Commando Archive
Thread: why in the hell are you screwing comamndo's over devs its goiong to make me quit the game
nerfherder321 wrote:
one quick question garvin, Will we ever be able to dual Weild pistols? Get special armor? do ANYTHING besides the "heavy weapons" that we have?
What I would like to see is the FT and HAR branches combined into a Special Heavy Weapons Branch, with generic specials...that way they can treat SHW like any othe type and ADD more content for commandos.
Cryroban Cannons (Cold), Deck Sweepers (Stun), Ballistic Gatling (Kinetic), Repeating Blasters (Energy), Rapid Fire Launcher Rifle (Blast)
All these weapons are eather already in the Starwars universe or logical jumps from existing items in the Starwars universe.
All of could be grouped under one unified set of SHW specials, Single1, Cone1, Single2, Cone2. (taking into account that modern autofire weapons are often used to attack areas or concentrate fire on one target.
garvin wrote:
I agree...trust me...I agree...But know this...if the CU was crap I'd tell you all...
Without violating the NDA I'm going to spill which main issues are being covered (by not saying how they are addressed in theCU,I figure I'm not violating anything...I'm mostly repeating what has already been revealed and expanding on certain things brought up)...
(((LOOKS OVER HIS SHOULDER FOR TH WITH A SNIPER RIFLE)))
- With the CU we will see our our Defenses go up to be more comparative with other lower costing professions...
- We will see an end to being Kited to death...We WILL be able to deal with Melee AND Ranged opponents with our own Commando Weapons...
- Damage Per Second will be a hot topic on the Sandbox as we are meant to be the "Heavy Damage Specialists" first and fore most...
- Recently added plans (if they have time) will see our Grenades work in the same fashion and effect as all other thrown weapons in game...
- I've said it before, but I'll mention it again, there is a proposal for a new Commando Weapon and it's NON-Consumable and will not be like what we currently have in just about every way...
- Our DoT isn't going anywhere...in fact, there is a good possibility that we'll see it turned up in power on the Sandbox. With certain changes going into effect with the CU, an Upgrade Lead Programmer even agrees with me that we have a strong arguement for it...
- Commandos WILL last longer in a fight and WILL be harder to kill then we are now...Imagine the damage you could do Pre-Upgrade if you could just last long enough to get off a few more specials...Now imagine if those specials were faster and more accurate...boosts to our abilities combined with being harder to kill makes for a very nice outcome in my mind...
- COUNTERS COUNTERS COUNTERS!!!
- And as I said earlier...We'll be FASTER, TOUGHER and HARDER HITTING then before...
That's just the tip of the iceberg (and unfortunately, nothing is guarenteed as everything is subject to change in the name of balance)...There is so much more to the CU that I wish I could reveal...and I'd love to expand on what I've posted above...Some people may be asking "If we are getting all that and more, then what are other professions getting and will it put us right back where we are now?"...other professions are currently fulfilling certain roles they were never meant to fill...THIS WILL BE adjusted...Some professions are seeing little tweaks or improvements while others are seeing serious direction changes to force them back into the role they were meant to fill...Commandos have always had a tough time filling our role as we were meant too...The CU is the Devs attempt to rectify that issue...
I hope this helps...
Message Edited by garvin on 11-15-2004 10:52 PM
Wow, that's the most that you've revealed yet Garvin...and I like it. hehe. Well, the mere promise that we'll be one of the top combat professions (as we're meant to be) is good enough to give me a bit more patience while we wait...and wait....and wait...and wait...and wait...and...wait...and...
Message Edited by LuciusScipio on 11-16-2004 10:18 AM
nerfherder321 wrote:
one quick question garvin, Will we ever be able to dual Weild pistols? Get special armor? do ANYTHING besides the "heavy weapons" that we have?
Ewwww....tough question...Dual Weild Pistols is something I know the Programmers want to work into the game...Will it come with the CU and will Commandos have it?
I'll answer it this way...Commandos from within our Commando trees will NOT be able to Dual Weild pistols...Why would we? That's more of a Pistoleer type of thing...Now the questions is, will Pistoleers get Dual Weild Pistols and if so, will Commandos be able to dabble to get it? Well, I can't really say yes or no...partly because I don't know for sure...I believe it's on the CU Programmers "If we have time" list (I could be wrong...the Pistoleer Correspondent is a better source for that info)...BUT...if Pistoleers do get Dual Weild abilities, then yes, we can go dabble for that ability and use it with various pistols...WE WILL NOT ever be able to dual weild our Heavy Weapons, I can guarantee that....although it would look and feel very Rambo'esk to dual weild to heavy weapons at the sametime, the Devs will be focusing on the idea of the weight of a weapon within the CU...
