Commando Archive
Thread: Every age has its wars, and every war has its legends.
bikebum
Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:04 am
#27
I have to agree with not wanting any more alpha professions. I fully understand what you want to accomplish, however I don't believe the implementation would result in anything close to what you expect. Over the course of a couple months, everyone would figure out the "best" alpha class and the Jedi of today would grind the next "uber" class. Nothing would change.
Fortunately I play to have fun and not be uber, so I can stomach playing a commando / TKM and not worry about the fact it is not the "best" combo. I would be very frustrated with the game if I were an avid PvPer though.
Phenix1050
Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:37 am
#28
Therfore, the emphasis needs to be much more on content, rather than abilities.
This is exactly my sentiments. we don't need to add power, we need to add uniqeness and fun storylines to the "story" professions. Those are professions that aren't just cookie-cutter names. I mean, no offense to Rifleman or fencers, but there aren't "stories" that would make someone a rifleman. In real life, practicing enough on a firing range would teach you most of what can be learned in the rifleman profession. it's mostly about shooting, in other words. But commandos, rangers, squad leaders, bounty hunters, smugglers, and perhaps TKAs are all professions that have been mentioned in cannon or EU sources and have stories surrounding them. These classes should have extra content that is fun, but doesn't overpowerthem.
In my opinion, this content should be able to be ground to. No matter how much XP you make it, the grinders will get there eventually, while the people who play commandos and love it, but don't play that much will be out of luck. Not that much fun. For these professions a time limit should be enacted. If you survive 6 months with the "story" profession of your choice, you get access to the content. It's about being dedicated to you profession, not about grinding mindlessly through all profs. So no "super commando" idea would work in my mind because people will just grind through any class that has extra content if it's based on XP.
Based on time, those people who love commando, like yourselves, or those people who stick with Ranger no matter what (like me!) would be rewarded for their vigilance, regardless of how much mindless grinding they've done (or not done).
Phenix1050
Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:14 am
#29
TK-863 wrote:
Hmmm... so maybe just long and extended themeparks woud be a better idea? Something for the storied proffessions can benifit from? That way it would not be disimiler to say Jaba's thempark that gives out schematics for feitherweight FWG5 pistols, my alt has a goraxed one, and it is very nice. I think the main thing is to bring back SWG to everyone, not just jedi.
yes, very much so. The main draw of SW:G for me was the ability to play different people in the Star Wars universe. Not everyone was a Jedi and while they are inarguably cool, there are so many other stories that involve non-jedi. Let's not forget,little Luke Skywalker would've been toast WAY before he fought the Emperor if not for asmuggler. In the EU, there are stories of people from all walks of life being heros. That's the draw here for a lot of people playing this game.Being unique and outstanding within the game shouldn'tcome down to being Jedi. It should come down to a choice. Yes, Jedi will still be more powerful. But thatshouldn't mean they are theonly profession with unique content.
Give me immersion for other professions. Give me a theme parkacross the different planets where people get unique rewards/badges or profession titles. How cool woud it be to do a themepark for commando and end up as a "SpecOps Commando" rather than just "Master"? How cool would it be to have a Ranger do a quest and end up withthe title of "Mountain Man" (for male characters of course). Littlethings add upto so much when they are unique and belong only to someone dedicated to your profession.
Ternque01
Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:37 am
#30
Remember the little people. Remember the non-Jedi.
/rollseyes
Phenix1050
Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:32 pm
#32
Tyreal18 wrote:
Wow....didn't think that so many peeps would be angry at me putting in a stealth line, but it does have bearing. Many people view Commando differently: some think it is mass chaos, others belive it is special forces. Heck, some might just think of a commando as a dude with an explosive-tipped crossbow. Point is, The stuff I added in was just as an example of types of bonuses the tree could give. +20 terrain neg. wouldn't be too much, about a 45% reduction in terrain penalties. Plus, the camo could be tweaked as so a Commando could not do anything while in stealth....instead of flaming try giving other options, because then others can a.) see your point of view correctly, and b.) continue a discussion due to adding in new ideas. Cpl, I think we need to start a new thread talking about this theory, because some people aren't getting what you are saying I think....
it's not about "how you view" commando.Many people see Rangers in the "army ranger" sort of view-- does that mean we should have access toheavyweaponry and artillery the way that real Rangers do?No.This is an MMORPG. one of the key ideas is that you have to chose skills. You can't be all things. The unique part about SW:G is that it isn't class-based (one time choice), it's profession-based, meaning you make your own character, chosing to either specialize or diversify your templates. What that means is that no single profession can be all things at all times. In the CU terms, nobody can be at all points on the chart- you have to choose nuking, mezzing or defensive styles, but you can't do all three effectively.
