Commando Archive
Thread: Quick Comment for Lord Seckmoth
Look, my real point isnt that we need to be toned downin DOT. My point is that TH has said that there is going to be a total overhaul of ALL combat professions. We gotta look at that. From the figures you bring I'd say your right bout us not outdamaging people but the thing is, everything is going to be getting a big re-balancing.
What we need to do is talk reasonably with each other here and figure out the role of what we are going to be as a combat profession. Everything we are is going to take no precedance.
Things Im talking about is maybe we should say that as commando,an elite hybrid combat class we should be stronger than a pistoleer/rifleman/carbineer/TK and so should BHs, CMs, etc. Then say our role as commandos on this level of combat class would be we should do crowd control damage like what our flame cones do, attack multiple targets, where BHs are head hunters and should do great damage and status effect/status fighting to a single target.
Do you understand what I am saying? There are changes coming, welcome or not. Our only hope is to try to direct which way to go with our profession. All DOTs I know for fact are going to get a huge change somewhere, Tacs proposal of keeping the higher end damage that we do get at master is an attempt to keep us from losing it completely, and I believe thats what LordS is tying to support. I dont think LordS thinks at master we are too powerful rather he is trying to save it for us masters since most the grieving comes from every one and there brother just taking the FT line.
Lets stop arguing and try to be more productive. If we stay at each others throats like this, we will be weak when this total combat rebalance comes around.
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Look, my real point isnt that we need to be toned downin DOT. My point is that TH has said that there is going to be a total overhaul of ALL combat professions. We gotta look at that. From the figures you bring I'd say your right bout us not outdamaging people but the thing is, everything is going to be getting a big re-balancing.
I totally agree. Well put. That is why I posted in the first place.
My point is that we need to be pushing to preserve the domance of the flame dot over all other dots in the game.As you said, we should be stronger than all "elite classes" because of the skill point difference. This means more damage and a stronger dot.
This is why I keep cringing every time LordS says "we are looking at reducing the flame dot." Unless all dots are getting an equal nerf, we are losing a combat advantage over other classesthat is rightfully ours.
Call me crazy, but I think we should be fighting to keep the domance of the flame dot, not standing and watching it get nerfed to the level of all other classes...
It sounds like you mostly agree...
Here is my main worry: Look at pets. Devs nerfed the hell our of non-CH pets, promising that they will someday allow players to handle more than one faction pet or droid with certifications and rank. As of today, that nerf is in place. They didn't wait to implement the entire system in one change, the nerfed first with the promise of fixes later. In fact, the proposed compromises aren't contained in any of the definite plans the devs have shown us for the next 6 months. Chances are, those promises made to calm the masses will never come to fruition.
The devs have a habit of putting the cart before the horse, and then forgetting the horse.
If we allow the devs tonerf the flame dot, with the promise that after all the combat changes are implemented it will be rebalanced, we are falling for the same dog and pony show sony has been feeding us for months. The promised re-fixes will NEVER happen.
THAT is why we need to fight for the flame dot now. Let the devs know it is important, and a defining characteristic of our class. Let them know that above all, it needs to be preserved in whatever combat changes are made. If we don't, we will get empty promises that are never fulfilled and be returned to the most worthless class in game (see 2 months ago).
I suggest you get a stopwatch and time how long it takes for a gun-user's bleed to start ticking. Then time how long it takes for a flamethrower bleed to tick. Compare the damage each does.
What you say here does not match, at ALL, with what I see in my game. And my flamer is 4.7 spd, sliced for damage not speed.
"The ACTUAL DAMAGE (WITHOUT the dot) does 4k to 5k damage per hit with flame single with a 10 second delay AT GRENADEER with flame single TWO"
again, wrong. Unless you are hitting a high heat resist target, the flamer will do around 8k damage to the great majority of targets in the game.
"Let me lay out my point in preschool terms: We do LESS ACTUAL DAMAGE over time than other classes. "
Let me lay out the reality outside preschool for you: We are FRONTLOAD damage dealers. What it takes an elite ranged class 10 special attack shots and 10 seconds we do in ONE shot, in ONE second.
"If you disagree...prove me wrong. Do what Ivoni did and get actual in game weapons and experiment. Until then, however, you are a bag a hot air that has no support for anything you are saying."
Ivoni proved our damage output was either at par or just under other proffessions OVER TIME. What apparently you fail to understand is that it takes the other classes several special shots to do the same damage we do in ONE shot. You also fail to understand that unlike the ranged proffessions, we have brawler abilities that work IN FLAMER RANGE that will make our targets NOT be able to shoot back.. WARCRY. We also have INTIMIDATE which works out to 30m and makes them hit us half as hard.
