we support it...
I personally believe we have a duty to oppose all stupid pointless nerfs. The devs often seem to forget real in-game mechanics and make stupid half-assed decisions on many issues. To preserve our gaming experience, we need to call them on this when they try to make stupid, un-thought-out decisions.
IMHO, this is one of those times. I don't care what their meager justification for this change is, there is NOTHING that outweighs the frustration this change causes for equipping armor (I will quit before I spend 30 seconds mindlessly clicking just to equip armor...that is why everyone uses macros) and for changing weapons (even between ones of the same type) in battle. I enjoy the ability to mix and match fighting styles on the fly, and there is no reason for devs to allow people to have more than one class if they are going to keep us from using them. From the fact that the change has been implemented, I can see that the devs have NO CLUE about in game mechanics, and am insulted that I even have to be writing this (because any idiot who plays the game at all should be able to easily spot these issues).
If they want to take my enjoyment away...more power to them. They can play and develop the game for themselves, because the people like me (who pay their salaries) will move to games with dev teams that do care. All I know is that devs have been personally bending me over since the game came out, and every time I find something enjoy it is nerfed shortly thereafter.These upcoming changes are continuing to make it a simple question of what I am going to do when WOW comes out.
On the slim chance a dev. reads this, let this be a warning. Players are sick of you continually and systematically nerfing everything they enjoy about the game with stupid, half-assed nerfs that you implement without warning or real discussion. Either start communicating and listening to us, or take your SWG failure as a lesson foryour next game dev team you get assigned to.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Ok Garvin...just read the rest of the thread (probably should have in the first place) and I agree that the weapon nerf, as you described it, is not that big of a deal (although it still pisses me off because I sometimes switch weapons briefly during battle--ex: switch to LP to bleed, then switch to Flamer to finish it off).
Since I have no access to TC2, what about the armor delays? Have you confirmed that at all?
Tanks over in the BH forum is off at Fan Fest right now...apparently he is speaking with Kel (a programmer) and other folks regarding this change to get us all more details...We should probabably know more soon on if this change will ever see live or will it be altered/killed before then...
As for a direct Commando effect...Look at the speed of all of our weapons...with the exception of a good speed sliced Krayt LP, most of our weapons can't be quickly used, then swiched to another Commando or Non-Commano weapon within 3 seconds...Hit a Flame special and you've taken care of 6 seconds right there...So if you us the LP with some Pistol Specials there is a good chance you'd be using it longer then 3 seconds...then you switch to the FT for a "quick" flame special and then you can switch to any other weapon instantly (because the flame special will take 6 to 10 seconds anyway due to it's on delay)...Same with the HAR...Same with the RL...etc...
So some might say that the use the FT with no specials, switch quickly to a pistol (or other non-commando weapon) for a quick special, then try to switch quickly back to the FT...that's where this kind of thing may hurt...But I personally see that less as a NERF and more as a "time to adjust my strategy" kind of thing...hit 2 specials with your pistol instead of one...something that takes 3 seconds before you switch back...
It will defintely suck for those professions who feel they are dependent on speed weapon macros...the question is, should our Community be for it or against it? Is speed weapon macro'ing something that is used against us in a way that we can't fight well against it (take kiting into consideration)...if not, then I say we fight against it to show support forthe otherCombat Professions...but if this delay will make us stronger, I say we support it...
As always, I will not bring my own opinion to the devs...I will bring the opinion of the Community
Still waiting for a response on that...Tanks will probably find out at Fan Fest for everyone...It may also be just something the Devs are trying out with no immediately intention of bringing to live (just want to see how in impacts the Jedi)...
RazerWolf wrote:
I'm just wondering if it's been confirmed whether or not this is a bug?
Garvin, YOU might not use weapons other than the flamer but Isuspect almost everyone else does. I know I do it ALL the time as a TKM. Commando is broken for the most part. Yes, Flame is nice, but NOT perfect. I do not go toe to toe with someone/something that wants to melee while using my flamer. I torch the foe and then switch to TKM where I have some melee defenses. When fighting armed opponents I find it effective to apply a scorch and THEN thump them with my vibroknucks. The flamer is just not 'competitive' for me to use it all the time.
