Commando Archive
Thread: Can we lose the fighting pre-req?
Jazzminn
Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:56 am
#27
Just because bounty hunter is getting a boost with the skill points doesn't mean that now everyone can run upto the development team and ask for the same skill point boost. I understand that some of you want to master other interesting professions, but you can't have it your way all the time. I can just as well ask for removal of the ranged support requirement of the combat medic because I have no interest in getting marksman and I want to be master swordsman/master combat medic. It just doesn't work like that at all.
It would be nice, yes, to have less skill point requirement. I don't deny that. However, what's more important for us is to get our weapons, our specials, the bugs, and all the other broken things fixed first to improve our profession at its core. Whatever bounty hunters got is their issue. In fact, that change can only benefit us because it gives us more option to dabble into the bounty hunter tree. We have our own issues that we must deal with, and it shouldn't be a new "drop our skill point requirement" bandwagon.
Let's bring to the discussion table the more important things: HAR issue, the weapon switch delay issue, grenade issues, consumable weapons issue, accuracy issue, and all these other things that label our profession as broken except for the flame thrower.
Rachtor
Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:11 am
#28
I understand your point Gavin, but personally I don't want to do Melee combat. I'd like to have large weapons that blow things up. I don't really feel like punching someone at all. If someone gets close I'd rather have a pistol.
If it comes down to us getting some sort of Melee tree or something, personally I'll probably drop commando and go BH/Pistoleer or something where I don't need to get close.
Rachtor
Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:19 am
#29
Oh,
And for the record, this is not a
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, Why do the BH people get all the attention and commandos don't. I want what they get! Love me Lucas Arts! Or at least beat me like a step-child you hate! I just need ATTENTION!!! WAAAAAHHHHHH
They did what they did for Bounty-Hunters because this latest publish involves the Jedi Revamp. Bounty Hunters hunt Jedi. So everything that has to DO with Jedi gets more attention! 
Thank you, that is all.
Towim
Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:49 am
#30
With all the talk of new weapons and removal of the demolitionist tree etc. I've been thinking of different ways they could work commando that would make sense.
Something along the lines I was thinking was mentioned further up this thread.
Since we have unarmed we should have some melee ability, but most don't want to be a TKA just by virtue of being a commado and with the weapon switch delay I'm liking the idea of melee attacks with our weapons (sort of like pistol melee defense)
Many of these ideas were mentioned elsewhere I'm just sort of compiling everything with my own little flair
one line be something like Close QuartersDefense, and have some melee defense mods and weapon equipped melee specials most likely a knock down and maybe a stun or short duration root type effect, not in any way to make us compare to the tank profs but enough that we don't drop the instant someone gets close to us and lets up back off to open it up to ranged combat again or give us time to switch out a weapon.
the next line would be something like Close Quarters Combat giving pistol mods maybe some ranged defenses mitigation? and some pistol specials making some real use out of the launcher pistol
then an assault line bringing in the assault carbine idea. Give us a commando specific assault carbine that works off carbine mods, the line would have carbine mods of course and some commado specific specials to go with it
Then take our heavy weapons and put them in a single line, give heavy weapons, and grenade accuracy and speed in small doses in it and the FT and HAR specials and the certs for the grenades and disposables here.
at master you get some really good heavy weapons and grenade accuracy and speed mods and maybe a carbine and pistol special along with the FT/HAR cone 2 specials
this would make us true commando's masters of the battlefield and the heavy weapons, but with the majority of the heavy weapons mods in the master box dabblers wouldn't get all those goodies at top efficiency for just one line but they could still get them if they choose while the master commado will be the true heavy weapons masters.
only thing missing from our pre-reqs is the rifle but that seems to be going into the sniper role and atleast to me doesn't fit in with commando. And, of course, the grenades and the heavy weapons would need to be tuned to be functional.
for the FT I think the best course would be to restore it's dot and leave it as a support weapon (something for the heavy damage but not something you want to use all the time due to the delays and the extra melee dmg you take using it) and as for the HAR I believe all it really needs AP2 and with that the damage would end up being quite nice maybe with a toned down dot on it so as not to over power it with the AP2 and heavy DOT.
this would make the commado useful in and of it self, leaving those extra points available to be use for something seperate (like medic or scout) or to suppliment either the pistol or carbine if you want more speed specials or accuracy with them or to even pick up some more defenses from something like TKA if that is more your route.