Just because you dont see the commando skills as a WHOLE and because you were merely a flamethrower monkey your whole commando career doesnt mean all commandos are like that. Try to duel a master commando with your pistoleer skills, TELL the master commando to try and warcry you or intimidate you (as most dont even know we have this skills) .. you will be amazed just how things turn out. And yes, WARCRY is a CONE effect. I have taken down 7 imperials in one charge by warcry'ing them out of their ability to shoot and flameconing2 their butts. I have defeated master BH's spamming eyeshot at my ubese armor wearing self because my intimidate CUT HIS DAMAGE in HALF and made him so easy to hit it just wasnt funny.
"I HAVE shot a flamethrower, and used numbers from my experience at master."
Congrats. See above paragraph. You did not use your COMMANDO skills, just a flamethrower skill. Master Grenadeer. Fah!
"I HAVE been a pistoleer and consistently hit for 1000 with stopping shot."
Good for you. Now go back to pistoleer and see the HAM cost, the Accuracy chances and lets not forget, the effect of armor on your shots. See if your pistoleer damage adds up to a flamecone2 with dot on top vs a composite armor player. Yes, even over time.
"I HAVE been a master pikeman, and easily outdamage my flamer (at the highest skill level you can currently have for flamethrower) 2 to 1."
Of course you have. Melee classes will ALWAYS outdamage any ranged class. Even us. Thats called gameplay balance, which you apparently have no clue about. However, the Flamethrower Special Timer wears off, and you are again able to punch in another frontloaded damage. While your previous flamespecial attack's dot is still active. When facing an Enraged Rancor, who has 100% heat resists, my commando's fire dot will kill the rancor as fast as a master tka drops his rancor by using the KD attack and hitting target on the ground (which they then get damage bonus on).
But ask yourself this: Can a master heavy sword, master fencer, master tka, master pikeman drop 3 enraged rancors at once? No.. they... cant. Commando can. And the commando can simply burst run, flame cone and whiz away, fire and forget dot attack.. the master melees cant.
I can understand you NOT wanting to get the fire dot nerfed. I dont want that either. But you must LOOK at the game itself, not the single class vs this other single class. The problem is the DABBLING in the grenadeer tree allowing any jackarse to just up ONE skill tree and getting ALL of our damage output. The result is in EVERYONE having massive damage output, making the commando class, not just the grenadeer tree, look super powerful, no matter its shortcomings or bugged skill trees.. all people see, all the devs see, is hundreds and hundreds of people running around with flamethrowers... that bringeth the nerf. Remember why CH's were nerfed this patch.. any asswipe could have master CH pets with just half the points spent of a master. Its like if I just were to up one pistoleer tree and get all the accuracy and damage mods in 1 tree alone. Thats why pistoleer has 2 trees. 1 accuracy, 1 damage. Take damage only and the accuracy is so bad it wont matter if you do 1k damage a shot if your shots dont connect. Take the accuracy and you'll be stuck with pistols4 from marksman damage, but hitting constantly. Neither is a thing you can have that will let you match the power of a master pistoleer.
Grenadeers oth, get both the single and cone attacks initial damage (which is high and is frontloaded).. but they get the DOT too.
If we make the flamespecial 2 attacks AND the fire dot go to master commando ONLY, then will the commandos NOT be in danger of being nerfed to high heck later on. For only those with the master box will have the damage boost of the fire dot.
While I can’t speak for non-pistoleers, I have been a master pistoleer, and the wounds generated by the Health Bleed (the pistoleer DOT) are not as considerable as you make them appear. Not trying to be argumentative, but just pointing it out. Now, that isn’t to say the wounds gained aren’t proportional to the amounts of damage. The burn of our flamer dot is a hell of a lot more potent than a health bleed, so the wounds you see are larger/more drastic.
And of course, what you said, about them being more obvious because we can see them, I fully agree with.
Tac is right about the comparison between pistoleers and Commandos. While I’m not a Master Commando, I already out-damage my Master Pistoleer character in the initial shot, and while my pistols (any of them) will fire faster that a flamer, by time I’ve met the damage, I’ve lost 4/5 of my Action. And Pistoleers do not have a ranged knockdown. We did before the patch that fixed the Commandos, I believe, but that was a coding error. We had a carbineer special. As a pistoleer, I’m sure you knew that.
I DO have support for what I’m saying. I’ve done both. Yes, over time, the commando damage is not that much higher, per second, over the some other weapons. However, in your example you gave, if you’re smart enough to use tactics and not trying to be a one trick pony, then you have a damned near entirely full Action bar, where the pistoleer has nearly done himself in.
