Commando Archive
Thread: why in the hell are you screwing comamndo's over devs its goiong to make me quit the game
Message Edited by Asterz on 11-16-2004 05:49 PM
As you should be...I think it best of everyone to be cautious about all of this...Seeing is believing...I've seen it all on paper and in discusssions, but until I see it on the Sandbox, I'm questioning everything...and even then, I won't feel secure until I see it on the live servers...a reason (besides the NDA) that I'm not comfortable revealing too much...
Asterz wrote:
Ahha! Your right I didnt follow you. I still remain unconvinced its completely 100% going to be set in stone but Ill give them the benifit of the doubt until we actually see the results a few months down the line.
garvin wrote:
NOT AT ALL and sorry if I gave that impression...it takes 169 pts to Master Commando...once that's done, in the current system, there is now way to improve our abilities with our Heavy Weapons (besides the FS path which of course is bugged)...in the Post CU world, there WILL be ways to further increase your skills and abilities but strategically dabbling your remaining skill pts, thereby turning your template into a 250 pt Commando...The same it true for Pistoleers, Rifleman, Pikeman, Fencers, etc...all will be able to further enhance their skills by dabbling strategically...
There will be NO Cookie Cutter templates post CU...let me repeat that HUGE point...There will be NO Cookie Cutter templates post CU...
And as for Flavors of the Month professions...everyone will obviously have their favorite flavors, but no Profession will be the preference of everyone...Sure, some people will gravitate in certain directions, but a key thing will be "Play Styles"...you will choose the profession you want based on that professions "role" and how you like to play...do you like to be on the front lines...do you like to do ranged damage...do you prefer speed...do you want cool new moves...do you want tohave"control" over your opponent, etc...
As I stated earlier...EVERY Combat Profession will have it's strengths and weaknesses...each one will have something they are better at then every other Combat Profession...The trick will be to focus in on what the strengths of the various professions are and then decide how to combine them best, while also taking into account the weaknesses that are left and strategically deciding how to deal with them (to prevent your opponent from taking advantage of those weaknesses)...Weaknesses for some profession templates can includelack of ranged specials, lack of melee specials, being in ranged or melee area, low defenses, low mobility, weakness to certain types of attacks, heavy HAM action bar costing specials, low damage capability, lack of healing ability, etc...there are tons of weaknesses that a template can have...and every template will have other templates they will always be able to beat, but likewise, they will also have certain templates they will never be able to beat...
We are moving AWAY from cookie cutter templates and FoTMs to a more diverse template system...we we start seeing a lot more template variety in SWG...people will have their prefered templates for PvE and PvP like they do now, but those preferences will be based on personal feelings, strategy and tactics...
Commandos after the CU will be a popular profession...but so will TKA, BHs, Rifleman, Pikeman, Smugglers, etc...each Combat profession will have something cool that only they are good at...
The other key thing is that groups Post CU will need to be more diverse then they were before to make sure they have all their bases/weaknesses covered...this means they'll want to have different templates onboard instead of the same cookie cutter templates...
Nerj wrote:
I guess the point is then what do we get for our 169pts. as opposed to someone elses 169pts. ? If for the direct investment into a single template is not better then an equal (169pts.) dabbler's template, then what would be the point of going or staying as a commando?
What's the point? Remember...each profession has a role...if you want to be the best at that role you'll dabble farther in that profession...i.e. a Commando Master WILL be better then a Commando dabbler no matter how many pts they dabble...did you notice I said a 169 pt MASTER Commando vs. a 250 pt MASTER Commando...the key is MASTER...
When it comes to the way the Devs are balancing, the problem arises in the way we look at things...If you took away all the pre-reqs of every elite or hybrid profession, do you notice that everyone would cost the same skill points? That's how we are ALL being balanced...All or our professions from Notive to Master will be balanced accordingly...they are being balanced as costing the exact same skill pts...now you may say "THAT SUCKS"...but take a step back...I just said that Novice Commando to Master Commando is being balanced against something like Novice Rifleman to Master Rifleman...both cost the same skill pts Novice to Master...But what did I leave out? This is where our pre-reqs come in vs their pre-reqs...We will get above what Rifleman get stemming from our extra pre-reqs...We get that extra defense, power, accuracy, etc above what a Rifleman gets because of what comes with our pre-reqs...It's basically working the balance thing backwards...
Now when I say we are all balanced evenly regarding our Novice to Master pt cost...I don't mean that they'll do our level of damage, or that we'll do their level of speed...imagine it more like we all start out as 3-3-3...but instead, Commandos go up in Damange but we have to take away from elsewhere, as in 5-3-1....Now imagine Rifleman want to have speed so they also have to take away from somewhere, as in 1-3-5...so here we have 2 evenly matched professions...one with high damage but slow speed and another with low damage but high speed...they balance out...so what breaks the tie? The PRE-REQs...but when we all hit 250, everything should still get back to balancing out...
