Commando Archive
Thread: Another alternative to the flame dot 'nerf'
And Lurax, try taking just1 line in pistoleer and tell me if you are even almost as proficient as a master pistoleer. That is just one weapon also. We commandos have a variety of weapons yes, but thats because we got a variety of weapon skills, it doesnt mean all skills for one weapon should be in one easy to carry basket.
Also, the FT as it is will and should still be the commandos bread and butter. I mean c'mon! Maybe situationally our other weapons should be nice but I highly doubt they are going to give us a second weapon that matches our FT in raw power.
The FT is a signature of power, and the fact that you can take just one line in commando pretty easily and master almost anything, then go around spreading the flame draws more attention to nerfing all commandos because you are IMO as strong as a commando or even almost as you put it is enough.
KnightHawk420 wrote:
I'd much rather see dot effects like flames, bleeds and such take into account armor and resists. This would put to rest the overpower'ed nature of the flamethrower. It would force us to use other weapons.
I dont mind including armor resists, thats fine. HOwever, lets fix our other weapons before being forced to use the other weapons! FlameThrower is all we really have right now.
Tacwraith, the problem is that ALL rifles get the +speed and +accuracy bonuses from the rifleman trees. Are you proposing that all heavy weapons get lumped together so that they all benefit from the same modifiers?
Depending on how it's implemented I'm not really against that idea, however if we dedicate a tree to that, then it means less weapons for us to have... what are you proposing is done to the other trees to adjust for it? But I do like this idea much better than moving specials higher up in the flamer tree. If this happens then I propose dropping the flamespecials down so that each box gets one special, and the master retains the huge +speed and +accuracy bonus it already has.
Comments pro and against are appreciated as always.
-Hypnodx
This is a commando forum not a rifleman forum. Rifleman (as with carbineer and pistoleer, and all of the melee professions branching off the brawler tree) is a profession built upon one weapon type.So naturally every tree in the profession deals with that one weapon type, and naturally ignoring a tree in the profession will cost you the bonuses provided by that tree.
Commando is NOT a one weapon type profession. You can't compare the two. We have a one tree per weapon type setup, and yes, you can get pretty good with one weapon type by only taking its respective tree. I don't see you complainingthat acid single 2 needs to be moved to master. After all, a HAR dabblercan use a HAR almost as good as a master can.
I said it before and I'll say it again. Your problem (that you feel there are too many flamethrower dabblers) is because flamethrowers are too strong in proportion to the other trees offered by commando, which is entirely unrelated to the power balance between masters and non-masters. Please stop demanding for a grenadeer nerf, your reasoning is flawed.
Flawed in what manner? Cmon tell me why.
"Commando is NOT a one weapon type profession. You can't compare the two"
Yes I can.
Grenade Damage: 6k (best ive seen on a well crafted proton). Consumable. 6 to 8 second timer. 15m range max for effective range
HAR damage: 6k (acid single2 on acid vulnerable target). 12 second delay (broken). perhaps 6 to 8 seconds if they fix it for delay. 11m effective range. 20m normal fire.
Heavy Weapons : 4k to 7k. Consumable. 6 to 8 secs delay. out to 64m range for RL
flamethrower: 7k to 12k .+dot. 5 to 7 sec delay. 16m effective range special, effective 64m normal fire.
*all these at box4 level, damage is = at master level, only speeds drop by about 1s at master*
So you see, even if soe fixes all the other weapon trees, the flamethrower still remains on TOP, by a significant amount, damage wise and utility wise than all the other weapons in our arsenal.
With rifleman/pistoleer/carbineer they have 1 weapon type, but they split their accuracy and speed in different trees. Commando gives both in ONE tree. And since the powerhouse weapon IS the flamethrower then they all take it.
Its a big issue with all the commando weapons, not just the flamer. The flamer just stands out because of its overdabbling in. Ill bring to your attention the CH dabbling issue that brought their fixing this patch.The same will happen to commando. And it will be a good thing.
ask yourself why most master ch's take flamethrower as their other weapon.. instead of, say, the LLC (they get more points left over going BH LLC) .. or the grenade tree or the heavy weapons tree or the HAR tree.