Since you HAVE been a pistoleer, you know what I’m talking about. Take an FWG5, with a good damage slice (speed slices are worthless to a pistoleer), slap a decent damage powerup on it, and go to town against something, with say, a 50% heat resistance. You’re 4-5k of damage got dropped to 2-2.5k, with an appropriate bleed, while the FWG5, with stopping shot and a Healthshot 1& 2 stacked on top of it go…you’re still getting the full effects of your bleed, which is based on 4-5k of damage, not the reduced damage, and you’re still doing 4 to 5 times MORE damage than that FWG5. Which, I agree, does consistently get between 900 and 1100 points of damage with stopping shot.
Pistoleer Fanshot hits multiple targets, not as accurately, but with great damage…with no change of a bleed with those shots.
With the Commando damage, while over time we scale backwards, we hit with a HELL of a punch in the beginning. I can kill half the things I hunt with one shot on my flamer…with my pistoleer, I’m kiting for fifteen, twenty seconds.
I HAVE shot a flamethrower, and these are MY numbers with attacks from using flame single 1, and oversharge shot 2.
I HAVE been a MASTER Pistoleer. Not just a pistoleer, but a Master.
I’m not touching the Pikeman issues.
I’ve hunted since week three of the games release, when I first got it.
And I’ve fought nearly every single class in PvP, as both a pistoleer and a Commando, and get my ass handed to me regularly (and I do know the meaning of tactics).
I understand your frustration, honestly…but we’re not supposed to be the combat gods people think we are. You brought up how you were outdamaged by a TKA, who takes less points to master than Commando? Then we should be outdamaged by a BH every time…which, honestly, we’re not. I’ve traveled with a BH regularly, until we switched servers, so I know what damage he did, and what damage I do (and yes, I was a commando with that character too). Theirs, and ours, are comparable.
I won’t speak for Sek’s job as correspondent…I just recently came back to these hallowed halls…but honestly, Dark, from anyone on the outside looking in, you sound like half the other people trolling these boards, pissing and moaning about their professions because they aren’t the end all, be all, with a healthy dose of arrogance who doesn’t see your way as the ONLY way.
Sorry if that offends you.
Joar-Addam (Joar) Nessosin, Kettemoor, Medic, Commando, Scout, Smartass
I don't know where you guys are getting this crap...
(1) I have never had a signature....ever. I have mastered commando. I dropped down to a 3040 commando 3 weeks ago to master pikeman for my last holocron profession... I have 900k in flame xp waiting for me when I go to remaster commando, so I will be back in a day when I am done with holocrons.
If you would like to see a screen shot of my master pikeman tag and commando xp I would be more than happy to provide it.
(2) I know EXACTLY what I am talking about on commando damage. If you read what I posted you would understand. There are 2 aspects to commando damage: (1) the actual damage and (2) the dot.
The ACTUAL DAMAGE (WITHOUT the dot) does 4k to 5k damage per hit with flame single with a 10 second delay AT GRENADEER with flame single TWO. The only reason I mentioned 15 was because I was saying all commandos have a 10-15 second delay on specials...15 at lower levels, 10 at higher levels). I was illustrating the range of commando ACTUAL DAMAGE, and saying that it does not get much over 500 per second. Many other combat classes CAN get well over 500 second. I assume you don't disagree
I also said NOTHING about the delay on the dot. Why? Because our dot is no faster or slower than any other dot. It just does more damage.
Let me lay out my point in preschool terms: We do LESS ACTUAL DAMAGE over time than other classes. The ONLY reason we do more damage over time is our dot, which (as I have said) hits harder than other classes dots. So, if you reduce the dot in line with other classes...everyone say it with me...we do less damage then other classes that take half as many skill points to master.
Illustration (I'll use big numbers for commando): Commando hits for 6k damage (10 second delay) + 21000 flame hits (one every 5 seconds). Total damage over 10 seconds = 8000 = 800 damage per second. Pistoleer shoots health shot 2 which does 100 damage over the next 10 seconds (1 second), and then shoots stopping shot foraverage 800 damage each second for the next 9 seconds. Total Damage over 10 seconds = 7300 = 730 Damage per second.
Now...cut our dot in half. Commando = 700 damage per second. Pistoleer = 730. Do you understand?
(3) The "we get to do a bunch of damage up front" thing is worthless. If you would look at the numbers you would see that several classes do more damage over time than us. So, here is the scenerio: Commando up against any other elite or hybrid combat class. Commando has to run into special range, and not get knocked down or blinded on the way in. Then the commando has to one shot the other player, or get their health SO low that one flame dot burn will take them out. If the commando doesn't, the other class does more damage over the next 10 to 15 seconds and wins. So basically, our whole existance as a class depends on our ability to one shot others.
