Commando Archive

Thread: Underslung Carbine Image Link

RankorCity
Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:15 am
#27


OK, I understand your point with making specials in the Master Marksman (and below) trees more effective. However, they should not rival ANY special that is available in class specific, higher level trees in damage modifiers/multipliers, accuracy, or speed...


And there is your problem....


Lets say the Underslung Carbine comes to fruition....

Commandos rejoice....


BUT to make the Underslung Carbine (UC for short) competitive in the Commandos hands, while using Master Marksman / below specials, you would have to make the damage/speed/accuracy stats on the UC so high, that in the hands of a Carbineer it would be WAY overpowered, should that Carbineer decide to go Commando for the UC Certification...


See where I am going with this?



Edit:Not to sound too much like an ass, but I would have thought the CU/RB would have been ALOT futher along than this....Besides, asking now for input/support on a new weapon when there are so few of us that post here anymore.....


Message Edited by RankorCity on 12-13-2004 02:17 PM



Anxiously awaiting the Firefly MMO
Discuss it at www.firefly-mmo.com
garvin
Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:24 am
#28






RankorCity wrote:

OK, I understand your point with making specials in the Master Marksman (and below) trees more effective. However, they should not rival ANY special that is available in class specific, higher level trees in damage modifiers/multipliers, accuracy, or speed...


And there is your problem....


Lets say the Underslung Carbine comes to fruition....

Commandos rejoice....


BUT to make the Underslung Carbine (UC for short) competitive in the Commandos hands, while using Master Marksman / below specials, you would have to make the damage/speed/accuracy stats on the UC so high, that in the hands of a Carbineer it would be WAY overpowered, should that Carbineer decide to go Commando for the UC Certification...


See where I am going with this?





Trust me...I totally understand what you are saying here...and I seem to recall seeing that same argument used elsewhere by a very wise Commando...but I digress...


It would be a very delicate path to make the Marksman specials useable with "Heavy" weapons...Make the Marksman specials to powerful and any elite profession with that tree still ends up better with those specials then Commandos...and if you make the "Heavy" weapons to powerful, you risk them being way to "uber" to use with any elite level special (going with the understanding that elite specials should be better then lower level specials)...But what if the Devs could make Heavy Weapons work "differently" with Marksman specials then other weapons...what if Commandos got some type of "boost" that would increase the usefulness of the Marksman specials, but didn't get that "boost" with elite level specials (just the typical levels we should have)...In otherwords, what if Marksman specials worked best on Commando weapons then any other elite level profession's weapons? Carbineers could get the Underslung Carbine if they wanted, and use them with the Marksman specials (just like us, they'd have earned them) BUT, they wouldn't get the "boost" when using the Underslung Carbine with their own specials...


I know that sounds confusing and of course a lot more thought would need to go into this to make it work...But I believe that our Marksman Pre-Req has a ton of potential...Making Marksman work better for us will also inturn make it work better for Bounty Hunters (which is a good thing)...The key may just be as simple as really pumping up the Master Marksman box or figuring out how to make this "boost" thing work...




Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie

Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith

ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

Cpl_Fisher
Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:33 am
#29

The underslung carbine is not a Carbine, its a LMG.....

Anyway, I see your point about the cross proff balling, for instance, a 0/0/2/2 pistoleer Bh pistols is speed capped right now....



Member of the Rock alliance.
CO of DD 214
Member of EC-p8r militia
"Have faith in God, but believe in antimatter"
Bounty Hunters kill for credits, Commando's kill for the hell of it!
RankorCity
Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:33 am
#30

Why does it have to be so complex??


Why not use the KISS method? Keep It Simple, Stupid?


I dont want these guys to program a checksum if a Commando is using the US versus a Carbineer, then try and balance it out accordingly.


If bonuses to the weapon (general ranged weapon / speed) bonuses are put into the Commando trees, then it needs to be spread from tree to tree (NOT in one tree) and at the higher tiers to avoid dabblers.



Anxiously awaiting the Firefly MMO
Discuss it at www.firefly-mmo.com
Cpl_Fisher
Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:39 am
#31






RankorCity wrote:

Why does it have to be so complex??


Why not use the KISS method? Keep It Simple, Stupid?


I dont want these guys to program a checksum if a Commando is using the US versus a Carbineer, then try and balance it out accordingly.


If bonuses to the weapon (general ranged weapon / speed) bonuses are put into the Commando trees, then it needs to be spread from tree to tree (NOT in one tree) and at the higher tiers to avoid dabblers.






Spread pistol/rifle/carbine mods out over tier 3 boxes for instance that would work beutifuly.



Member of the Rock alliance.
CO of DD 214
Member of EC-p8r militia
"Have faith in God, but believe in antimatter"
Bounty Hunters kill for credits, Commando's kill for the hell of it!
nbd9k
Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:58 am
#32






garvin wrote:





Novock wrote:

LOL I know you can't actually say anything definite but can you answer whether you are you talking about in the CU or after the CU? (Jedi)





To be completely honest, I don't know...It was something mentioned at the Summit and spoken of only a couple of times since then...it's never been verfied if it was pre-CU, from the CU, or post-CU that it was going to happen, but it was verified that it is GOING to happen...


