Commando Archive
Thread: Another alternative to the flame dot 'nerf'
I stand by what I said. Even if soe magically fixed all our weapon's bugs, the commando will still have its flamethrower as its primary, heaviest, damage dealing weapon. And as it is now, box4 give anyone access to the special2 dot. That they dont get cone2 is irrelevant, cone1 also has a dang strong dot on it.. plus most 'Master Grenadeers' have the rest of their points free to persue other ranged proffession's specials...getting the massive damage of the master commando without the penalty of being vulnerable to another class (ranged or melee)
I know I come out a lot as confrontational with people on this (*waves at Daker*), but you gotta think on the WHY flame4 is dabbled in so much.
In this weaponsmith's case, why did he choose commando? unarmed4 and master marksman is a HUGE point sink.. points which couldve gotten him master (insert elite ranged proffession). Theres only 2 explanations: He wanted to be commando... or he just wanted the massive damage.
If he wanted to then great for him. Still, the vast majority choose it because of the massive damage via dot. Just in the *same* manner the vast majority of non-master CH's dabbled in just half the CH tree set: to get the capability to use the highest, best, ability of that class (before patch it was tanking grauls/rancors). What happened to CH's? They got their pet level spread about so only masters can truly use the highest pets in the game. They didnt get nerfed in that respect (creature level) , they got FIXED.
And all because everyone and their peg-legged inbred grandm'aunt was running around with dabble-acquired grauls. Just like now they call nerf because theres too many people waving around the overactive zippo lighters.
This situation is so similar its just scary. Before patch lowly dabbling in just 2 skill trees gave ch dabbler the Graul and Rancor. ONE of them, but that one pet could tank like a mofo, and it gave dabbler CH's a heck of a lot of points to spend in weaponry rather than CH trees. They practically had all the power of a master CH in tanking without being masters. They could only have 1 graul/rancor out, but that was all that was needed to achieve the same effect as the master could.
And its the same with commando. Dabbling in just ONE skill tree gives the dabbler the flamespecial1's and flamesingle2 damage and dots. Unlike CH dabblers, who could only have 1 pet, the commando flamethrower dabbler DOES have access to the 2nd tier of flamer damage (flamesingle2) AND to the AOE attacks of cone1+its dot. In the end, the grenadeer achieves the same effect in combat as a master commando achieves: heavily dotted single target or heavily dotted multiple targets. And stacking the dots is irrelevant to bring to the discussion since nearly every single creature in this game, barring the krayt and kimo -like supercreatures, will die or be very close to death from just using a flamespecial attack.. any in the grenadeer tree.
This will come and bite us down the road. The CH changes now (creature level dabbling) were brought to attention because of the over-use and abuse. Everyone complained about it. But it wasnt until many CH's, MASTER CH's, began to raise their voices did something get done, for you didnt see the horde ofdabblers opening their mouths to correct the abusive dabbling.
Now that the pets are largely gone, the next runner up is the big, noticable, huge damage of the flamethrower in everyone's hands. SOE will address this issue. And Id rather it be a FIX than one of their track-record underhanded NERFS.
By the way...for the record I DO think Master Commandos need an additional benefit over grenadeers. I just that benefit shouldn't involve the dot.
I think the best solution is to make the Master Commando faster and more accurate. This lets them hit with the dot more reliably, stack dots faster, and deal more actual, non-dotdamage.
Imagine a grenadeer who loses +20 accuracy and +10 speed and has it moved to Master Commando...Yes they still get the flame single 2 dot, but they have a whole lot more trouble getting it to hit, and have to suffer a longer delay between attacks (in addition, as stated above, to having to use the low dot/damage attacks for their next shot instead of another flame 2 attack like master can).
heh. the effect is the same daker. just like ch dabblers hadthe same tanking ability than MCH's. Saying that you cant stack the dots is like a master ch saying the pre-patch dabblers didnt have the power of the MCH because they could only have 1 graul, not 3. When the fact was, it didnt matter if you had 1 or 3, the dabbler and the master tanked equally well. Just like us now.
ill pick up the weaponsmith's case again. he wants to be commando or wants the damage. either way, he can have both with just 1 tree. I cant go and up just 1 tree in weaponsmith and do stuff anywhere close to what a master weaponsmith can do.