That's exactly what we want to be isn't it? One shot kill artists? Suicide bombers? No thanks...
(4) As far as the loot comment...let me put it to you this way: The dot didn't have any effect whatsoever...it didn't have time.I shot flame 2, my friend shot flame 2, the teras kasi had the thing on the ground before the flame dot had it's next burn. That from a class that takes 1/2 as many skill points to master.
Look. I bought this game to be a commando. I was reading about the commando class months before the game came out. I grinded my way to commando as fast as I could starting the second the game came out...well did before I ever did anything else in game, and have been a commando pretty much since the game came out. I went through 2 months of gimpyness, followed by a fix that balanced commando and gave me a reason to exist (and not drop it out of frustration). Now that balance is being threatened because a bunch of players are ignoring the fact that we do less actual damage than most other classes, and are saying that our flame dot is overpowered when compared to other dots.
I am saying that is wrong, and any player who disagrees is missing the forest for the trees.
If you disagree...prove me wrong. Do what Ivoni did and get actual in game weapons and experiment. Until then, however, you are a bag a hot air that has no support for anything you are saying.
I HAVE shot a flamethrower, and used numbers from my experience at master.
I HAVE been a pistoleer and consistently hit for 1000 with stopping shot.
I HAVE been a master pikeman, and easily outdamage my flamer (at the highest skill level you can currently have for flamethrower) 2 to 1.
I HAVE gone up against every class in pvp, and have gotten owned almost every time.
I HAVE hunted since the game came out with other classes, and have been getting outdamaged for way too long.
Until you can say the same, YOU are the one who doen't know what you are talking about.
Daker
It is really good to see someone experienced and logical standing up for commandos. I thank you for taking the time to type out all your thoughts and arguments and counteracting peoples rhetoric (not facts). Please keep up the good work I completely agree with everything you say. I can't believe how passionately some of these commandos are trying to commit this profession to suicide. Infact it makes me wonder if they are actually commandos even.
If I was a really devious person of some other class and had some psychotic problem against commandos I would be saying everything they are saying. It's a deceptive way to harm a class - act like you are part of that class and cry that you are too overpowered. TRY AND CREATE THE MENTALITY THAT THIS CLASS IS OVERPOWERED AND INSTILL IT IN OTHERS BY TALKING ABOUT IT SO MUCHTO GET IT NERFED. It is probably the most effective way to accompish such a harmfulgoal.
Our class is not on their way to being uber-nerfed nor do we need to be. We need a lot more fixes, and if everything gets fixed and then something turns out toneed to be tweaked fine- but AFTER the fact. Ihave no idea where these people are coming up with this eminent destruction of the commando UNLESS WE SACRIFICE THIS THIS AND THIS. These allegations are not true at all.
Commando needs more, in terms of fixes, specials variability, pure damageper secondto skillpoints ratio, and class definition.
-Ketaken Liie
-Master Commando / Master TK
Arkon have you been looking at the other boards, or did you read THs post about the art of combat?
People are screaming nerf on us everywhere at the same time TH is talking about full combat rebalance and whenever the DEVs say anything about rebalancing it means trouble. People just want to protect what they feel is important about their class.
Yes, I know we need a lot of fixes but that is functionality in the DEVs eyes and they dont seem to mix it with balance.
I guess if you want, just sit back, bend over, grab you ankles, and hope for the best.
Tac,
I'm sorry but once again you have failed. You are justifying your arguments with wrong numbers and stupid "perks" (ex: "yeah...but...but...we get intimidate and warcry...we are the uberest ever!)
(By the way...my name is Daker, not Darker...speaks worlds for why you are still arguing with me if you cannot read enough to even get my name right.)
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again, wrong. Unless you are hitting a high heat resist target, the flamer will do around 8k damage to the great majority of targets in the game.
Yeah, this is 100% incorrect.
#1 a majority of the mobs in the game, outside of beginner areas, have heat resists or some kind. You will not hit for 8k on a majority of targets (remember, the damage you see in your combat window does not equal the actual damage reflected by the
#2 your argument that commandos can do 8k with a SLICED flamethrower is assine. Did I say anything about slicing on the pistols, pikes, etc. I was using for examples above? No? Hmmmm...
You are comparing the damage capability of your sliced weapons to my numbers fron unsliced weapons. Hmmmm... who is going to win, a sliced or an unsliced weapon.
#3 I will guarantee that you DO NOT hit for 8k EVERY time. I will bet your damage range with your sliced flamer is 4k to 8k, with 8k being the number you hit one in 10 times. At least I was honest and gave a range of damage (on the high end) and said "this if the max we will do."