That applies to mods like terrain negotiation and stealthtoo. IThey'reprofession-specific skills that scouts and Rangers have the most claim to. If you want those skills, you have to take up those professions. True, CMs getTN mods too, but that's still something a lot of people (including some in the CM community) think was a bad desicion. Let me put it to you this way- if I as a Master Ranger, suggested that a master ranger prestige class should unlock the ability to weild the plasma flamethrower and all heavy weaponry, would you object? Of course you would, as that is something that belongs to your profession.
Stealth is rightfully a ranger skill. We are the wilderness and camoflage experts, we spend 140 skillpoints to be the best camoflaged people out there. and yet YOU want stealth. Look at your pre-reqs. Look at your skill build. Where, in either of those, do the ideas of stealth/invisibility come into play? How does using heavy weapons teach you to make yourself invisible? There is no logical connection between Commando's (in SWG) and stealth. Similarly, there is no scout in your profession, why on earth should you get Terrain Negotiation?
You want other options? Here's a good one: focus on skills that are already in your template and work on making them better, rather than asking for skills that have NOTHING to do with your profession. Perhaps more powerful versions of the novice weapons. Advanced Launcher pistol certs. a themepark for commando's where destruction on a large scale is emphasized? I'm not trying to flame, but every now and then when I weild the common sense bat,people come off feeling a little hurt.
CPL specifically asked me to come into this thread as we worked together in the Alpha forum. I was asked specifically by CPL to look at these ideas from a Ranger viewpoint. So believe me, Tyreal, I get what's going on here. As I've said, the basic theory behind these ideas is great-- but there are some things that justwouldn't work for the game as a whole, in my opinion. Ideas such as yours, that steal skills from other profession are actually more likely to hinder the progression of good ideas than help them. If a skill you ask for enhances your profession by watering down others, it is that much less likely to be implemented.Giving stealth and TN to commandos is bad for the game, and if that is included as a part of a proposal to the devs, I can guarantee that Rangers in droves will shoot the idea down and the entire proposal will get lost.
So step back, take a deep breath and realize that I'm trying to help get this idea of the ground. The idea of a new alpha class, I don't like so much. The idea of new content and stories for professions like commando, along with unique rewards that benefit people who are dedicated to their profession is a great and wonderful idea. It's universally appealing. If commando's ask for skills that are reasonable and good for the game, the idea is strong and other professions can point to this idea as an example of the way things should be. It's when bad ideas like commandos getting stealth start getting tacked onto it that the idea becomes weakened. Push for what's realistic and good for the game, and I'll rally the support of Rangers and SLs. Try to get skills that don't belong in your profession and the opposite will happen.
I have always respected CPL, and I assure you that my criticism here in no way changes that. I can see the amount of passion you guys have for your profession, and as another gimped class (Ranger) I understand it completely. CPL, I believe, asked me for my opinion because I am someone who likes to look at the whole game and not just my own desires. Thus, I'd be able to objectively give my opinion on whether this was good for the game as a whole. That is all that I have strived to do. I will continue to try and make sure an idea like this- which contains at its' center a very great concept for the game as a whole- doesn't get lost. But I will also try to ensure that ideas which hurt the game, are pushed aside as quickly as possible.
Phenix1050
Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:33 pm
#33
*double posted*
you probably didn't want to read thatlong-arse posttwice, right?
