Commando Archive
Thread: Another alternative to the flame dot 'nerf'
Unfortunately, any solution where something is taken away or moved anywhere will upset dabblers...and they do have a right to be upset...it's like giving someone a new Porche, letting them drive it for a week...they telling them, "opps, we meant to give you this older not so shinny car...you wouldn't mind giving that Porche back would you?"...The dabblers dabbled their skill pts based on the idea of what they would get...and now we are proposing altering that...To us, it would be like the Dev's coming in and saying "opps...we meant for the BH's to have the Flame Throwers...not Commandos...you don't mind if we move it do you..." We'd fight it tooth and nail and so will dabblers fight any changes we try to make to the Flame Tree...that's the reason there will never be consensus on this issue...
Master Commandos and Dabblers will never see eye to eye on this...and it's prefectly logicial for us not too...deep down we want what's in our own best interest over what's in the best interest for the bigger picture...For Master Commando that encompases our whole profession...for Dabblers, their whole world of commando encompases that one tree...we'd fight to keep our Profession whole, so dabblers are just in fighting to keep their world whole as well.
This is why, more and more everyday, it seems to me the best solution for everyone is
1) Make the game work the way it is meant to work...make resistences work properly...this will help other's deal with the Fire Damage
2) Give a boost to Master Commando to make it more inviting...Up the damage Master Commando's can do with the FT...I'm not talking a stronger DOT...just power...this will compensate for the resistences (under 100%) working and keep us at our norm...Sure we would do more to those without resistences to flame, but we'd do less to those with...
3) Once resistences work properly, just like +'s out there for Melee and other skill mods, add a bio-engineered way to add Flame Resistences to clothing...like +10 or something like that...I already have several Armor Attachments with +2 to +5 Flame Resistences, so those are already out there...
These 3 things will accomplish the following...Dabblers would not be NERF'd....Masters would maintain their norm for the most part and be significantly above those who just train one tree...and those who cry NERF on the FT would be told to shut up and use strategy to combat us (in the form of water and resistences)...
Not the best solution, I know, but something in raw form that I think can be build on in a way that would cause the least amount of complaints from all...
And of course, I DO NOT SUPPORT any changes to our FT or the Flame tree UNTIL we start seeing enhancements to our other trees and weapons...None of this would make any sense if we don't have other aids to fall back on...
EXACTLY the point I have been trying to make...give this man a medal!
garvin wrote:
This is why, more and more everyday, it seems to me the best solution for everyone is
1) Make the game work the way it is meant to work...make resistences work properly...this will help other's deal with the Fire Damage
2) Give a boost to Master Commando to make it more inviting...Up the damage Master Commando's can do with the FT...I'm not talking a stronger DOT...just power...this will compensate for the resistences (under 100%) working and keep us at our norm...Sure we would do more to those without resistences to flame, but we'd do less to those with...
3) Once resistences work properly, just like +'s out there for Melee and other skill mods, add a bio-engineered way to add Flame Resistences to clothing...like +10 or something like that...I already have several Armor Attachments with +2 to +5 Flame Resistences, so those are already out there...
These 3 things will accomplish the following...Dabblers would not be NERF'd....Masters would maintain their norm for the most part and be significantly above those who just train one tree...and those who cry NERF on the FT would be told to shut up and use strategy to combat us (in the form of water and resistences)...
im always open to alternatives.
Yet what I see is that IF the other weapon trees are all INCREASED in firepower.. then guess what class becomes incredibly overpowered? You can easily imagine people screaming that a commando can fire a heavy weapon, do serious damage, throw a grenade or 2 and do just as serious damage and THEN close in and torch/acid douse said target with even more massive damage. In essence, having more effective firepower than an entire group of elites. Think about it, we are nearly matched in damage with other elite classes with just ONE SHORT ranged weapon. To increase the damage on long range and medium range commando armaments only results in an extremely overpowered class.
Each weapon should have its niche in our arsenal, and the flamethrower will always be the heaviest damage dealer because of the dot.