Asterz wrote:
You know what will happen though. We will get all these great changes and be the way we are described in the manual and various pieces of litrature and then a million non-commando players will moan about how uber we are (again if they are old enough to remember) and the nerf baton will be weilded on us faster than you can say gimp.
Here is the thing...If we don't get hit with the big NERF bat on the Sandbox, we most likely WON'T be hit with it outside the Sandbox...That's the place where all professions will be measured and balanced...Doesn't matter how many folks complain, the Devs will return with "learn strategy and tactics"...EVERY...and I'll repeat that...EVERY profession will have it's strengths and weaknesses...there will be no way to eliminate ALL of your weaknesses by spending all 250 pts, which will mean that ALL templates will be beatable...the trick will be knowing the weaknesses, preparing for them, and using them when you are faced by an opponent with just such a templete...
Commandos WILL have higher defenses, but not the highest...Commandos will be the heaviest hitters, but still slower then some other professions (the longer a battle lasts, the more the tide can shift)...Commandos will have to make a lot of tough decissions...Do you dabble for more offensive or defensive abilities is the first big questions? If you go for more offensive, you end up sacrificing defense and vice versa...
We will have our weaknesses...but we will also be able to exploit other professions weaknesses....There will be some key stratagies in the new system that we will discuss before the CU goes live...
garvin wrote:
We will have our weaknesses...but we will also be able to exploit other professions weaknesses....There will be some key stratagies in the new system that we will discuss before the CU goes live...
Message Edited by Kraftomatic on 11-16-2004 11:45 AM
garvin wrote:
Asterz wrote:
You know what will happen though. We will get all these great changes and be the way we are described in the manual and various pieces of litrature and then a million non-commando players will moan about how uber we are (again if they are old enough to remember) and the nerf baton will be weilded on us faster than you can say gimp.
Here is the thing...If we don't get hit with the big NERF bat on the Sandbox, we most likely WON'T be hit with it outside the Sandbox...That's the place where all professions will be measured and balanced...Doesn't matter how many folks complain, the Devs will return with "learn strategy and tactics"...EVERY...and I'll repeat that...EVERY profession will have it's strengths and weaknesses...there will be no way to eliminate ALL of your weaknesses by spending all 250 pts, which will mean that ALL templates will be beatable...the trick will be knowing the weaknesses, preparing for them, and using them when you are faced by an opponent with just such a templete...
Commandos WILL have higher defenses, but not the highest...Commandos will be the heaviest hitters, but still slower then some other professions (the longer a battle lasts, the more the tide can shift)...Commandos will have to make a lot of tough decissions...Do you dabble for more offensive or defensive abilities is the first big questions? If you go for more offensive, you end up sacrificing defense and vice versa...
We will have our weaknesses...but we will also be able to exploit other professions weaknesses....There will be some key stratagies in the new system that we will discuss before the CU goes live...
I understand all of that BUT that wasnt what I was saying. As we have witnessed a fair few times before (Wookie Armour, Jedi, Commando's, Creature Handlers, PVP in Kessel etc) people will whine if they think "we" are tougher than "them" and things will be changed.
The outrage that many professions (specifically Rifleman and some of the hand to hands) will feel come the Combat Update is going to be fairly strong if they arent the "most uber like they were before the CU" and thats what will cause the problems. Too many people who spend most time posting on froums and less playing and testing the game will complain and it will get changed. We see it all the time. I try to be optimistic about SWG but its a year down the line and they have backtracked on a lot of their original ideas for no better reason than jlittle johnny didnt like it. Just what I think will happen. I know you guys will do a good job for us and I really think the CU will be good. I just dont think it will be good for very long.
Kraftomatic wrote:
garvin wrote:
We will have our weaknesses...but we will also be able to exploit other professions weaknesses....There will be some key stratagies in the new system that we will discuss before the CU goes live...
I like the sound of that!