Message Edited by Phenix1050 on 06-13-2005 09:34 PM
bikebum
Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:07 pm
#34
Phenix1050 wrote:
You want other options? Here's a good one: focus on skills that are already in your template and work on making them better, rather than asking for skills that have NOTHING to do with your profession. Perhaps more powerful versions of the novice weapons. Advanced Launcher pistol certs. a themepark for commando's where destruction on a large scale is emphasized? I'm not trying to flame, but every now and then when I weild the common sense bat,people come off feeling a little hurt.
I think every combat profession's master box could do with some improvements on the novice weapons. It would be nice to have the ability at master to wield a "featherweight launcher pistol" or similar...
Tyreal18
Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:48 am
#35
Wow....didn't think that so many peeps would be angry at me putting in a stealth line, but it does have bearing. Many people view Commando differently: some think it is mass chaos, others belive it is special forces. Heck, some might just think of a commando as a dude with an explosive-tipped crossbow . Point is, The stuff I added in was just as an example of types of bonuses the tree could give. +20 terrain neg. wouldn't be too much, about a 45% reduction in terrain penalties. Plus, the camo could be tweaked as so a Commando could not do anything while in stealth....instead of flaming try giving other options, because then others can a.) see your point of view correctly, and b.) continue a discussion due to adding in new ideas. Cpl, I think we need to start a new thread talking about this theory, because some people aren't getting what you are saying I think....
. Point is, The stuff I added in was just as an example of types of bonuses the tree could give. +20 terrain neg. wouldn't be too much, about a 45% reduction in terrain penalties. Plus, the camo could be tweaked as so a Commando could not do anything while in stealth....instead of flaming try giving other options, because then others can a.) see your point of view correctly, and b.) continue a discussion due to adding in new ideas. Cpl, I think we need to start a new thread talking about this theory, because some people aren't getting what you are saying I think....
JohnAdams
Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:13 am
#36
Many good points. I think this is similar to a post started by the pistoleer corr. He asked for thoughts about an "end game". I'd prefer to think of it as an advanced game, but that may be semantics. The point made about alpha classes is very well put. Initially I would have agreed with the OP, but you have turned my thinking on this. Unfortunately, if you look through other forums, this is exactly what players are looking for. Ways to "compete' with Jedi. I doubt they are going to be nerfed. But to me that's irrelevant to this. Let's focus on COmmando.
First off, a disclaimer. My main is a WS. My alt was a Commando. When I read about the new specs for Commando after the CU, I was stoked that I could do Smuggler and Commando. But as I was levelling up the Smuggler tree, I realized I was doing better with pistols than I was with the PFT (sad state of affairs indeed). With great reluctance, I respeced to MBH on the last last chance. So I have no dog in this fight. But this is something I came up with.
I think that what most Commandos would like to do is...well...be Commandos. But there is little opportunity to do that. So why not come up with Commando missions? We already have BH terms and Smugglers will (eventually) get their version of missions. I suspect there are many ways this could work. But this is my basic outline.
Whether missions come from terms or NPC's doesn't really matter. And no matter what you do, it will end up being some type of destroy or deliver (escort) type mission. No matter how you dress it up, it will boil down to that. There would be 3 basic types of missions: Infiltrate, Sabotage and Eradicate. They would be some type of faction missions. If you aren't Imperial or Rebel, you would be working for the Black Sun or one of the Hutts. Because of the crucial nature of these missions, you may be asked to kill some of your own faction. You would be given special clearance to do so at no cost of your own faction. This would be a way to prove your loyalty to those you were trying to infiltrate.
Infiltrate would be a solo only mission. You would be given a waypoint to some type of camp/base and a contact name. You'd be given different jobs to do by your contact. They could be as mundane as fixing some broken equipment. Or it could be to go out with a team to destroy a rival base. You would be required to show up for "duty" a set number of times over a period of time. Let's say 3 times over the course of a week with at least 24 hours between assignments. Eventually, you'd come across some bit of information you were asked to find. Report this back to the mission giver for the reward. Low risk, low reward rating.
Sabotage missions could be solo or group depending on mission level. You are given a target you are to disable by any means necessary. Whether it's a turret at a base or a comm link at a camp. Some missions would be purely assault and destroy. Others might be similar to Infiltrate missions except you have to disable some equipment rather than get information. These missions would be medium risk, medium reward.