If it was up to me id say put the flamespecial2's in master, remove the dot fromflamespecial1's, make the acid rifle be+20 +10 +0 accuracy and 4.0 spd with its current acid attack, nodot specials, ap2 weapon so it becomesan acid RIFLE, make grenades be very accurate out to 25mso they are our mid-range AOE weapons and have effectson them (c12-c22 stun, cryoban blind, glop 5 second warcry, imperial dizzy,thermalhave a fire dot 20% as effective as flamer, proton=KD), heavy weapons all be AP3 and have the same accuracy as the rocket launcher, with special 'aim' commands so we can tell it to hit mind/health/action ham bars and fix their AOE of course ,have the launcher pistol have a masterbox attack thatgives it 100% accuracy with no extra damage on it, launcher pistol have an aoe attack with no extra damage to it at novice, have the BEAMRIFLE added to novice and change it to STUN damage (and blue or violet laser colored bolts would be nice) and have +10 to rifle/carbine/pistol accuracy added at novice and +20 added at master box, else webecome pathetic ranged fighters withjust master marksman accuracy, with +30 total at master we become half as accurate as elite ranged proffs.
EXACTLY the point I have been trying to make...give this man a medal!
ACK...Daker agree's with me...I must have done something wrong...no no no....lol
just kidding...
"Getting lots of weapons does not give us "more effective firepower than an entire group of elites" because we are still limited by time and delay. We may get lots of firepower, but we are still limited to how fast we can use it."
in the speed yes I agree with you. but remember RANGE. You cant throw a grenade to 64m. but you can fire a rocket. You can fire flamespecials/harspecials at 35m, but you can throw a grenade. You will likely kill yourself or miss with a HW at 16m, but you can torch/douse with acid.
and I said EFFECTIVE firepower as a whole group of elites. as in you can do heavy damage at long range, at mid range and close range, all AOE. pistoleers arent supposed to be good at long range (although we know they are *grumble*) , riflemen cant hit jack at close range but excel at long range.
By making all weapons be of equivalent damage in the commando trees they make us heavy hitter in all ranges. However, at CLOSE range the flamer dot is twice as powerful as the others.
"I will also add that no one is saying "raise the power of all trees to the current power of the flame thrower"...everyone is saying "lower the power of the flamer a little and then make all other trees as powerful as the nerfed flamer." The net result is that no matter what weapon we use, we will be doing less damage than now. However, we will not then be faced with the necessity that the flamer be overpowered to compensate for the fact that some mobs (and almost all players) have high flame resists (because we can just use another weapon)
I think thats what SOE will end up doing. Lowering the flamer power... as a whole. which screws masters, screws dabblers. And all because this 'overpowering' damage comes from the DOT itself and its unbalancing because theres hundreds of grenadeer dabblers out there taking advantage of it.
all im trying to get here is for the masters to not be penalized out of the firepower they SHOULD have at their disposal because as of NOW, single-tree monkeys have the same firepower. Make no mistake, the flamer WILL be nerfed in the combat review. I just dont want it to be completely nerfed across the board because of data gathered from the great majority of 'commandos' who only hold 1 tree in the proffession.
IMO, the FT is our raw power weapon meaning does a lot of damage in 16m.
What Im talking about for the other weapons is while yes, the HAR is supposed to have specials just like the FT, with everyone complaining about the FT there is no way they are going to fix it to work as it appears it should and have another weapon that people are going to complain about.
What I'm trying to say is if they do improvements to our other weapons, it will be to make them more situational. Meaning they wont be at the damage and DOT of the FT but rather become more long range tactical fighting.
I in no way want the FT nerfed, but see it happening, particularily in the DOT wtih all the complaining that is out there now.
I, like Tac said, think that they may nerf the crap out of the FT to get it to match the other weapons instead of fixing the other weapons to fall in line with the FT. That is not what I want, thats just what I fear will happen if we dont offer an alternative.
Like garvin said, if I was a dabler, I wouldnt want someone to take the FT away from me but also as master commando that I am I dont want it taken away from me as it is now. It is my most signifigant weapon. I know, I know. Fix the other weapons and that wont be as true, blah blah blah. Again, I point to where I said they wont make the other weapons as good as the FT to have more crying going on.
I guess in short my main point is, no matter what they do to other weapons, they might be equivelant to the FT but not like the FT is now, but like whatever they wind up doing to the FT. I'm just thinking of offering a way to keep it the way it is.