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Let me lay out the reality outside preschool for you: We are FRONTLOAD damage dealers. What it takes an elite ranged class 10 special attack shots and 10 seconds we do in ONE shot, in ONE second.
Dude, why the hell are you still saying this. Look, unless you one shot kill something, DAMAGE OVER TIME IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS. If it takes us 2-3 hits over 20 seconds to kill something, and it takes another class 20-30 hits over 20 seconds, what is the difference. Both were killed over 20 seconds.
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Ivoni proved our damage output was either at par or just under other proffessions OVER TIME.
This is exactly my point. Without the flame dot, we do at or less damage than ever other class (which take half as many skill points to master) OVER TIME.
As a side note, Ivoni also proved that the low end for our delay is 9-10 seconds, which has also been my experience. Stop telling people 4-6 seconds, because it's wrong.
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You also fail to understand that unlike the ranged proffessions, we have brawler abilities that work IN FLAMER RANGE that will make our targets NOT be able to shoot back.. WARCRY. We also have INTIMIDATE which works out to 30m and makes them hit us half as hard.
AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *breathe* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
So we get warcry and intimitate, and that makes us SO unbalanced that the flame dot should be reduced?
Dude with the 10 to 15 second delay on the flamer these abilities are worthless. You either (a) have to get in melee range and use them before attacking (getting hit all the while), or (b) wait for the 10 to 15 second delay and then use them (getting hit all the while) instead of doing more damage and flaming again.
Any smart commando is going to get the hell away from any mob they flame to wait out the flamer delay. What good does that 10 second delay and 10 seconds of slower action from the mob (intimidate doesn't reduce damage, it makes the mob hit slower), do if the mob can't hit you anyway because you have backed up out of its range and are running around?
(oh, and I don't want to hear about ranged damage inbetween shots...we just got 80% ranged resistance in addition to the AR1 50+% resistances we get from composite armor. Ranged is no longer a huge problem).
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Just because you dont see the commando skills as a WHOLE and because you were merely a flamethrower monkey your whole commando career doesnt mean all commandos are like that. Try to duel a master commando with your pistoleer skills, TELL the master commando to try and warcry you or intimidate you (as most dont even know we have this skills) .. you will be amazed just how things turn out. And yes, WARCRY is a CONE effect. I have taken down 7 imperials in one charge by warcry'ing them out of their ability to shoot and flameconing2 their butts. I have defeated master BH's spamming eyeshot at my ubese armor wearing self because my intimidate CUT HIS DAMAGE in HALF and made him so easy to hit it just wasnt funny.
I do see them as a whole. The whole is damage over time. The whole is 3 broken trees with our only weapon being the flamer.
Besides that your stories are fabricated. I use warcry VERY often. My favorite is to use pikeman AOE knockdown, and then warcry to keep them on the ground for 10 seconds. The ONLY way you got 7 imperials warcryed with warcry 1 was if all 7 were standing on top of each other, and all were just standing there watching you do it (7 people attacking you = dead you). I doubt it. Also any master BH would have knockdowned you from 50m, dizzied, blinded, and only then eyeshotted you. You cannot imtimidate from the laying down position. If you beat him, he was either an noob idiot (not likely for a master commando) or you are making it up.
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Congrats. See above paragraph. You did not use your COMMANDO skills, just a flamethrower skill. Master Grenadeer. Fah!
Congratz, you have no idea what you are talking about. We have 3 broken trees, so we ALL are flamethrower jockies. And, because I have stated it 3 other times and you haven't caught it yet...I am the farthest thing from a flamethrower jocky. I flame and then switch to pike for ranged knockdown, center of being, greater accuracy with warcry, a couple of high damage hits, and making the mob switch to melee weapons. I then run back (the mob is now using a melee weapon) and flame on the way out. Tell me again I'm a flame jockey.
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Good for you. Now go back to pistoleer and see the HAM cost, the Accuracy chances and lets not forget, the effect of armor on your shots. See if your pistoleer damage adds up to a flamecone2 with dot on top vs a composite armor player. Yes, even over time.
Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Pistoleer ham costs are minimal, and ham regenerates over time (even during battle). Paired with a good food like breath of heaven or tatoonine sunburn, and the ham costs DO NOT EXIST. It is obvious you haven't used a pistol much.
Also I think it is FUNNY you mention accuracy. If a pistoleer misses 2 of 10 stopping shots...he does 8000 damage instead of 10000.
If we miss with our flame thrower, as we often do, we do ZERO damage over 10 seconds. So who is better off? I will go for diversified, reliable damage ANY day.
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Of course you have. Melee classes will ALWAYS outdamage any ranged class. Even us. Thats called gameplay balance, which you apparently have no clue about.
