Commando Archive
Thread: Some Friendly Testing Advice for TH and other Devs...You'll quickly change your mind!
shutout
Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:14 pm
#14
Tal-N wrote:
Commando's are designed for one on one PvP style combat mainly. The commando fills the role of the group support profession, the damage dealers. They fall into the same field as the rifleman who needs to be stationary to have decent accuracy and is again a support combat profession. The test they did was to see what the situation was with the burning DOT which I have been saying along with others has been overpowered for ages and in PvP allows for what is essentially a one hit kill and has griefing potential.
have you ever fought a master rifleman in pvp? they can hit you from point blank or from 64m away on the run and hit more often than not.have you tried to hit a rifleman with a flamer special? their ranged defense alone (without stacking tka or fencer) is enough to make us miss 75% of the time. believe me, if rifleman had to lay prone 64m away, carbiniers had to kneel 30m away, and pistoleers had to stand 20m away to fire and be effective, i'd agree with everything. but with all the ranged professions out there (besides us) being able to run and gun kiting every melee and commando out there, i don't think so. the only way commandos are overpowered is with group tef and revenge tef. the former, i don't know what plans they have for that. the latter has been dealt with. you don't nerf classes because of game issues. you fix the issues. anyone that thinks otherwise is just here to see us get nerfed. all those that want us nerfed, have no clue what they're talking about. honestly, if you can't beat a commando in pvp now, you honestly should work on your toon more or quit pvp altogether.
tacwraith
Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:29 pm
#15
accuracy is not an issue for the commando. its the ranged kiting Garvin is talking about. Some of you should learn that intimidate IS part of your commando skills and that it does significantly lower the other guy's defenses.
but leaving that aside, what garvin is doing is like rubbing a dog's snout into his own excrement to teach his wrongdoings. And the dog begins to eat it with gusto.
but leaving that aside, what garvin is doing is like rubbing a dog's snout into his own excrement to teach his wrongdoings. And the dog begins to eat it with gusto.
Theedage
Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:39 pm
#16
People also need to realize that to combat kitting you have a VERY powerful ally - The Rocket Launcher. Use dmg sliced ones and their ap3 cuts through composite like nothing.
If I find I'm getting kited I'll run the OPPOSITE direction to get into my 48m-64m positive range modifier range faster, fire off a RL if that doesn't do the trick keep running that way to stop getting kited, then step into 64m ( your RL has +25 or higher range modifier at the extreme range and master commando is +100 rl accuracy ) so you can run in fire one off run out ( assuming you can take 1-4 hits from the left hand animation.
However, I do agree with the orig poster in how much bs it is in us vs practically any other profession. Our weapons are inaccurate to begin with, throw in def stacking, throw in target moving, throw in commandos moving ( to chase target ), then tell me how much of a chance we honestly have against other professions who take MUCH MUCH less skill points to acquire and master.
If I find I'm getting kited I'll run the OPPOSITE direction to get into my 48m-64m positive range modifier range faster, fire off a RL if that doesn't do the trick keep running that way to stop getting kited, then step into 64m ( your RL has +25 or higher range modifier at the extreme range and master commando is +100 rl accuracy ) so you can run in fire one off run out ( assuming you can take 1-4 hits from the left hand animation.
However, I do agree with the orig poster in how much bs it is in us vs practically any other profession. Our weapons are inaccurate to begin with, throw in def stacking, throw in target moving, throw in commandos moving ( to chase target ), then tell me how much of a chance we honestly have against other professions who take MUCH MUCH less skill points to acquire and master.
Halmet
Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:01 am
#17
Theedage wrote:
People also need to realize that to combat kitting you have a VERY powerful ally - The Rocket Launcher. Use dmg sliced ones and their ap3 cuts through composite like nothing.
If I find I'm getting kited I'll run the OPPOSITE direction to get into my 48m-64m positive range modifier range faster, fire off a RL if that doesn't do the trick keep running that way to stop getting kited, then step into 64m ( your RL has +25 or higher range modifier at the extreme range and master commando is +100 rl accuracy ) so you can run in fire one off run out ( assuming you can take 1-4 hits from the left hand animation.