Damage is about equal on all of them. barring of course the grenades and heavy weapons being consumables (which makes them unnapealing as heck). the HAR does nice damage when it hits (but its broken now). the LLC is definetely a more versatile weapon than the flamer because of its speed being faster than most flamers while retaining about the same damage.
the DOT. Thats the one, major firepower difference. remove it from grenadeer and it becomes no better than the LLC. at least, for the dabbler. For those going master, their reward should be a powerful dot on their PRIMARY weapon.
Thats the issue.
I like the idea of moving the accuracy and speed to different lines of the tree. That wont move it to where you have to be master to get all the goodies, but by the time you get to be almost as good as a master, its only 1 more skill point and your there.
Spreading things out this way would work just like the CH changes but I figured it would roughly look like this:
Line one: Field tactics. All that it has now as far as certs but all accuracy mods go here. Respectively to what level they are in now. i.e. box 4 of flame thrower accuracy mods goes to box 4 field tactics. Some accuracy added for LP.
Line two: Heavy weapons support. Again, retains all certs but then allspeed mods go here. Respectively at the level they are in now. Add LP speed mods.
line 3: Single target. Heres where I move some specials around. Box 1, LP Blast 1: damage spread out but it gives the LP its own specials at more damage than regular pistol skills do with LP since it hits random pool. Then throw in some specials for HWs/Grenades. Box2: Flamesingle 1, acid single 1. Box 3: LP single 2, HW/Grenade special 2. Box 4: Flame single 2, Acid single 2.
Line 4: Crowd Control. See line 3, replace with the cone effect attaks.
Master commando: Bonuses we get now across the board for each weapon.
Important note: I dunno how LP specials should work but think there should definately be something in line with commandos single target and multiple target modes. I think Lord S has tred to get out of people what they want but just feel we need something.
Anyway, I think that would be in line with the CH changes, and I would welcome them since we get screamed "nerf" about as much if not more than CHs.
And yes, I feel we are like rifleman/pistoleer/carbineer/etc in having one type of weapon. Its called heavy weapons or else youd get FT xp, HAR xp, then HW xp seperate. The reason we appear to have diferent types of weapons is because we just dont get certified until elite class.
Tac, I agree with you, and then againI don't. First the part where I disagree.
The problem with your comparison of the 4 trees of commando is that the flamer is beyond a shadow of a doubt the best of all those weapons, and it shouldn't be. There should not be a "BEST" weapon for the commando line, there should be different weapons that are useful at different times. Look at the pistoleers for example. Any pistoleer walking around with just one weapon these days is gunna get spanked. Different guns for different fights.
If the commando trees were fixed so that each weapon had strengths and weaknesses comparable to the other weapons in our profession then there would be absolutely no problems with dabblers. The other 3 trees need to be fixed FIRST, then the flamethrower can be brought in line. As it is, we really only have one weapon worth using. Like I said before, just ask yourself, which weapon do you use 90% of the time? For a profession that is supposed to be a weapons specialists with different weapons at his disposal to take out different targets, which one weapon above and beyond the rest can be used for almost any foe you fight? Does that seem a little wrong to you? It's like having the ultimate combo that can't be beaten, and that is where I agree with you. Your comparison of the different weapons showed this excellently, and that is why every commando walks around with a flamethrower. There should be no uber weapon, there should be balance. The commando should be able to look at his entire arsenal and find all his weapons equally appealing; the only factor for which weapon he uses should depend on the circumstances and the target.
The problem isn't with the placement of the accuracies, speed, specials... the problem is that the other 3 trees are pathetic in comparison to the flamer tree. Once the other 3 trees are fixed, then I completely agree that the flamer should be nerfed a notch or two. Heat and armor resists should be taken into effect, DoT lowered accordingly, wounds decreased...etc. But if you nerf the flamer before fixing the other trees... then what are you left with? When it comes down to the line, the other weapons are too expensive, too slow, too inaccurate, or just too broken to be used on a regular basis.
We are a one-trick-pony. That needs to change.
-Hypnodx
the DOT is the whole cause of the problem.
SOE cant make the other weapons even comparable to the dot damage. without making them a dot of course.
If they did then the grenades would have to do around 12k damage a blast. heavy weapons like 20k a hit. acid rifle would have to get something 'equivalent' .. like medium armor piercing and high rate of fire or some crap like that.