You cannot possibly be a commando. No commando would say this. Combat is combat. We take twice and many skill points to master our class, we should get to do more damage. THAT is balance. You should quit now, because statements like this show you are clueless and dead set on ruining the class. Oh wait...there's more.
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When facing an Enraged Rancor, who has 100% heat resists, my commando's fire dot will kill the rancor as fast as a master tka drops his rancor by using the KD attack and hitting target on the ground (which they then get damage bonus on).
Not true. TKAs do generally do close to 10 times the damage our flame dot does over a period of time. They are hitting continuously with full power attacks, the dot hits once every couple of seconds with a lesser attack.
Now, it is true that the flame dot seems to work on a percentage, and that with a few super high ham, high end mobs, it might do close to the same damage as a TKA. However, this is FAR from the norm, and baseing the balance of our entire class on a handful of mobs on dantoonine is idiotic.
I also find it funny you cite the use of the dot against a 100% heat resist mob, at the same time you are trying to get the flamer dot nerfed against heat resists. "Look at this advantage we have that I am trying to take away."
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But ask yourself this: Can a master heavy sword, master fencer, master tka, master pikeman drop 3 enraged rancors at once? No.. they... cant. Commando can. And the commando can simply burst run, flame cone and whiz away, fire and forget dot attack.. the master melees cant.
Master Pikeman? Yes I can. I have at least done 2 at once.
As for the flame and run out of range tactic, I personally consider that an exploit. I also note that all melee classes get DOTs, and all ranges classes get DOTs. ALL classes can use the EXACT same tactic...it is just slower because our dot currently does more damage (unless you get your way...you will not I am fighting to maintain the dominance of the flame dot).
I will also note that you CANNOT kill a rancor with one flame dot...it wears off 1/3 to 1/2 of the way through its HAM bar. You also CANNOT burst run more than once every 15-20 minutes or so (I will admit I do not know what the exact timer is because I don't use it much). At that pace, it will take you an hour to kill those 3 rancors at once. That's pretty glamerous isn't it...taking a hour to kill 3 mobs by exploiting and running like a coward?
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I can understand you NOT wanting to get the fire dot nerfed. I dont want that either. But you must LOOK at the game itself, not the single class vs this other single class. The problem is the DABBLING in the grenadeer tree allowing any jackarse to just up ONE skill tree and getting ALL of our damage output....
This only makes sense from a flamethrower jockey point of view. If our ONLY weapon were the flamethrower, this would make sense. The problem is that we have THREE broken trees with over a dozen separate weapons that we cannot use, not that the flamethrower needs to be spread out over 3 trees.
The problem is that all of our damage output is currently in one tree because the others are broken. Fix the trees, and your point is irrelevant.
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Grenadeers oth, get both the single and cone attacks initial damage (which is high and is frontloaded).. but they get the DOT too.
If we make the flamespecial 2 attacks AND the fire dot go to master commando ONLY, then will the commandos NOT be in danger of being nerfed to high heck later on. For only those with the master box will have the damage boost of the fire dot.
More misinformation. Flame 1 dots are not as good as flame 2 dots. They are already much less and do not need to ber nerfed.
Let me also express to you how totally and utterly STUPID the following statement is: "If we make the flamespecial 2 attacks AND the fire dot go to master commando ONLY, then will the commandos NOT be in danger of being nerfed to high heck later on. For only those with the master box will have the damage boost of the fire dot."
Ok, so we have 3 broken trees. Our only weapon is the flamethrower. In ACTUAL damage terms (as in no dot or the lesser dot) we do WAY less damage than other classes. This is even more true for the flame 1 attacks, which do roughly half of the damage of flame 2 attacks. Now, you want to move the DOT, and our only good actual damage attacks to MASTER commando? You want commandos to have to weather through 16 skill boxes with only subpar damage capabilities (even though a 0030 pistoleer can do 1000 damage), to get the dot? You want the class to be totally and utterly gimped compared to every othe class until master?
More importantly, even though NOVICE commando takes 118 skill points to get, whereas it takes ONLY 98 to MASTER teraskasi, pikeman, fencer, swordsman, rifleman, carbineer, and pistoleer, you want a novice commando to be balanced with every other class?
I don't think I need to say any more... This guy is nuts.
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I guess if you want, just sit back, bend over, grab you ankles, and hope for the best.
Hip, if someone would show TH real damage numbers (as in we do the same or less actual damage than every other class + our dot damage), and show him that our dot damage is justified becausea 0040 commando has spent 132 skill points whereas a MASTER of any elite class has spent 98. No one will be grabbing anything.
This, again, is my point. If LordS does his job, there will be no nerf...