I didn't figure any specific numbers or anything and I'm sure I missed alot of important points but this setup would seem to cover most of our problems and wishes I've seen here on the forums.
Just toss the idea around I'd like feedback.
-Towim Hode - Lowca
-Lofate -TC
Rachtor
Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:52 am
#31
Ok
The "close combat melee with your weapon" is a butt-stock hit. Yeah I think THAT would be ok. But it's hardly worth 4 blocks ofbrawler. To waste the initial investment skill points to open up unnarmed, then have to get 4 more blocks I better be able to do more then that. I better get some melee damage mitigation, at least 1 or 2 and some extra evade points as well. Or something along that nature, just a butt-stock hit is nowhere near enough. And I don't in anyway want to have to switch weapons, ever.
DOT with flamethrower is good, I think the HAR should have DOT too (cause it's acid maybe?) cause right now I basically feel like I'm Egon from Ghostbusters 2 with those slime shooters making everything feel "happy".
I'm not cool with a carbine weapon though. The Flamethrower should be the Carbine in things, Acid Rifle should be the...well Rifle, and Launcher Pistol is the well you get the theme.
Hell I'd rather have medic as a pre-req and say we all get minimal healing abilities, not the ability to craft but to at least use field medical supplies.
Some guy posted that it should be engineering 1 and then we can make our own explosives, even THAT made more sense then Unnarmed!!
BravenIrish
Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:55 pm
#32
Rachtor,
I totally understand your point about wanting to use a pistol up close. That's your preferance and nothing's wrong with that at all. Hear me out on this though...
We move up the rifle tree. We SHOULD have skills and weapons that represent this. We DO have the option and skill points to Master Rifleman if we choose.
We move up the carbine tree. We SHOULD have skills and weapons that represent this. We DO have the option and skill points to Master Carbineer if we choose.
We move up the pistol tree. We SHOULD have skills and weapons that represent this. We DO have the option and skill points to Master Pistoleer if we choose.
We move up the unarmed tree. We SHOULD have skills that represent this. We DO have the option and skill points to Master Teras Kasi if we choose.
We should be effective Long range...rifles. Medium range...carbines. Short range...pistols. AND NO RANGE...unarmed. By removing the unarmed pre-req, we will be hadicapped vs any type of mele attack...by design. By removing unarmed, we will be forced to ALWAYS use a ranged attack and take the ranged vs mele penalty in mele situations. Is this what we want? Effectively...the removal of the unarmed pre-req will not only stunt any type of potential growth and improvements to our chosen profession, but also draw us farther away from a vestitile combatant that Commandos desire and deserve.
Get it?
Towim
Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:48 pm
#33
Sorry I wasn't very clear on my idea about the the melee ranged combat.
I completely agree we need more than just a pistol whip just like pistolmelee defense (although I believe we should get something just like that with the exception that we can use it with any commado useable weapon, not just pistols)
another idea I thought of for it was something along the lines of a heel-kick, sort of where you stomp on thier foot with your heel giving them an temporary root effect, maybe 3-5 seconds?
and possibly something with a hefty damage and a stun effect in there too? Like I said that whole post wasn't fleshed out I was just putting it up to get feed back on where my holes were.
And I also agree that as a "Full Spectrum Warrior" (to steal that games name =P ) we would need some melee mitigation on top of the standard melee defense mod in that line. And I'm agreed on no switching of weapons all of these should be useable with whatever weapon you have equipped. We're not TKA's we don't need to be dropping our weapon and spinning around kicking people in thier jaw.