However, I do agree with the orig poster in how much bs it is in us vs practically any other profession. Our weapons are inaccurate to begin with, throw in def stacking, throw in target moving, throw in commandos moving ( to chase target ), then tell me how much of a chance we honestly have against other professions who take MUCH MUCH less skill points to acquire and master.
I agree that the RL is a good weapon, but the problem with that is, like you said, accuracy.
In PvE it isnt that bad to miss a few rounds most of the time, but in PvP where every second counts, missing once could mean life or death. Then theres the fact that we have to kneel to use it. That basically makes us sitting ducks, especially if that first shot misses.
shutout
Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:06 am
#18
tacwraith wrote:
accuracy is not an issue for the commando. its the ranged kiting Garvin is talking about. Some of you should learn that intimidate IS part of your commando skills and that it does significantly lower the other guy's defenses.
but leaving that aside, what garvin is doing is like rubbing a dog's snout into his own excrement to teach his wrongdoings. And the dog begins to eat it with gusto.
oh it is an issue. i was pvp'ing against a master rifleman with some tka and fencer. i was with others, and my master brawler friend stuck both intimidate2 and warcry2 on her. she was also pre-occupied with other targets at the time. i had time to /kneel;/aim;/flamesingle2 about 3 times, never hitting once. so, i tried unarmedknockdown2, unarmeddizzy, umarmedlunge, unarmedhit3. all of those missed. the way the defense is stacked now with some professions, you're lucky to get a hit in.
StarNick
Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:09 am
#19
Tal-N said:
"They [commandos]fall into the same field as the rifleman who needs to be stationary to have decent accuracy and is again a support combat profession"
Yet previous to that sentence, you said we were created as One on One combat...contradiction. Also comparing us from a 40-64 m ideally ranged class to our ideally range of 16... (specials only) ... have you ever heard of a meleer have to stand still to slap? have you ever heard of a close range fighting guy be very slow and unmanuverable..or essentially has to stand inmobile up close while the enemy beats the heck outa him [Heavy two handed swordsmen [real life ones that is]dont count..since they can block..we have no such thing..we cant dodge..just STAND there..]?
No...The devs have created a monstrosity that totally ignores the principles of warfare.
And I totally agree with garvin, commando vs commando is the most narrowed minded test ever and shows that they put little or no effort into planning that test.
The majority of the time in PvP..we do NOT face other master commandos..usually BH, TKA, Pistoleer, Carb, etc...Master Com vs Master Com should be ONE of MANY tests conducted..since we do come to fight against each other...but thats like 10% of the time...why didnt the devs even attempt to test the other 90% ??
Im sure when they deemed Eye shot overpowered for BH..they tested it out on the elite ranged and melee...
And if they did...tells something about "Selecting Testing"
StarNick
Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:21 am
#20
Tac wroteth:
"accuracy is not an issue for the commando. its the ranged kiting Garvin is talking about. Some of you should learn that intimidate IS part of your commando skills and that it does significantly lower the other guy's defenses. "
Whats the use of intimidate when your out of range to use it? atm im leveling swordsman on valcyn...intimidate sometimes takes a few tries to get pasted onto the target, many times can have no effect..and can only be used up close (unless theres a weird bug preventing intim from a far..but from what ive seen only up close) and Im using the same exact intimidate that we get...
So...with ranged kiting..we cant use that skill anyways
Also, accuracy IS an issue here..not so much for the flamer, but for our heavy weapons..and mainly with the ideal range modifiers...even with the flamer, we can barely hit anything that moves from a far...look at pistoleer..my fwg5 is +25 on ideal range, and i almost NEVER miss from the range of one of my heavy weapons...yet miss most of the times using the latter against a moving target, hell even a standing target
Also, especially in PvP..alot of times we dont hit with our special because of the enemy moving...then we get cut to ribbons...sure this is the risk factor but whats the point of having it if our specials get trounced on? only the HAR and FT have specials, and only the FT at the moment gives commando that oomf that sorta helps keep the risk factor in balance..with that oomf taken out, we get less bang for the buck
Simply put..commandos have always had more disadvantages than advantages..as garvin said..the devs now want to take out or reduce our ONLY advantage to us..damage..and whats the big damager? the dot
"The One DoT to rule them all, One DoT to find them"
"One DoT to bring them all and in the darkness flame them"
Everything..kiting..accuracy...spd..delay..it all boils down to that one DoT..the DoT is life essance of commando since the devs have practically refused to fix the rest of our proffession
Tal-N
Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:46 am
#21
This doesn't tell the whole story (I think the comparison gets worse for Commando as you go) but specific to your comment, it doesn't look similar at all.