Eradicate would be the highest level mission. These would be group only missions and would require that 2-4 members were Commandos. Pretty straightforward, you are given a target you have to totally destroy. Time is of the essence so the mission is on a timer from the moment you accept it (be ready to roll). You will be required to kill all people at the base and blow it up. The longer it takes to eliminate the garrison, the more of a chance they can call for backup. Ther will be certain things you can do to lessen the chance (i.e. blow up comm links first), but if you take too long, expect a second wave. This would be a high risk, high reward mission.
The kicker? Failed missions give you visibility on BH terms. Before people squawk about forced PvP, hear me out. Faile Smuggler missions will result in vis. And with Jedi already on the terms, you'll probably be third choice. But it makes perfect sense to me that if you are identified as a saboteur of an Imperial base, someone will be looking you up. Chances are you wouldn't show up if you failed an eradicate mission (low risK). Fail an Eradicate mission and you can bet on it.
These missions could take place on computer generated sites (like current missions) or you could be assigned a player dropped factional base. This would scale with the mission level. But it would be a good way to cull old, unfunded and unused bases. Rewards would be monetary - from regular mission payouts on the low end to upwards of 1-2 million credits on the high end. There would also be faction point rewards. And if you want to work toward profession rewards (maybe a +10 ranged defense), you could acquire these with prestige points awarded for successful missions. To keep from overly rewarding grinders, you could limit the amount of prestige points awarded per week.
I know a lot of this will sound similar to a lot we already do. But I think the game does have limits in what can be done with it. Anyway, it accomplishes several things. It provides new content for the profession. It includes members from other professions in it. And it gives you a chance to feel like a real Commando.
My only request is that Jedi be excluded from participating in any of it. Just my personal bias.
Phenix1050
Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:34 am
#37
I think the issue at heart is "what do commandos DO that is different than other combat classes?" The same can be said about Ranger, so I understand where you guys are coming from. Commando should be SO much more than simply a profession of weapon certs. There needs to be a role for them, something that makes people go "we need one of these guys if we're gonna take this base". In my opinion, that should be true of most if not all the "story" professions. In my opinion, regular professions like riflemen give you skills-- professions like commando, ranger, SL, BH, smuggler, etc. should give you a role to play.
Commando's are meant to be high-damage soldiers whose weapons penetrate armor and suppress the enemy. Certain weapons, such as the high-explosive ones, should be used mainly to break armored materials, and I'll explain what I mean by that in a minute. Others could be used to suppress an enemy. In my head, Squad Leaders should be able to set up fortifications during battle, which would have a limited lifespan but would not only cut them off via LoS (line of sight) but would also provide large accuracy and defensive bonuses. I would also love to see some fortifications that had mounted weapons, but we'll return to that concept in a minute.
Now giving fortifications to SLs would help commando's as they'd have a high-priority target. regular weapons would be ineffective against such an armored target, but grenades could be used to get the people behind the fortification (only grenades would bypass the Los) and then rockets used to destroy the fortification itself. Other targets that would be armored materials would be stuff like turrets at bases, communication towers (destroying them would prevent respawn outside of base). Like fortifications, these things should almost always be hit when a rocket is fired, since they're immobile.
The third thing I'd add as armored targets would be vehicles with weapons on them. Essentially, the way this would work is that characters are placed into the vehicle and the weapon on the vehicle is equipped as their weapon (no certs). You could even haveseveral turrets-- the people in them simply choose a target and fire.Some specials would work, most wouldn't. But these vehicles would be armored, and as such would be difficult for a squad to face. However, a Commando would make short work of these guys because the damage of rocket launchers would increase against armored targets. Similar to the vehicle idea, it would be possible to add turrets where players "enter" the turret and they assume control of it by picking targets, as the turret becomes their equipped weapon. Commandos could destroy those as well.
This has nothing to do with what's being discussed here-- even if everything I just wrote was implemented, there would need to be more stories/missions for the commando. But this would start to give commando's a great role in combat, as they'd always be needed, just in case the other side had fortifications or vehicles.
of course, that's my view from being a Ranger, I have no idea if it's the direction you guys would like.
bikebum
Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:56 am
#38
That is an interesting idea Pheonix. I just am not sure how popular it would be. We hardly see much PvP as it is now other than Jedi's running around trying to gank other Jedi (or unsuspecting normal toons) and duels at Dantooine.