Making the flamer into a carbine weapon makes little sense to me really, it's wierd enough it can shoot flaming exploding balls 64 meters as it is, I really can't see it firing full auto shots and such. It's a heavy weapon and it should be a high damage weapon with some drawback (close range for specials and extra melee damage up close)
What alot of people seem to like the idea of is a all around mid range weapon capable of some decent speed and accuracy and unless they completely re vamp all the carbines in the game they certainly fit the bill. See the numerous threads about assualt weapons for info about that.
One thing I really don't see the devs giving us skills in melee, close (pistol), mid-range (carbine), and long range (rifles) with heavy weapons thrown on top. So we have to take a short comming somewhere and, personally I feel that long range combat is deffinately the place of the rifleman.
Even though I believe we should have enough mods in all these lines to be capable in all but extreme long range combat I don't believe we should get so many mods that we're as good as a master TKA pistoleer or carbineer. having the same or extremely close to the mods they get would leave their only advantage as a few extra specials.
Thats one reason my ideas for the melee line speicals all lean toward letting us pull back to make it a ranged fight again, so as not to have commado's rushing up to TKA's or swordsman and having a brawl, thats not our thing.
the one place where should excel is the heavy weapons and thats the reason I suggested the accuracy and speed mods for them not be too great in the tree but most placed in the master box. That leaves dabblers the option to use these weapons but at a lower skill level than a master commado.
-Towim Hode -Lowca
-Lofate - TC
Towim
Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:49 pm
#34
On a side note, why on earth do we get a pistol with no pistol tree, and the bounty hunters get a carbine line but no BH specific carbine?
Towim
Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:00 pm
#35
I have to agree there Garvin,
The only problem I see is that they would give us unarmed attacks (being as we have the unarmed pre req) and leave the nasty weapons delay in.
Thats should thing we should be sure to mention we want to avoid with any melee attacks we get we should make sure we stipulate that it works more like the pistol whip and doesn't require weapon switching.
-Towim Hode -Lowca
-Lofate - TC
Jazzminn
Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:26 pm
#36
Rachtor,
Like I said before, it is plain silly trying to jump into the bandwagon of nerfing the skill point pre requisites just because the BHs got theirs. I understand that you do not want to switch weapons, but in reality, you still do have to deal with switching weapons even if you only stuck with the commando heavy weapons. Flamethrower isn't the only weapon we have in our arsenal, assuming that the other weapons become more usable with the combat balance.
Bounty hunters' skill point reduction in pre requisites can be easily understood. 217 skill points to master or 160 skill points just to reach novice is too excessive in a game like SWG where dabbling and variety of profession template choices are encouraged. It is even more difficult to balance a profession requiring 160 skill points just to get to novice level. If you make it too overpowering, players will not be happy. If the profession isn't upto par with the massive skill point requirement, the players will not be happy either, as it was the case for many previous months in the BH community.
In our case however, we still have enough room to master another profession or dabble ina few other professions. Instead of trying to go the route of nerfing the pre requisites, we should concentrate in fixing our profession as it stands.
Refer to my previous post. You can't have it the way you want all the time. Nerfing the pre requisites is merely a quick band aid fix that will more than likely become an attempt to solve our problems the easy way out without much consideration.
As a side note, if you are a player that do not want to switch weapons, then commando isn't the profession for you. At the broken current state, you can very well argue that all you need equipped is a flamethrower. However, if our profession starts functioning as it was intended with all our specials and weaponry well worth the investment to use, then commando isn't going to be a one-weapon profession. It will offer usage of multiple weapons, which means that you will do weapon switching more often than you would like to. We will have to consider the latter situation because we have to feel optimistic about the changes soon to be brought to us via combat balance.
Instead of trying to remove the pre requisite, I would suggest that we push for skill mods and bonuses that can derive from the unarmed fighting. Perhaps more toughness, more defense, more defense acuity, or more combat equilibrium (which the TKAs receive as they progress towards master). It doesn't necessarily have to be an unarmed specials in the form of an attack move. Just something little extra to make the unarmed requirement justifiable and well worth the investment.