Thats not an option SOE will even consider. No. They will NERF the flamer so bad we'll think grenades are a good thing to use all the sudden.
Thats why I want to jump in first and give them a non-nerfing solution to having everyone running around with massive dot damaging weapons. And the only way to do that is by moving the DOT to the master box.
"Tacwraith, the problem is that ALL rifles get the +speed and +accuracy bonuses from the rifleman trees. Are you proposing that all heavy weapons get lumped together so that they all benefit from the same modifiers?"
no, im saying that by taking JUST the flamer tree they get the damage, the accuracy, the speed all in one. and its practically the same as master level damage (the dot).
Rifles oth, if you take the accuracy tree only, you will be JACKED because you got yourself a 6 second delay between shots. If you take just the speed tree, you will miss a lot faster.
The real problem with the grenadeer tree is NOT the initial damage or the speed or the accuracy mods of the weapons... its the fire dot which provides the weapon with its tremendous power.
Putting the flamesingle2 attack in master box, moving flamecone1 to grenadeer3 box, and removing the dot from the flamespecial1 attacks but leaving the dot in the special2's (at master box) is what i propose.
Here's the reason: For commando UPPING the trees to be master, they do not get penalized xp-wise. for a weapon doing 4k damage will give them full xp for just 1 or 2 shots per kill. So it does not penalize novices.
It does however, give the master box a tremendous perk to have. It does not give a single tree dabbler the power of a master in the class. same argument as the CH fixes this patch..too many people taking half (in our case, 1/4th) of the skill boxes and getting the same benefit as a master title holder.
Thats wher I see moving the accuracy and speeds to seperate trees along with having the single and multi target specials in seperate trees.
That way, if you want to dable, ok but to just have the flame singles, you would be slow and inaccurate, then you cn take the acccuracy line also but you will still be slow, then you can take the speed line, and if youve gone that far then why not master.
The flame DOT wouldnt be as complained about if you had to invest a lot more skill points to be very good with it. Even without speed youd be getting outdamaged by a pistoleer easy, and why even try without the accuracy since we depend on getting that initial hit as soon as possible in order to not make it a damage per second speed fight without the DOT helping us we are fubared.
I truly believe there are a lot of people out there that wouldnt mind getting kiled by a master commando when they are master of something themselves but they complain when they are getting beat up by just one line in the commando tree.
I dunno about everyone else but it pains me to see an armorsmith thats making millions on composite armor, which I cant do, even be almost as powerful as me in combat as well.
I agree with Tac. They wont, I repeat WILL NOT make our other weapons as powerful as the FT, instead they wil nerf the FT unless we can talk them into making it only as usefull as it is now at master level. The other weapons we got will strictly be situational i.e. long range/diferent damage type.
To the "dablers" I want to say that I am not looking to shun you from the game or commando weapons, but I feel if we dont try to come up with a compromise, the FT will be nerfed beyond use for even masters and dabling in it will be pointless anyway. They have not forgotten why they gave us the 2.5 * damage mod I assure you, and no one is going to let them forget either. Just watch some of these boards as all these people scream nerf about it.
the thing is techno, that even with novice commando accuracy and speed mods the flamer is still an effective weapon... because it only needs one hit to apply the dot.
spreading the speed and accuracy to other trees will just penalize the novice commandos going for master. i still believe the dot should be moved exclusively to master box. those upping the tree without the dot still get the full heavy weapons xp from a single hit of the flamer (due to its damage) and those not going for master will receive no better benefit than if they were taking an LLC or an Acid Rifle .. they would choose the damage type that would be about it.
You're still confusing the issues. You talk about flamethrowers being too strong in proportion to the other commando weapons, to the point whereeven if the other weapons are 'fixed', it will still be the best,and then youtry to use it as justification for making the flamethrower weaker for non-masters, but unchanged for master.
The flamethrower is too strong, other commando weapons are too weak. THAT is the problem, and the solution to fix it is, in my opinion, fairly obvious. Nerfing a skill tree by moving all its power to master level only makes things worse, since the weapon imbalance still exists, but now you've made it entirely unappealing to try playing commando without completely mastering it. Are you trying to help or hinder your profession?
I have mastered marksman, and unarm4, and spent a total of 111 skill points to get my grenadeer title. Why is it you feel that I don't deserve a decent DOT for this investment?