I used to be weaponsmith 0/4/0/4 to make my own hpbc's.. it really pissed me off that i didnt have the points to go master to make my own rocket launchers, which was the thing I needed the most for my metal chicken hunting addiction. But I couldnt. I was able to make hpbc's which were a good 500 pnts of damage under what a master could do, using his tools and his same materials. I couldnt have both so I dropped weaponsmith and took up master commando. Yet, any dabbler can pick up flame4 and have the firepower that I have as master. its irrelevant that they cant AOE2, they can aoe1 and single2 and virtually *any* target in the game except kimo and krayt will drop dead before those 2 timers are up.
Yachew wrote:
Also in pvp you cant ever stack dots cause we die so fast
This is not necessarily true anymore...
A master commando gets 80% ranged mitigation and can kite melee professions. With good armor, and the loss of the 2.5x penalty we had up until this week, pvp is lasting MUCH longer (and may I say YEAH!...time to strategize)
yachew: im not saying to NERF the dot. im saying to REMOVE the dot of the special1'sor lower the flamespecial1 dramatically and move the special2's (special2's dots remain as they are now) to master box.
daker: we agree on differences between grenadeer and master. good. the problem is, accuracy or speed is irrelevant on weapons with large frontload damage.you cant make the flamer faster or it will truly be extremely overpowered by people putting 8k damage and dots on a targetevery 2 or 3 seconds (matter of fact some flamers do this, krayts with speed slices).you could make them more accurate, but then, the only way to do that without making the flamer be 100% accurate at master is to remove the accuracy in all but one grenadeer box.. leaving those commandos that are trying to become masters with a weapon that misses even worse than it does for our novices now.
and it'd be silly to make the flamers degrade faster when not in master's hands... flamers are cheap. ham cost is tied to a weapon, and even then, for the flamer timer the ham cost is again, irrelevant.
increasing the timer is another way that could work.. but then we penalize the novices even more horribly.
removing the dot from special1's and putting single2 at master, on the other hand, lets the flamer STILL put in those 4 to 5k damage at special1 (which is all you need to get the 2k to 3.5k xp per kill) letting novices skill up with no accuracy or speed horrornerf.
it wont nerf those going to master, for they can xp just as they do now. They still have access to the high damage, aoe capable shot... but no dot. Think of it as being the 'first certification' flamethrower type, with 2nd version certification being the cone1 attack.. and the third, master certification is those 2 attacks with increased damage and a dot. now THATS a reward for being MASTER and not giving master damage to dabblers.
tacwraith wrote:
metal chicken hunting addiction
LOL!!!!
Metal chicken
Guys, what I really think is the issue here that you are ALL FAILING TO REALIZIE is that any profession dabbler should not be able to gain near the power of the full profession by only mastering 1/2 or less of that profession.
Now let us take our profession into consideration: the COMMANDO.
What powers (hypothetically speaking) does the commando have? Well his expertise with numerous heavy weapons. These weapons include: various grenades, HAR, rocket launcher, launcher pistol, flamer, and HBPC.
Now, as it currently stands we have the following 4 trees.
The flamethrower line is self evident, however it is, bar none, the bread and butter of the commando line. I would even say that it can be reasonably argued that 90% of the benefits ofthe commando profession is from the flamethrower. Just think which weapon you use about 90% of the time.
Field tactics is devoted to the the gaining of certs in different grenades. And I think we can all agree that grenades are marginally useful, and for the most part, if we lost them entirely at this point in time, nobody would be crying that hard. I'd probably apportion about 4% of the usefulness of being a commando to this tree due to the fact that grenades are expensive, limited in range, hit different resists, often incap the user, and have marginally working AOE.
Heavy weapons is devoted to the rocket launcher and HBPC. Both of which also have marginal use for very specific occasions. Now this tree would be useful for the high range and high damage weapons, however, these weapons are extremely costly and have marginal accuracy, thus this line is probably only use about 6% of the time
As for the HAR, I don't think I need to say much here. 0% usefulness.
So as it stands, in order to basically gain almost the full usefulness of the entire profession without going master, one need only master the flamethrower tree. This leads the dev with 2 choices to balance things out:
1. Move more of the flamer's power to the master skill box in order to force people to master the other 3 trees so that flamer becomes useful.
2. Make the other trees useful so that the flamethrower does not 90% of the usefulness of the profession.
Now, as it is we have garvin and tacwraith arguing for choice 1 and daker arguing for choice 2.