THAT addressed, I must say I understand this change. I don't really LIKE it, since, as I said I do a lot of switching, but then it is more realistic and I like that. Of course carrying five rifles, multiple launchers and a crate of grenades in my pack is pushing it (I carry the stuff, didn't say I use it). In the Marines I remember carrying one launcher. AT-4's get heavy after a while and I only had to carry one (in addition to 29 grenades, over 800 rounds of ammo, a LAW, NBC gear, etc.) Without my pack I was carrying over 50lb on my upper body. In the SWG universe I would have been considered positively unarmed.
I still want an assault rifle. Multi-purpose would be awesome. Sorry the Launcher Pistol just holds no appeal to me.
thiostan wrote:
Garvin, YOU might not use weapons other than the flamer but Isuspect almost everyone else does. I know I do it ALL the time as a TKM. Commando is broken for the most part. Yes, Flame is nice, but NOT perfect. I do not go toe to toe with someone/something that wants to melee while using my flamer. I torch the foe and then switch to TKM where I have some melee defenses. When fighting armed opponents I find it effective to apply a scorch and THEN thump them with my vibroknucks. The flamer is just not 'competitive' for me to use it all the time.
Again...let me clarify this...I don't USE other COMMANDO WEAPONS other then the flamer...as I said in another reply, I am a TKM as well and I do switch between VKs and my FT often...but the speed of the FT makes up of the delay set it so that it isn't noticable...the only time I would see it, as a Commando/TKA, is if I switch from my FT to my VKs to hit a quick KD, then want to switch back immediately (within 3 seconds) to hit a flame special...This could be an issue, but something that can easily be strategically gotten around...how? keep the VK's equiped for 3 seconds which would equal a 1 or 2 more hits before switching back to your FT...if you do the KD/Dizzy right with your VK the opponent should be grounded for more then 5 seconds giving you plenty of time to hit a /flamesingle...
That is why I have said this is NOT a Commando NERF...The original poster stated that this is a NERF for all professions, and while yes, it's a NERF for many professions, it's not a direct NERF to the Commando Profession specifically...
And on that note...some Commandos may see this change as a benefit...that's why we can't just jump up and fight against it because a few feel it's a NERF and ESPECIALLY because non-commandos are against it...we have to do what is best for our Community...We have to analyze if Speed Macros are being used against us and if slowing them down with help us compete better, especially in PvP...We are a very slow profession...this often leads to our defeat while relying on our Commando weapons...slowing our opponent down, even if it's just slowing down their weapon changes, may help us...
The question is...Does the good outweigh the bad? That's why I DO NOT feel we are obliged to fight against this just yet without proper discussion...anyone who feels that we should jump against this without all the facts being in and without community support is not being very open-minded (I'm sorry if that insults you)...This change is along way from Live...we have time to get the facts from the Devs and make an intelligent arguement for or against...to do otherwise is to condemn something on heresay...is that how folks would like our Community to operate...to condemn something because of what a third party mis-reports?
Daker-Naritus wrote:
garvin wrote:
the question is, should our Community be for it or against it? Is speed weapon macro'ing something that is used against us in a way that we can't fight well against it (take kiting into consideration)...if not, then I say we fight against it to show support forthe otherCombat Professions...but if this delay will make us stronger, I say we support it...
I personally believe we have a duty to oppose all stupid pointless nerfs. The devs often seem to forget real in-game mechanics and make stupid half-assed decisions on many issues. To preserve our gaming experience, we need to call them on this when they try to make stupid, un-thought-out decisions.
If someone told you that the Devs were removing the flame tree, would you go out and scream bloody murder, opposing it vocally until the Devs changed their minds and keep our Flame Tree intact?
Would it matter that maybe they were removing the flame tree because they were combining it with the Acid Tree to make room for a new Assult Rifle tree, but you just didn't have those facts yet? (this is hypothetical...no word of this actually happening...just making a point)
This is what happens when we "have a duty to oppose all stupid pointless nerfs" before we fully understand what the point of the nerf is...The facts aren't all in yet and what has been told by some has come up inaccurate...should we base our opinion on what someone says without all the facts being in...