Any ideas on how to do this and keep the dablers and masters both happy? I'd love to hear it but I feel the biggest complaint out there is about how many people are using the FT and all those people are using it cause its overpowered. Maybe my answer for it is wrong btuu I think make it cost more skills to use effectively to justify the power of it in others eyes.
tacwraith wrote:
Yet what I see is that IF the other weapon trees are all INCREASED in firepower.. then guess what class becomes incredibly overpowered? You can easily imagine people screaming that a commando can fire a heavy weapon, do serious damage, throw a grenade or 2 and do just as serious damage and THEN close in and torch/acid douse said target with even more massive damage. In essence, having more effective firepower than an entire group of elites. Think about it, we are nearly matched in damage with other elite classes with just ONE SHORT ranged weapon. To increase the damage on long range and medium range commando armaments only results in an extremely overpowered class.
And if we could fire them all at the same time, you would have a valid point... Alas, you don't.
Lets assume that grenades, the HAR, and all other commando weapons are increased in firepower to the level of the flamethrower... Please note that all commando specials currently have to be fired around or below the 16m mark.
Typical combat scenerio now:
Flame, 10 second delay, flame, 10 second delay, flame, 10 second delay...etc. (NOTE: yes the dot is running the whole time)
Typical combat scenerio after the fixes you discuss:
HAR special, 10 second delay, HAR special, 10 second delay, HAR special, 10 second delay...
-OR-
Grenade, 5-6 second delay, Grenade, 5-6 second delay, Grenade, 5-6 second delay...
-OR-
Flame, 10 second delay, HAR special, 10 second delay, Grenade, 5-6 second delay
(NOTE: If you post arguing that your delay is less than 10 seconds I am going to hit you over the head with a bat...the delay on the HAR and Flamer specials is about the same, so just subsitiute whatever number for 10 you want)
There is no difference between before and after the proposed fixes, only the diversity of weapons with which we do our damage. Getting lots of weapons does not give us "more effective firepower than an entire group of elites" because we are still limited by time and delay. We may get lots of firepower, but we are still limited to how fast we can use it.
I will also add that no one is saying "raise the power of all trees to the current power of the flame thrower"...everyone is saying "lower the power of the flamer a little and then make all other trees as powerful as the nerfed flamer." The net result is that no matter what weapon we use, we will be doing less damage than now. However, we will not then be faced with the necessity that the flamer be overpowered to compensate for the fact that some mobs (and almost all players) have high flame resists (because we can just use another weapon).
"think that they may nerf the crap out of the FT to get it to match the other weapons instead of fixing the other weapons to fall in line with the FT. That is not what I want, thats just what I fear will happen if we dont offer an alternative."
yeah this terrifies the heck outta me. SOE has a very nasty track record of this. *sigh* EQ...
"if I was a dabler, I wouldnt want someone to take the FT away from me but also as master commando that I am I dont want it taken away from me as it is now"
thats the thing. what i suggest does not take the FT away, but the dot is put into master. dabblers still get the AOE damage and single target damage capability. but no dot. Dot would be master box.It would just be a HEAT damage version of the LLC and HAR (when fixed).
Imagine this.
SOE fixes grenades so they do have AOE effects and can be thrown accurately out to 35m. (aka, +30 @0m, +20 @35m, -110 @40m) and their blast radius increased to 15m...
SOE fixes HAR speed and accuracy mods. Hopefully making it accurate out to 40m (+20 @ 0m, +10 @50m , -20 @64m)
SOE fixes heavy weapons so they are all AP3 and have same accuracy as RL and their AOE radius works for a change. hopefully also giving us the ability to choose which ham bar to aim for with the heavy weps.
Flamethrower has dot moved to master box (box1=flamesingle1, box2=flamecone1,box3=flamesingle2 NO DOT, box4=flamecone2 NO DOT, master=flamesingle3 (its single2+dot) & flamecone3 (its cone2+dot).
SOE makes the heavy weapons and grenades MUCH easier to manufacture. Right now their damage is ok as it is, the problem is they are not viable weapons to use regularly because of their high expense. You dont see a rifleman buying his T21 every 30 shots do you?)