Tyreal18
Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:20 pm
#39
Phenix1050 wrote:
I think the issue at heart is "what do commandos DO that is different than other combat classes?" The same can be said about Ranger, so I understand where you guys are coming from. Commando should be SO much more than simply a profession of weapon certs. There needs to be a role for them, something that makes people go "we need one of these guys if we're gonna take this base". In my opinion, that should be true of most if not all the "story" professions. In my opinion, regular professions like riflemen give you skills-- professions like commando, ranger, SL, BH, smuggler, etc. should give you a role to play.
Commando's are meant to be high-damage soldiers whose weapons penetrate armor and suppress the enemy. Certain weapons, such as the high-explosive ones, should be used mainly to break armored materials, and I'll explain what I mean by that in a minute. Others could be used to suppress an enemy. In my head, Squad Leaders should be able to set up fortifications during battle, which would have a limited lifespan but would not only cut them off via LoS (line of sight) but would also provide large accuracy and defensive bonuses. I would also love to see some fortifications that had mounted weapons, but we'll return to that concept in a minute.
Now giving fortifications to SLs would help commando's as they'd have a high-priority target. regular weapons would be ineffective against such an armored target, but grenades could be used to get the people behind the fortification (only grenades would bypass the Los) and then rockets used to destroy the fortification itself. Other targets that would be armored materials would be stuff like turrets at bases, communication towers (destroying them would prevent respawn outside of base). Like fortifications, these things should almost always be hit when a rocket is fired, since they're immobile.
The third thing I'd add as armored targets would be vehicles with weapons on them. Essentially, the way this would work is that characters are placed into the vehicle and the weapon on the vehicle is equipped as their weapon (no certs). You could even haveseveral turrets-- the people in them simply choose a target and fire.Some specials would work, most wouldn't. But these vehicles would be armored, and as such would be difficult for a squad to face. However, a Commando would make short work of these guys because the damage of rocket launchers would increase against armored targets. Similar to the vehicle idea, it would be possible to add turrets where players "enter" the turret and they assume control of it by picking targets, as the turret becomes their equipped weapon. Commandos could destroy those as well.
This has nothing to do with what's being discussed here-- even if everything I just wrote was implemented, there would need to be more stories/missions for the commando. But this would start to give commando's a great role in combat, as they'd always be needed, just in case the other side had fortifications or vehicles.
of course, that's my view from being a Ranger, I have no idea if it's the direction you guys would like.
I'm sure many agree with you on that point, but keep in mind that if we become massive damage dealers, then riflemen are out of a job, because then all they are good for are suprise attacks, and why not just grab a camo kit eh? Also, crowd suppression is given to carbineers, and they are also rather broken at this specialty alone. The only way that commandos could be useful is if they implemented blast dmg and gave RLs that did good dmg to us, then we'd be useful......but wait, all vehicles are down in a few shots, and AT-STs suck! Also, we would be back to a one-trick pony....like we are now (somewhat).
Grenades by-passing LoS could be really bad if the coding done so far was used for it.....i.e. throwing grenades through walls. And before ya say anything, just remember the DWB and our flamers...../shudder. SLs are not going to get a fortification anytime soon. It would a.) get rid of any hope rangers had of getting a mobile fortress, and b.) take up too much time designing that could be used for what SOE considers content....which is bound to be borked to high-heaven. Plus, grenades getting fixed soon is laughable.
While much more of a possibility now with the advent of multi vehicles, it is still going to be a long way coming before we see any good combat vehicle. Why? Because then the devs would need to implement countermeasures (more mines, better RLs.....that stuff) or else SWG would become Jedi vs. MechWarrior.
ALSO: With my stealth line, you have to admit that your only concern was the camo, b/c the other stats were laughable. Plus, what line would you put in place of it? I'd rather you say "how about this...." than flat out "commandos don't deserve it, it would ruin class distinction." FYI: no class really has distinction nowadays since the almighty devs decided to put in specials for everyone.