I'm not talking about stats, I'm talking about intent. a rifleman cannot hit the broadside of a barn when the enemy is in their face, they have goingcan't kite, they don't have quick firing specials and generally on the whole they lack defences. What they dofor them is some decent firepower and the ability to punch clean through any armor. The commando is in the same position except we have the ability to deal with close range targets as well, the drawback there is that we have a slow firing rate but massive damage dealing ability. Once you start dealing with group support the rifleman and commando has the same role, we sit in an artilery position and throw damage in while everyone else draws the fire.
The test TH speaks of was to look at the situation with the DOTs in reguards to PvP, that whole part where it was mentioned spoke about DOTs. He didn't say that the commando profession as a whole was overpowered, just the flame DOT itself.
Tal-N
Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:54 am
#22
have you ever fought a master rifleman in pvp? they can hit you from point blank or from 64m away on the run and hit more often than not.have you tried to hit a rifleman with a flamer special? their ranged defense alone (without stacking tka or fencer) is enough to make us miss 75% of the time.
You can't make that kind of comparrason because rifleman is designed for extreme long range attacks while the commando is a general support profession. The fact is that if you used a rocket launcher in PvP against a rifleman you'd win with ease. Also while a rifleman can deal alot of damage a commando can deal well over x3 that at master. As for riflemen running around with their T21's blasting away... it doesn't happen. The accuracy for them is just as bad a commando in that sense and once someone moves into closer range if the rifleman is running around too they'll miss very easily. A commando at close range though utterly dominates, that is what I mean by the profession being designed for support since they can deal damage but can't really hold their own because of the delay between attacks so the enemy either needs to die from the first attack or the commando needs someone else to draw the enemies attention. You never have raw commando's tanking and that shows they don't belong directly in the firing line in PvP or PvE, so if they aren't in the firing line they are naturally in a support role.
Theedage
Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:16 am
#23
Tal..... fight a master rifleman with a JIR ( jawa ion rifle ) from extreme close range and tell if if they cannot hit you. If they have their defenses stacked ( more often then not they will ) they're better upclose then a frigan melee class ( save tka ).
Thunderheart
Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:33 am
#24
garvin wrote:
This is meant to be a postive post offering some testing advice for TH to better understand our issues...
He stated the other day that he and a Dev friend logged into TC as Master Commandos and fought each other in a Cantina. I do not believe that was an accurate test to understand our difficulties...
TH...please try your test again...except this time try the following combinations:
Master Commando VS Master TKA - Start next to each other...Flame Special VS Spammed Dizzy/KD...
Master Commando VS Combat Medic - Start at 30m...Deal with ranged disease attack...
Master Commando VS Bounty Hunter - Start at 30m...Deal with ranged kiting and Mind Bleed...
Master Commando VS Any Ranged Profession - Start at 30m...Just deal with ranged kiting...
Master Commando VS Marksman Pistol Tree Only - Start at 30m...Again deal via ranged kiting...
Now remember...Commando is the "Heavy Weapon Specialist" of the game...We have "apparently" one of the most feared weapons and specials in the game...capable of causing serious grief...In all the above test scenerios, who is the victor? Don't use any secondary profession dabbling as not all Commandos have the same templates.
There are plenty of other combos for you to try, but Master Commando Vs Master Commando is just to even to fairly judge our profession...
Now, once you've tried fighting all those combinations, think about adding in the "no stacking" rule and "fire extingishers"...Our advantage (as you and others have expressed)doesn't seem to unfair once you've been in all these types of fights...
I understand what you are saying. Im a commando and I play PvP. None of this flies.