So basically to cut through all that confusing babble...The higher you go in ANY profession the better you will be, so someone who just dabbles away all 250 pts without master much or anything will be weaker then those who Mastered 2 or 3 professions EVERY TIME...As in a Master Commando / TKM or Master Commando / Master Pikeman will be stronger, faster, tougher then a Master Commando / Rifleman /TKA / Pikeman...It all comes down to strategic dabbling and tactical role combination...
We need to move away from saying that we cost 169 pts so we need to be balanced like a 169 pt profession...we need to change that to being balanced as a Novice Commando to Master Commando costing the same as every other Novice to Master and instead focus on improving what comes with our Pre-Reqs to build on that...right now a lot of focus is being put on the Master Marksman box for us...it's a great place to put a lot fo good boosts...and also some focus is being put on the unarmed tree to add certain extra other boosts that will help certain other Commando changes/surprises...
Ok...this was a long winded babble...I'll step away for a bit...
PS...my example of Commando Vs. Rifleman is just made up...don't take what I said to imply that Rifleman are seeing anytime of Damage NERF...they, like everyone else, are being balanced appropriately...
Message Edited by garvin on 11-16-2004 09:20 PM
, I'd be scared to talk about much about suchmatters (I don't want to break the NDA) so I'll remain silent, but know that virtually all of us are doing and will be doing our best.
PsionicHawk wrote:
Garvin is walking a fine line
Not revealing anything...just expanding on what the Devs have already revealed and explaining HOW the balancing will go...The effort is 2 fold...(1) to ease everyone into understanding when the docs are relased...(2) to keep up excitement about the CU...
Nothing that I've said here or elsewhere hasn't already been revealed...I'm just collecting it all together and restating it in simplier terms...
PsionicHawk wrote:
Garvin is walking a fine line
Message Edited by BravenIrish on 11-17-2004 01:10 AM
garvin wrote:
Nerj wrote:
I guess the point is then what do we get for our 169pts. as opposed to someone elses 169pts. ? If for the direct investment into a single template is not better then an equal (169pts.) dabbler's template, then what would be the point of going or staying as a commando?
What's the point? Remember...each profession has a role...if you want to be the best at that role you'll dabble farther in that profession...i.e. a Commando Master WILL be better then a Commando dabbler no matter how many pts they dabble...did you notice I said a 169 pt MASTER Commando vs. a 250 pt MASTER Commando...the key is MASTER...
When it comes to the way the Devs are balancing, the problem arises in the way we look at things...If you took away all the pre-reqs of every elite or hybrid profession, do you notice that everyone would cost the same skill points? That's how we are ALL being balanced...All or our professions from Notive to Master will be balanced accordingly...they are being balanced as costing the exact same skill pts...now you may say "THAT SUCKS"...but take a step back...I just said that Novice Commando to Master Commando is being balanced against something like Novice Rifleman to Master Rifleman...both cost the same skill pts Novice to Master...But what did I leave out? This is where our pre-reqs come in vs their pre-reqs...We will get above what Rifleman get stemming from our extra pre-reqs...We get that extra defense, power, accuracy, etc above what a Rifleman gets because of what comes with our pre-reqs...It's basically working the balance thing backwards...
Now when I say we are all balanced evenly regarding our Novice to Master pt cost...I don't mean that they'll do our level of damage, or that we'll do their level of speed...imagine it more like we all start out as 3-3-3...but instead, Commandos go up in Damange but we have to take away from elsewhere, as in 5-3-1....Now imagine Rifleman want to have speed so they also have to take away from somewhere, as in 1-3-5...so here we have 2 evenly matched professions...one with high damage but slow speed and another with low damage but high speed...they balance out...so what breaks the tie? The PRE-REQs...but when we all hit 250, everything should still get back to balancing out...
So basically to cut through all that confusing babble...The higher you go in ANY profession the better you will be, so someone who just dabbles away all 250 pts without master much or anything will be weaker then those who Mastered 2 or 3 professions EVERY TIME...As in a Master Commando / TKM or Master Commando / Master Pikeman will be stronger, faster, tougher then a Master Commando / Rifleman /TKA / Pikeman...It all comes down to strategic dabbling and tactical role combination...
We need to move away from saying that we cost 169 pts so we need to be balanced like a 169 pt profession...we need to change that to being balanced as a Novice Commando to Master Commando costing the same as every other Novice to Master and instead focus on improving what comes with our Pre-Reqs to build on that...right now a lot of focus is being put on the Master Marksman box for us...it's a great place to put a lot fo good boosts...and also some focus is being put on the unarmed tree to add certain extra other boosts that will help certain other Commando changes/surprises...