The Devs haven't revealed all cards yet regarding Jedi...and when it happens even the Jedi will say "hey, that's actually pretty cool"...The SWG purists will say "about time"...The BH's will say "run and hide, you will be found"...


It might even make some peoplebelieve the Devs kinda know what they are doing in regards to Jedi...


All I know is I intend to be there when this change gets added to the game on Day 1 of it's addition...







Honestly, the quickest thing you would see to fix jedi would be to reactivate permadeath. instantly, they would stop running around major cities with their tag up, and go find a little hut to live in way out in the middle of nowhere. if they had to travel, they would be very quiet and unasuming about it, on the fear they might be attacked, and this kind of attitude is what any surviving jedi are supposed to have, given the current timeframe.

Message Edited by nbd9k on 12-14-2004 07:00 AM

JohboBocal
Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:06 am
#33

The advantage of using general specials vs. profession specials I have to actually see in practice. I think it could be argued either way. Atm, we are used to our flame specials, so anything different would need some getting used to, then we could see what the pros and cons are. Its kind of hard to speculate, especially when you don't have all the info (so I hope we get it soon, even just to get the conversation going).


To be honest though, without actually testing it and seeing it in action, even the idea of not using flame specials seems a bit odd.


Not saying it would suck. It might even be awesome, but from where most of us are standing, its just hard to grasp.





Jobo & Jobi

Vendor located at -2483 -5643
Mos Nova, Tatooine
JohboBocal
Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:09 am
#34








nbd9k wrote:


Honestly, the quickest thing you would see to fix jedi would be to reactivate permadeath.





I am not even FS, and do not have much desire to go that path, but although reactivating permadeath might completely change the current Jedi situation, it seems a bit excessive to implement this. I think it would take the fun factor out for them. (At the same time, it might add to the fun factor for everyone else.)





Jobo & Jobi

Vendor located at -2483 -5643
Mos Nova, Tatooine
LuciusScipio
Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:46 am
#35






JohboBocal wrote:








nbd9k wrote:


Honestly, the quickest thing you would see to fix jedi would be to reactivate permadeath.






I am not even FS, and do not have much desire to go that path, but although reactivating permadeath might completely change the current Jedi situation, it seems a bit excessive to implement this. I think it would take the fun factor out for them. (At the same time, it might add to the fun factor for everyone else.)





I don't like jedi's either and I agree that there are too many running around with their overpowered uberness...but they (jedi's) have to put in alot of grinding to get there. permadeath would be a bit too harsh. something (i don't know what) else needs to be implemented to control the jedi population. yea, i agree. permadeath would take out some of the fun factor for them. something else needs to be done me thinks.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atilius Crydell

Rebel Colonel & Master Commando (Starsider)
Ryubushi
Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:05 am
#36






LuciusScipio wrote:





JohboBocal wrote:








nbd9k wrote:


Honestly, the quickest thing you would see to fix jedi would be to reactivate permadeath.






I am not even FS, and do not have much desire to go that path, but although reactivating permadeath might completely change the current Jedi situation, it seems a bit excessive to implement this. I think it would take the fun factor out for them. (At the same time, it might add to the fun factor for everyone else.)





I don't like jedi's either and I agree that there are too many running around with their overpowered uberness...but they (jedi's) have to put in alot of grinding to get there. permadeath would be a bit too harsh. something (i don't know what) else needs to be implemented to control the jedi population. yea, i agree. permadeath would take out some of the fun factor for them. something else needs to be done me thinks.






Hardcap the Jedi population where they're at now. No new Jedi can be created until we advance to a point in the SW timeline where it's appropriate to have 6,000 Jedi running around.


Then, institute a rotation system of sorts. Out of all the Jedi on a server, only3 or so are allowed to play their Jedi character per week. The other Jedi characters are locked down until it's their turn on the rotation. This will limit the number of Jedi we see running around trying to "pwn" everyone and enhance the SW feel somewhat.







***Valcyn - Lt. Colonel Ryubushi [ONE] of the Empire (the Tank Maniac); Career Master Commando, Master Carbineer, and extremely Anti-NGE.
***Eclipse - Ryushidosha, freelancer; Scaley Master Carbineer, ranger, merc for hire, and general sociopath...that despises the NGE.
***StarSider - Ja'ahn Woo [PYRO] of the Alliance - The Galaxy's first Jawa commando/carbineer...who also hates the NGE.

People like me...because I force them to...with violence!

LuciusScipio
Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:12 am
#37






Ryubushi wrote:


Hardcap the Jedi population where they're at now. No new Jedi can be created until we advance to a point in the SW timeline where it's appropriate to have 6,000 Jedi running around.