But seriously, are you talking about commando dabblers or master commandos dabbling in other professions when you speak of defenses and offensive output (I.E. a commando could dabble in pistoleer or BH for the launcher pistol in regards to post Combat revamp)
Message Edited by Kraftomatic on 11-16-2004 11:45 AM
Dabbling will be different post CU...Currently dabbling gives us defenses and skills that makes us hybrid mixes of various professions. Post CU, dabbling will be used to improve on your choosen profession / template theme. It will be more like taking your "role", combining it with the role or roles of other professions to create a new "hybrid role".
As for Commando Dabblers vs. Commandos dabbling in other professions...
Commandos will not need to dabble to get our better defenses, speed and accuracy, but dabbling in other professions will increase these elements...We will see our stats boosted at home before we go traveling...
As for those who Dabble in our Commando trees, they'll still be able to do that and many still will...BUT (and it's a BIG but)...Commando Dabblers will NOT be as good with our Heavy Weapons as those more dedicated to the Commando Profession (like Master Commandos)...I can't explain exactly how this will work, but it stems from many ideas we have proposed to the Devs for awhile now...let's just say that a Master Commando will be better with a FT then a 4444 Commando who will be better with a FT then a 3333 Commando and so on...But on the same note...a 250 pt Master Commando (a Commando who dabbles the right complimentary professions) will be better with the FT then a 169 pt Master Commando (a Commando who doesn't dabble anywhere).
I hope that all makes sense and isn't too cryptic...I know it's more of the same stuff I've said before (with a little bit of expansion)...
Message Edited by Kraftomatic on 11-16-2004 12:15 PM
Asterz wrote:
garvin wrote:
Asterz wrote:
You know what will happen though. We will get all these great changes and be the way we are described in the manual and various pieces of litrature and then a million non-commando players will moan about how uber we are (again if they are old enough to remember) and the nerf baton will be weilded on us faster than you can say gimp.
Here is the thing...If we don't get hit with the big NERF bat on the Sandbox, we most likely WON'T be hit with it outside the Sandbox...That's the place where all professions will be measured and balanced...Doesn't matter how many folks complain, the Devs will return with "learn strategy and tactics"...EVERY...and I'll repeat that...EVERY profession will have it's strengths and weaknesses...there will be no way to eliminate ALL of your weaknesses by spending all 250 pts, which will mean that ALL templates will be beatable...the trick will be knowing the weaknesses, preparing for them, and using them when you are faced by an opponent with just such a templete...
Commandos WILL have higher defenses, but not the highest...Commandos will be the heaviest hitters, but still slower then some other professions (the longer a battle lasts, the more the tide can shift)...Commandos will have to make a lot of tough decissions...Do you dabble for more offensive or defensive abilities is the first big questions? If you go for more offensive, you end up sacrificing defense and vice versa...
We will have our weaknesses...but we will also be able to exploit other professions weaknesses....There will be some key stratagies in the new system that we will discuss before the CU goes live...
I understand all of that BUT that wasnt what I was saying. As we have witnessed a fair few times before (Wookie Armour, Jedi, Commando's, Creature Handlers, PVP in Kessel etc) people will whine if they think "we" are tougher than "them" and things will be changed.
The outrage that many professions (specifically Rifleman and some of the hand to hands) will feel come the Combat Update is going to be fairly strong if they arent the "most uber like they were before the CU" and thats what will cause the problems. Too many people who spend most time posting on froums and less playing and testing the game will complain and it will get changed. We see it all the time. I try to be optimistic about SWG but its a year down the line and they have backtracked on a lot of their original ideas for no better reason than jlittle johnny didnt like it. Just what I think will happen. I know you guys will do a good job for us and I really think the CU will be good. I just dont think it will be good for very long.
Actually I think you might have missed what I was saying...Whining BEFORE the CU will be taken differently then Whining AFTER the CU...Before the CU people had the arguement that "Professions are out of Balance and therefore need to be NERF'd" and unforunately in some cases they were right...
But the Sandbox testing (both Alpha and Beta) are the place where the Whiners will have to get out their whines and complaints...All of the professions will be balanced against each other, so post CU, if you NERF one, you screw up that delicate balance...that's something the Devs will want to avoid at all costs...So Whiners will be told "Commandos are balanced appropriately" and that WILL stick in the post CU environment...Let them whine all they want...their whines will have no backing and the Devs won't want to make any big adjustments without fearing putting things back out of balance which inturn would eventually lead to the need for another CU (and do you really think they'll want to do that)...