Personally I prefer choice 2. Just think, would you rather look at the commando line and say, hey, I should go get the other 3 trees because they are cool and useful? Or would you rather look at the commando line and say, hey I should get the other 3 trees because that is the only way the flamethrower tree will be useful? The only reason Iwould argue for ANY nerf of the flamethrower line is because it is overpowered for what it is supposed to be. At the current time, I don't think it is overpowere at all. Just read the threads about us not being pvp gods and about how much damage per second we can deal in comparison to other professions. Forget about the DoT for a second... the fact is, our profession does comparible damage per second to other professions. The only thing is that our damage is less spread out than that of others... they look at the commando, see that he did 1000+ damage in one shot and then look at their 500 damage in one shot and think we are too powerful. The thing not being considered is that we don't get to pull of 1 shot every second like they do.
OK, now let us reconsider this DoT again... when I drop a flamesingle2 on somebody I am utterly screwed for the next 8 or more seconds... whereas any other profession that can drop a DoT can start performing actions (including more attacks) the next second... Once again, the damage per second evens out (again, read the other threads in which maddogs and ivoni eloquently tested and proved this). Actually, I was being generous, we are in fact out-damaged by the other professions.
So, I would say, don't decrease the DoT because it works fine as is. Don't change the damage of the flamer, it is fine as is. Don't movethe flamethrower requirements up higher to make that line less powerful, but make the other trees more powerful so that instead of being the one-trick-pony we become more of a jack-of-all-trades. This would make the other skill tree lines more attractive and make the flamer dabbler less powerful in comparison to a master commando. And yes, a person who master 4/5 boxes (if you includemaster as a box in every tree)in the flamethrower line should be almost as powerful as somebody who mastered 5/5 boxes in the flamethrower line. For that 5th box you get flamecone2, speed, and accuracy bonuses. That is a definate plus, and worth it for a master commando. What are NOT worth it, are the wasted other 3 trees. And that is what needs to be fixed.
Phew... that was long. Sorry about typing all that, but I feel it needed to be said.
Oh, and one last little thing... after saying all that about not nerfing the flamer.... there is one thing I would like nerfed, and that is the wounds caused by the flame DoTs. They are not that useful and cause more grief than good. I can't see any reason why they shouldn't be cut in1/2 or 1/4 and still serve nearly the same purpose.
-Hypnodx
p.s. Please feel free to dispute any and everything I said, as I am open to friendly and constructive discussion on this matter.
I know, but I still say Flame Cone 2 is a huge advantage over a grenadeer.
Yes flame cone 1 is a good AOE attack, but it's dot isn't as good as #2, and more importantly:
You cannot AOE stack flame cone 1 with anything. A Master Commando can AOE stack flame 1 and flame 2, and then follow up stacking flame single 1 and 2 on anything that isn't dead yet.
Also, a Master commando has 2 level 2 dots to stack, whereas a grenadeer is limited to one level 2 and one level 1.
Having a extra dot to stack that is more powerful than any of the rest, in addition to being able to AOE stack, is HUGE.
I know Tac will probably throw fruit at that comment, but I am already covered so bring it on... 
The only thing I find ridiculous is the power of the dot : big damage on special move AND big dot AND wounds. All in one special move. I find that overpowered.
We can't leave this class as it.
Why should I have to take up 3 trees I don't want, to become proficient withone weapon that has only one tree giving bonuses to its use?
I shouldn't.
The real you masters are offended at me being able to use a flamethrower almost (and only 'almost') as good as you is because your profession is inherantly broken and the flamethrower is all you've got. You should be asking to get your other 3 trees fixed so that flamethrower is only a part of what makes you strong. THAT is your problem, NOT that flamethrowers 4 lets people use a flamethrower well.
Let's just give Commando's water guns!!!
Thraxx 
of Bria
Novice CH ( 3 2 2 2 )
Novice Commando ( 0 0 4 0 ) - "need a light?"
Hey Tac, I think of it this way now that Im master commando and myself trying to dabble a little here, and a little there, and I know you've seen the problem with picking up just one line in another profession. For rifleman, which Im thinking Im going to take a part of for flurry shot and another part for defenses since they are right there, I now decided that I am also going to have to take a 3rd skill line in sniping just because I decided I need the extra accuracy as I have found it is needed when fighting some of the higher level NPCs and more than likely wil also play a big part in PvP.
My point is this. Maybe, instead of taking the flame specials away from the grenadeer, how bout we ask that the accuracy of all HWs (that includes FT) into the field tactics line, and all the speed of the HWs in the heavy support weapons line? Then it would seem more like the other professions where you may get some of the specials from taking one line, but have to go elsewhere to get the accuracy and speed that we already suggest getting up to flame 3 befor using the FT. Along with that maybe make all HWs on the same accuracy scale meaning increased HW speed means increased for all HWs including FT, Acid Rifle, Launch Pistol. That might help fix our other weapons.