Oops, I just did the very thing I criticized for (wrong name). Sorry TechnoHic.
"(ex: "yeah...but...but...we get intimidate and warcry...we are the uberest ever!)"
Its is part of our skillset. And yes, it multiplies our combat effectiveness.
"(By the way...my name is Daker, not Darker...speaks worlds for why you are still arguing with me if you cannot read enough to even get my name right.)"
got any other stupid thing to cling to other than spelling?
" At least I was honest and gave a range of damage (on the high end) and said "this if the max we will do."
on all those points above, the sliced damage flamer was to show the speed of the flamer. ive owned speed sliced and damage sliced flamers. both of them have hit for 8k the great majority of times. With my sliced flamer my damage has topped at 14k max. On knocked down targets, 25k.
"remember, the damage you see in your combat window does not equal the actual damage reflected by the "
this applies to pistol damage as well. dont argue with yourself here.
"Dude, why the hell are you still saying this. Look, unless you one shot kill something, DAMAGE OVER TIME IS THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS. If it takes us 2-3 hits over 20 seconds to kill something, and it takes another class 20-30 hits over 20 seconds, what is the difference. Both were killed over 20 seconds."
Damage over Time only matters as long as you have TIME. Frontloaded damagedoes not. You can say both will kill in 20 seconds. Many things can happen in 20 seconds.
If my master commando duels your master pistoleer, assuming both will kill each other in 20 seconds (just for example's sake), your pistoleer will rely on his specials hitting every single time during those 20 seconds. I, on the other hand, rely on having TWO of my attacks hitting you (using your example that i'd need 2 hits).
In this utopian duel, lets believe none of us will miss, so we can compare apples to apples. By the 10th second of the duel, both of us are at 50% life. Here is the CRITICAL point.
I have the luxury of CHOOSING when in those other 10 seconds to smack you for the other half of your life with one of my SPECIAL attacks. You have NO choice BUT to keep using your 10 specials to bring down my other half of my life.
What can I, the master commando do at this point to win? I can, in those 10 seconds, INTIMIDATE you ( i can even try to intimidate you 3 times before the 8th second is up). Now the TIME your master pistoleer relied on works against him.Say he intimidates you in the 11th second (remember, nobody is 'missing' any attacks.. intimidate and any commando marskman/brawler skill is an attack). That means that your remaining 9 shots in which you had relied on to kill me, will now become 18 shots.
Which is more than plenty of time for the commando to use his special on youon the 13th second (intimidate takes about 2 seconds to let you attack again). Or he can WARCRYyou AFTER the intimidate. 10 seconds in which you just cant shoot. Commando still buys himself time to useanother special attack on you andhave a much higherchance of killing you before you kill him.
Or commando can just use Overcharge 2 and hit you for 5k damage on a hit while you are intimidated or warcried.. either way you will go down. All because you DONT have the frontloaded damage capability I do.
Butin the real SWG, the pistoleer canand does miss severalshots, so can the commando, both can get hit by someoneelsewho joins the fight, etc etc. But the fact remains, that the commando just needs score ONE hit to do the damage, the pistoleerdoes not. If the commando misses his first shot, he's in trouble, but he still can use his other abilities to save his arse (which may or may not work, this is where all those nifty defense mods come into play). But the pistoleer has nothing for him other than to keep using his highest damage special over and over and over.
That is why the hybrid classes have much better effect specials than the pure combat classes. The commando frontloads and has his brawler and marksman abilities up his sleeve. the BH has all his effect-inducing attacks (which are designed to counter your high damage per shot by crippling your ability to shoot.. by blind, stuns, fire dots, knockdowns, etc.. they make YOU take longer than THEM to win, all through their abilities rather than pure damage).
"So we get warcry and intimitate, and that makes us SO unbalanced that the flame dot should be reduced?"
No, the flame dot should not be reduced for the MASTER title holder. Just like master elite classes dont really get their top notch accuracy and speed mods until they get the master box (especially true for riflemen). However, as commando is now, the grenadeer gets the damage and the same dot as the master commando. The speed and accuracy mod at master title makes little difference to what you have at grenadeer. That is why the grenadeer fire dot should be reduced. and yes, even the flamespecial1 dot is very powerful for a low level box holder. Its akin to giving a high level pet to a CH. Oh wait, THATS why the CH tree got reorganized this patch. This seem familiar to you?
"I do see them as a whole. The whole is damage over time. The whole is 3 broken trees with our only weapon being the flamer."