We have a duty to fight against "stupid pointless nerfs" but on the same note, we have a duty to get the facts right...to discuss it amongst the community, and as a community decide with way to fight...If we don't come up with a rational thought out arguement for or against the devs will ignore what we say and just write it off as "ranting"...
PS...regarding the Armor delay....there is a good reason behind that...
Jedi's aren't allowed to wear armor...they can't use ANY of their force powers while they wear armor...but speed macros allow them to quick take off all armor, use a force special, then put it all back on before anyone can get a shot off...it negates the penalty of not being allowed to wear armor...
Now sure, maybe the Armor delay isn't the best way to fix this kind of thing...but it's something that is being tested out (hence, a reason why it's on a TEST SERVER)...
How do you suggest the devs fix the Jedi Armor Trick? Should Jedi's be allowed to wear armor (which would mean they have resists to your weapons, but you have NO resists to theirs)? Should they just let the speed armor macro exist to be abused? Or do you have another solution I can suggest to the devs? I'd be happy to bring it to them...
StarNick wrote:
Make it where Jedi chars are flagged that they have a longer delay (or just have a delay while every1 else doesnt) or make it where if you have a Force point pool...you cannot put on armour at all
But then you run into the problems that will arise with the Jedi Revamp...remember the lines between Jedi and other Professions will be blurred...we will see Riflemen, TKAs, Dancers, Commandos, etc with force powers...you can be a Padawan and a Commando at the same time...So should the delay be when they equip a jedi lightsaber? but not all force powers are restricted to using an LS...
Maybe one possibility is building in a delay into using force powers like we have for our flame specials...but then again, are they powerful enough to warrent that type of penalty (our specials hit harder then theirs)...if not, do add the penalty, would that mean they get a damage boost to balance?
That wouldn't work under the new system given that you slowly give up your skills as you progress up the Jedi tree. Well, I suppose it would work technically, but people trying to go up the jedi tree would be in trouble whenever they wanted to do stuff with regular skills, like go hunt for color or damage crystals.
StarNick wrote:
....or make it where if you have a Force point pool...you cannot put on armour at all
garvin wrote:
PS...regarding the Armor delay....there is a good reason behind that...
Jedi's aren't allowed to wear armor...they can't use ANY of their force powers while they wear armor...but speed macros allow them to quick take off all armor, use a force special, then put it all back on before anyone can get a shot off...it negates the penalty of not being allowed to wear armor...
Now sure, maybe the Armor delay isn't the best way to fix this kind of thing...but it's something that is being tested out (hence, a reason why it's on a TEST SERVER)...
How do you suggest the devs fix the Jedi Armor Trick? Should Jedi's be allowed to wear armor (which would mean they have resists to your weapons, but you have NO resists to theirs)? Should they just let the speed armor macro exist to be abused? Or do you have another solution I can suggest to the devs? I'd be happy to bring it to them...
Garvin, there is NO reason to makeTHIRTY-THREEclasses worth of professions take over 30 seconds to put on a set of armor, just because it is unbalancing for ONEclass (jedi) to be able to quickly equip/unequip armor. It is just plain stupid, and it is not justified.
Personally, I think it is not consistent witheverything that isStar Warsthat jedi are allowed to wear armor. Jedi wear robes, and their lightsaber is their armor. That is EXACTLY why jedi just got a huge revamp of blocking and other abilities that lets them take down AT-STs without being scratched. If you eliminate jedi armor, you eliminate the need for the nerf altogether.
However, if theyHAVE to have jedi armor, they need to give armor capabilities to Jedi Robes. Then you make it so that Jedi Robes, not all other armor,have a delay on equip/unequip. That way jedi still have armor (that is consistent with Star Wars because it is a robe), but jedi armor is the ONLY thing that actually gets nerfed, and the rest of us don't have to suffer through that 30 second penalty.