Let's focus on the 18 boxes under the commando tree as it is. Let's work on the issues and bring on new ideas to implement within these 18 boxes. Let's not try to jump on the bandwagon to reduce pre requisites. Like I said before, just because you want to master both swordsman and combat medic, you can't simply ask for the removal of ranged support requirement of the combat medic. Combat medics don't shoot guns, so they can say the same thing you are saying. It just doesn't work like that.
garvin
Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:35 pm
#37
Towim wrote:
I have to agree there Garvin,
The only problem I see is that they would give us unarmed attacks (being as we have the unarmed pre req) and leave the nasty weapons delay in.
Thats should thing we should be sure to mention we want to avoid with any melee attacks we get we should make sure we stipulate that it works more like the pistol whip and doesn't require weapon switching.
-Towim Hode -Lowca
-Lofate - TC
There has been some push that if we can't get the Weapon Delay removed, many of us would like to, at the very least, see Same Profession Weapons with no delay...For example, if you go from the FT to an LP, they would be no delay, but if you from the LP to an LLC there would be a delay...That way those professions who do have more then one weapon type within their trees would be on the some-what same footing as those professions with just one weapon type (swordsmen, riflemen, pistoleers, etc)...It's not the best solution, but it would at least be something...
Personally, I'm still hoping to see the Weapon Delay removed...
Hellshot
Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:41 pm
#38
As a follow up to this, would using a flamethrower then switching to a laser carbine (to say finish off an opponent if the initial hit damages the action pool) be covered under the situation you proposed above (since it is part of our pre-reqs), or would it be subject to the 5s penalty?
garvin wrote:
There has been some push that if we can't get the Weapon Delay removed, many of us would like to, at the very least, see Same Profession Weapons with no delay...For example, if you go from the FT to an LP, they would be no delay, but if you from the LP to an LLC there would be a delay...That way those professions who do have more then one weapon type within their trees would be on the some-what same footing as those professions with just one weapon type (swordsmen, riflemen, pistoleers, etc)...It's not the best solution, but it would at least be something...
Rachtor
Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:11 pm
#39
Alright well in order to keep the current weapons and make us a "Full Spectrum Warrior" I'd do this.
Melee = Flame thrower. The Flamethower should be a short range 15 or less meter weapon. It's attacks should either be directed or an AOE fashion. It should not shoot flying balls of fire. Plus it needs a flame dot. We also need the "Flame While Moving" so we can not lose a lot of accuracy while moving.
Medium Range = HAR. Since the HAR is just like Acid that is pressurized then released from the nozzle it should be considered a medium ranged weapon. It should only have single target attacks. If we give this a spray too it starts becoming more like the flamethrower. This would be like our carbine.
I think Acid should also have the chance toDOT imo and not be blanketed by doctors. I Dunno if this is too much power but then we would truly have a unique reason to be on the battlefield.
Long Range = Napalm Launcher. This'll be like the Flame Thrower now but it should work more like a rocket launcher. Long Range Heat + Blast damage. This should be like a rifle with an AOE explosion and long reload times.
Then we'd have a perfectly unique warrior capable of handling single units or damaging groups at close range, Nailing People at Medium Range, and Blowing things up at Long Range.
See? Then we have our melee attacks without having Knockdowns and stuff. I think Knockdowns belong with Melee classes. Sure pistoleer has it but do we need it too? I mean how many professions NEED knockdown? They're our other ways of doing it. I'd be happy with a concussion grenade that would have an AOE knockdown effect, but if used at too close of a range could potentially knock you over as well. But not some pistol whip thing.
If you had a flamethrower that contained highly flamable pressuired gas and liquid,or a rocket launcher, or a gun containing pressurized acid would you want to go around smacking people with it? NO! You smack someone too hard and the gun could go BOOM and take you with it!