The CU is MEANT to deal with all the whines and complaints that have been going on since this game launched...It's the last great hurrah for the Whinner class...If they don't get their "NERF THEM" pleas in before the CU goes live, they probably won't be able to do anything for a very longtime...That's why it's so important that we get as many people as possible into the Beta...not just to balance us, but to make sure other's are balanced aganist us.
The key mistake the Devs/Programmers made in the past is adjusting professions one or two at a time which threw them out of balance with other professions/templates...In the CU they are adjusting ALL combat professions at the SAME time...that's 14 professiosn that are seeing major adjustments...and then they are taking those adjustments one step farther...they are actively testing them in a Beta environment to further balance them. Any whining that comes after all of that will have very little influence and will be just seen as a person who "can't deal"...
A key thing to remember is that we won't be UBER...to be uber is to have no weaknesses (or weaknesses that are impossible to hit in most cases)...that won't be the case...
The Devs have already been practicing their responses to Post CU complaints and whines...I can hear them now:
"Keep getting beat?Go dabble elsewhere to better adjust your template strategically."
and my new favorite...
"They are balanced appropriately as compared to other professions...learn strategy and tactics."
Kraftomatic wrote:
"Complimentary professions"....169 pt commando won't be as good as a 250 pt one? I don't like the sound of this Garvin...these plans are encouraging FoTMs. As an avid follower of FoTMology, this is not good. A Master Commando will not be as good as an FoTM commando? Seems to me dabbling in certain professions with certain trees as master commando is creating cookiee cutter faceless FoTMs.
Message Edited by Kraftomatic on 11-16-2004 12:15 PM
NOT AT ALL and sorry if I gave that impression...it takes 169 pts to Master Commando...once that's done, in the current system, there is now way to improve our abilities with our Heavy Weapons (besides the FS path which of course is bugged)...in the Post CU world, there WILL be ways to further increase your skills and abilities but strategically dabbling your remaining skill pts, thereby turning your template into a 250 pt Commando...The same it true for Pistoleers, Rifleman, Pikeman, Fencers, etc...all will be able to further enhance their skills by dabbling strategically...
There will be NO Cookie Cutter templates post CU...let me repeat that HUGE point...There will be NO Cookie Cutter templates post CU...
And as for Flavors of the Month professions...everyone will obviously have their favorite flavors, but no Profession will be the preference of everyone...Sure, some people will gravitate in certain directions, but a key thing will be "Play Styles"...you will choose the profession you want based on that professions "role" and how you like to play...do you like to be on the front lines...do you like to do ranged damage...do you prefer speed...do you want cool new moves...do you want tohave"control" over your opponent, etc...
As I stated earlier...EVERY Combat Profession will have it's strengths and weaknesses...each one will have something they are better at then every other Combat Profession...The trick will be to focus in on what the strengths of the various professions are and then decide how to combine them best, while also taking into account the weaknesses that are left and strategically deciding how to deal with them (to prevent your opponent from taking advantage of those weaknesses)...Weaknesses for some profession templates can includelack of ranged specials, lack of melee specials, being in ranged or melee area, low defenses, low mobility, weakness to certain types of attacks, heavy HAM action bar costing specials, low damage capability, lack of healing ability, etc...there are tons of weaknesses that a template can have...and every template will have other templates they will always be able to beat, but likewise, they will also have certain templates they will never be able to beat...
We are moving AWAY from cookie cutter templates and FoTMs to a more diverse template system...we we start seeing a lot more template variety in SWG...people will have their prefered templates for PvE and PvP like they do now, but those preferences will be based on personal feelings, strategy and tactics...
Commandos after the CU will be a popular profession...but so will TKA, BHs, Rifleman, Pikeman, Smugglers, etc...each Combat profession will have something cool that only they are good at...
The other key thing is that groups Post CU will need to be more diverse then they were before to make sure they have all their bases/weaknesses covered...this means they'll want to have different templates onboard instead of the same cookie cutter templates...
Message Edited by garvin on 11-16-2004 09:33 AM
Nope...Skeptic is doing a great job asking all the right questions and being the perfect "Skeptic" that I was looking for...You all should see him over there...
Skeptic666 wrote:
Garvin you da man
I wish we could say more about any thing hehehe. The docs are starting to shape up pretty well guys. As soon as we can actualy test the profession we will give you guys more feed back (if garvin does not boot me I think im starting to annoy him hehehe)
Peace