Ok...this was a long winded babble...I'll step away for a bit...
PS...my example of Commando Vs. Rifleman is just made up...don't take what I said to imply that Rifleman are seeing anytime of Damage NERF...they, like everyone else, are being balanced appropriately...
Message Edited by garvin on 11-16-2004 09:20 PM
garvin wrote:
Nerj wrote:
I guess the point is then what do we get for our 169pts. as opposed to someone elses 169pts. ? If for the direct investment into a single template is not better then an equal (169pts.) dabbler's template, then what would be the point of going or staying as a commando?
What's the point? Remember...each profession has a role...if you want to be the best at that role you'll dabble farther in that profession...i.e. a Commando Master WILL be better then a Commando dabbler no matter how many pts they dabble...did you notice I said a 169 pt MASTER Commando vs. a 250 pt MASTER Commando...the key is MASTER...
When it comes to the way the Devs are balancing, the problem arises in the way we look at things...If you took away all the pre-reqs of every elite or hybrid profession, do you notice that everyone would cost the same skill points? That's how we are ALL being balanced...All or our professions from Notive to Master will be balanced accordingly...they are being balanced as costing the exact same skill pts...now you may say "THAT SUCKS"...but take a step back...I just said that Novice Commando to Master Commando is being balanced against something like Novice Rifleman to Master Rifleman...both cost the same skill pts Novice to Master...But what did I leave out? This is where our pre-reqs come in vs their pre-reqs...We will get above what Rifleman get stemming from our extra pre-reqs...We get that extra defense, power, accuracy, etc above what a Rifleman gets because of what comes with our pre-reqs...It's basically working the balance thing backwards...
Now when I say we are all balanced evenly regarding our Novice to Master pt cost...I don't mean that they'll do our level of damage, or that we'll do their level of speed...imagine it more like we all start out as 3-3-3...but instead, Commandos go up in Damange but we have to take away from elsewhere, as in 5-3-1....Now imagine Rifleman want to have speed so they also have to take away from somewhere, as in 1-3-5...so here we have 2 evenly matched professions...one with high damage but slow speed and another with low damage but high speed...they balance out...so what breaks the tie? The PRE-REQs...but when we all hit 250, everything should still get back to balancing out...
So basically to cut through all that confusing babble...The higher you go in ANY profession the better you will be, so someone who just dabbles away all 250 pts without master much or anything will be weaker then those who Mastered 2 or 3 professions EVERY TIME...As in a Master Commando / TKM or Master Commando / Master Pikeman will be stronger, faster, tougher then a Master Commando / Rifleman /TKA / Pikeman...It all comes down to strategic dabbling and tactical role combination...
We need to move away from saying that we cost 169 pts so we need to be balanced like a 169 pt profession...we need to change that to being balanced as a Novice Commando to Master Commando costing the same as every other Novice to Master and instead focus on improving what comes with our Pre-Reqs to build on that...right now a lot of focus is being put on the Master Marksman box for us...it's a great place to put a lot fo good boosts...and also some focus is being put on the unarmed tree to add certain extra other boosts that will help certain other Commando changes/surprises...
Ok...this was a long winded babble...I'll step away for a bit...
PS...my example of Commando Vs. Rifleman is just made up...don't take what I said to imply that Rifleman are seeing anytime of Damage NERF...they, like everyone else, are being balanced appropriately...
Message Edited by garvin on 11-16-2004 09:20 PM
Ok, but taking your example. How would a (169pt.) Master commando compare to a Master rifleman - 0444 TKM (169pt.)? Becasuse starting from scratch, you will hit 169 pts. of either before you get to the full 250. At this point, in the comparison, would they be considered equal?
By the same token If I am a Master TKMand Master commando with a little medic thrown in (249pts.), Compared to a Master TKM and Master Rifleman and 3 in fencer and 3330 Medic (250pts.)<- faster healing and defense. Will this cause a problem or be balanced?
garvin wrote:
PsionicHawk wrote:
Garvin is walking a fine line
Not revealing anything...just expanding on what the Devs have already revealed and explaining HOW the balancing will go...The effort is 2 fold...(1) to ease everyone into understanding when the docs are relased...(2) to keep up excitement about the CU...
Nothing that I've said here or elsewhere hasn't already been revealed...I'm just collecting it all together and restating it in simplier terms...
basically, we wont know how much they screwed up until release
you know as well as i do garvin, we Vets love to fnd out what theybroke as soon as the patch comes out. Some ofus evenact surprised and like we dont beleive it. i hope SoE doesnt dissapoint us, it gives us something to look forward to 
Message Edited by nerfherder321 on 11-16-2004 10:29 PM