Then, institute a rotation system of sorts. Out of all the Jedi on a server, only3 or so are allowed to play their Jedi character per week. The other Jedi characters are locked down until it's their turn on the rotation. This will limit the number of Jedi we see running around trying to "pwn" everyone and enhance the SW feel somewhat.








yea, i like the idea of a hard cap moreso than permadeath. I also like other ideas that have been floated around about implementing a system where jedi's are REALLY hunted down. Right now, there is nothing in-game that can hurt them much...individually...so, I suppose that combining a hunt down system ofmore attractive PvP bounties for them, and having massive spawns of stormtroopers, AT-ST's, AT-AT's, etc. that pop up when they go overt in large cities might be a start. They need to be hunted down!

Message Edited by LuciusScipio on 12-14-2004 12:12 PM



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atilius Crydell

Rebel Colonel & Master Commando (Starsider)
Novock
Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:44 am
#38

I doubt they will hardcap and especially doubt permadeath will be brought back. Keep in mind the reason why Jedi revamps were placed before the revamp for everyone else the rebalance-revamp-upgrade is that Jedi on the box sells the game. Jedi is the biggest calling card for the game and it makes and breaks subscriptions. I personally believe they need to offer other true alternatives to Jedi another words more true 250 pt elite elite proffessions or a way for a normal combat proffessions to advance beyond their skill points.


Simply put in a MMO everyone (or almost everyone) wants to be the most powerful player in the game thats not a commando thats not a swordsmen thats a ranked Jedi Sentinel and above. You combine that with the mjority of the community already wanting to be Jedi and that what we will continue to see is more and more Jedi.


I expressed my thoughts on countering it some other posts on Corbantis a long time ago. What would happen if they introduced some other elite proffessions such as Rebel Marine and Imperial Dark Trooper? Now follow me and this is just an example for thought. But what if these required you to be a master Commando as a prereq.The youliterally went and signed up for the elite forces of either the imperials or rebels. You would then train in specialized abilities picking and choosing much like the Jedi you want be able to learn all of the specialized training. You would beslightly morepowerful then a standrad player spending 250 pnts in combat and be slightly less powerful thensay a Jedi Sentinel. You would be somewhere in the range of Jedi Knight in power.The training and the grinding would be long anddifficult justvery similiar to teh jedi. but now you have some more choices and a way to make a much more fulfilling gameplayIMHO. This would also require the player to be constantly overt just like the Jedi Knight. They would be wearing only specialized factional armor, bringing life back to the starwarsy look and the GCW. Its just a thought and I hope maybe they'll consider it. I really think content beyond masteriswhats lacking in the game. Right now only two proffessions truly have and thats BH due to the BH/Jedi in game and Jedi due to the FRS system.


Just some thoughts why we wait...and wait... and wait is the paint dry yet



Novock
Cr|mson Kn|ghtsCo-Leader of <-CK->
Tim-bo
Cr|mson Kn|ghts- Architect/Droid Engineer/Merchant

garvin
Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:45 am
#39






Ryubushi wrote:


Hardcap the Jedi population where they're at now. No new Jedi can be created until we advance to a point in the SW timeline where it's appropriate to have 6,000 Jedi running around.


Then, institute a rotation system of sorts. Out of all the Jedi on a server, only3 or so are allowed to play their Jedi character per week. The other Jedi characters are locked down until it's their turn on the rotation. This will limit the number of Jedi we see running around trying to "pwn" everyone and enhance the SW feel somewhat.







There is a huge problem with that...no matter our own opinions, there are some players who only play SWG because they want to be a Jedi...SOE recognizes this and made an understandable business decission not to go with a capp'ing system (they'd be shooting themselves in the foot to tell new players "sorry, you can't be a Jedi until more slots open up")....


To get those "jedi wanabee" new players to keep playing they have to keep the possibility of being a Jedi open and uncapp'd otherwise SOE risks losing their business...most people quit the game because of frustration over the lack of fun things to do or the state of their choosen profession type...only a few quit because of "too many jedi running around"...Just because some of us don't have any interest in being a Jedi or seeing them run around, that doesn't mean everyone else agrees or that our opinion weighs heavier then theirs.


The trick is to force the Jedi back into hiding...think about it...would anyone have a problem if they rarely saw a Jedi? What incentive do Jedi currently have to stay way from cities or at the very least, hide that they are a Jedi while in a city? Typically when I go into a city as a Master Commando, unless I'm specifically on an Overt Raid (which doesn't happen that often these days) I don't go around flaming everyone and everything I see...But there are some Jedi that go out of their way to make it obvious within city borders that they ARE a Jedi...They have no incentive to hide...what if an "incentive" was coming?


That's all I'm going to say on that...I'm already focusing to much on Jedi when this is a Commando forum...Just trust that the Devs have a very cool plan in mind for dealing with the obviously over-abundance of Jedi out in the open.





Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie

Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith

ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

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