Some things to keep in mind:
1. There is a combat balance underway / spamming will mostly be a thing of the past
2. There is a PvP balance coming up next
3. Mind Bleeds / other Dots have been balanced
4. HAM costs changing
5. Versus any ranged profession = no dice. Professions are neither "classes" nor is any one class supposed to have "everything"
6. I see Commandos drop Pistoleers all the time. The Pistoleers fret over the fact that they arent as powerful as other elite profession.
Fire DoTs arean unstoppable DoT.
Anything that can be done and NOT un-done is unfair.
When you consider combat items, try to think of them as they will be and not as they are.
Kiashia
Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:37 am
#25
Thunderheart wrote:
garvin wrote:
This is meant to be a postive post offering some testing advice for TH to better understand our issues...
He stated the other day that he and a Dev friend logged into TC as Master Commandos and fought each other in a Cantina. I do not believe that was an accurate test to understand our difficulties...
TH...please try your test again...except this time try the following combinations:
Master Commando VS Master TKA - Start next to each other...Flame Special VS Spammed Dizzy/KD...
Master Commando VS Combat Medic - Start at 30m...Deal with ranged disease attack...
Master Commando VS Bounty Hunter - Start at 30m...Deal with ranged kiting and Mind Bleed...
Master Commando VS Any Ranged Profession - Start at 30m...Just deal with ranged kiting...
Master Commando VS Marksman Pistol Tree Only - Start at 30m...Again deal via ranged kiting...
Now remember...Commando is the "Heavy Weapon Specialist" of the game...We have "apparently" one of the most feared weapons and specials in the game...capable of causing serious grief...In all the above test scenerios, who is the victor? Don't use any secondary profession dabbling as not all Commandos have the same templates.
There are plenty of other combos for you to try, but Master Commando Vs Master Commando is just to even to fairly judge our profession...
Now, once you've tried fighting all those combinations, think about adding in the "no stacking" rule and "fire extingishers"...Our advantage (as you and others have expressed)doesn't seem to unfair once you've been in all these types of fights...
I understand what you are saying. Im a commando and I play PvP. None of this flies.
Some things to keep in mind:
1. There is a combat balance underway / spamming will mostly be a thing of the past
2. There is a PvP balance coming up next
3. Mind Bleeds / other Dots have been balanced
4. HAM costs changing
5. Versus any ranged profession = no dice. Professions are neither "classes" nor is any one class supposed to have "everything"
6. I see Commandos drop Pistoleers all the time. The Pistoleers fret over the fact that they arent as powerful as other elite profession.
Fire DoTs arean unstoppable DoT.
Anything that can be done and NOT un-done is unfair.
When you consider combat items, try to think of them as they will be and not as they are.
fire dots not unstoppable, stand in water and fight a commando, now you have a new story.
Theedage
Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:39 am
#26
None of this flies????? Wow TH..... you are out of touch. Come play on Bria where PvP is rampant and OBSERVE. You play on what... TC where there is no PvP how can you in your right mind say this when WE the PLAYERS are dealing with this EVERYDAY. Trust us for once, come and observe.
Also... firedots unstoppable in PvP give me a break..... All it takes is a buff for a person to be virtually immune to it let alone have stacked defense to where we can't even hit them. ( yes i tested this vs a friend I missed him 11 straight times. ) The only effective way to take out someone who is buffed... is you guessed it...... STACKING DOTS..... but we can't do that anymore... and they get fire-extinguishers, where does that leave us? Firing off rocket launchers is a good idea, however they're too slow and random ham damage does not make them effective for people who are fully buffed and can heal themselves ( which is close to everyone in PvP ).
Come... observe some real PvP. Hell... I'm sure you have the power to participate. I encourage you.
Also... firedots unstoppable in PvP give me a break..... All it takes is a buff for a person to be virtually immune to it let alone have stacked defense to where we can't even hit them. ( yes i tested this vs a friend I missed him 11 straight times. ) The only effective way to take out someone who is buffed... is you guessed it...... STACKING DOTS..... but we can't do that anymore... and they get fire-extinguishers, where does that leave us? Firing off rocket launchers is a good idea, however they're too slow and random ham damage does not make them effective for people who are fully buffed and can heal themselves ( which is close to everyone in PvP ).
Come... observe some real PvP. Hell... I'm sure you have the power to participate. I encourage you.