Assume a magical fairy waves her hands and fixes our HAR and our grenade tree accuracy modsand increases damage and adds the radius blast on our heavy weapons. What weapon will you use at close range? The flamethrower. it outdamages grenades, it outdamages the har, you'd be stupid to use a heavy weapon at point blank and still do less damage. Resists would be the only reason to make you switch, but then again, all the other classes are also forced to switch to lower damage range weapons when they meet this issue. Im sure a rifleman is thrilled to switch to an SG82 because his target had high resists to his T21's and Laser Rifle damage types but little resists to the Cold damage of the SG82.
"The ONLY way you got 7 imperials warcryed with warcry 1 was if all 7 were standing on top of each other, and all were just standing there watching you do it (7 people attacking you = dead you). I doubt it."
They didnt have much time to shoot me, i burst run up to them and warcried. as to why they were standing near each other I dont give a rats arse about. The whole reason WHY i went up to them was because they were so close, otherwise i'dve maybe thrown aheavy weaponat one of them and laughed as I ran away.
"Also any master BH would have knockdowned you from 50m, dizzied, blinded, and only then eyeshotted you. You cannot imtimidate from the laying down position. If you beat him, he was either an noob idiot (not likely for a master commando) or you are making it up."
im master tka as well. I havethe defenses of a melee class against dizzy and knockdown, im relatively hard to get effects to stick on me,notto mention hard to hit thanks to master commando and master tka ranged and melee defense mods stacked up.
"You cannot possibly be a commando. No commando would say this. Combat is combat. We take twice and many skill points to master our class, we should get to do more damage. THAT is balance. You should quit now, because statements like this show you are clueless and dead set on ruining the class. Oh wait...there's more."
THAT is your whole problem right there. You think BALANCE is done by DAMAGE. its NOT. I was so right in you being a Master Grenadeer monkey.
"TKAs do generally do close to 10 times the damage our flame dot does over a period of time. They are hitting continuously with full power attacks, the dot hits once every couple of seconds with a lesser attack."
And I assume you are a master TKA too to say this? I am. I know that I can flamesingle2 1 enraged rancor and start punching a 2nd one and both will drop at about the same time. my tka is subject to the kinetic resists of the rancor, the fire dot is not subject to heat resists. Once that is fixed (and it should be subject to heat resists) then the TKA will outdamage the commando. But only because the creature's resists dictated so, not because the tka is superman with a 8itchslap fetish.
"Master Pikeman? Yes I can. I have at least done 2 at once."
Good for you. Now go and try to do more than 2. Without self-healing of course, we're talking just pikeman ability vs commando ability.Thats no problem for a commando, the cone attack hits them all for the same amount and ticks them with the dot. And hey, with *insignificant* ham cost, the commando has his rather full ham bars to kite the rancors and use his marksman specials or brawler specials to buy himself the time for the fire dot to do his magic. Or use burst run.
"More importantly, even though NOVICE commando takes 118 skill points to get, whereas it takes ONLY 98 to MASTER teraskasi, pikeman, fencer, swordsman, rifleman, carbineer, and pistoleer, you want a novice commando to be balanced with every other class?"
118 points and receive both melee range and long range high damage weaponry of various damage types (actually, we get all but stun and kinetic) that all can be applied on multiple targets at once. 98 points to receive only short range high damage with very few damage types in the melee classes, and 98 points to receive high damage ranged attacks with again, limited damage types. Oh, and their aoe attacks are of limited power compared to the commando's.
So yes, it is balanced. You just fail to see how. your l33t kiddie wanting superhuman damage because 'we spend so many points, we are commandos, others beat me up waa waa' attitude blinds you imo.
I'm sure both sides of this have good arguements. This thread is to long for that not to be true. I like Draker started this game to be a commando, and was one when it sucked. Since then they have fixed some of our problems but some still remain.
My reaction to the ANY changes to the DOT or DAMAGE of a flamethrower would be negitive until they fix the class so I have another attack. Right now right or wrong the FT is the daily use weapon for a commando. I've tried to work in the HW and/or Grenades into the mix but the HW are to slow and the Grenades just don't work. It's hard for me to understand how this class can be balanced without HALF of the skill points in the tree dedicated to equipment that is very difficult or no possible to fit into tactical situations in the game.
I don't have the same experience and/or knowledge of other weapons as the other posters but right now I depend on the damage and the DOT to be effective. Reducing either reduces my effectiveness. By saying this it seems I'm agreeing with one side or the other. I'm not. I have been very effective in most PVP encounters but as with all things some people beat me.
I guess my biggest conern if it is not clearly expressed is that I dont feel this class is complete and that changes to it (balancing or whatever) need to take into account the fact that most of our effectiveness is tied to one weapon lowering that weapons damage or DOT drasically changes our class
Cosmo Richter
Master Commando
come to Bria if you need education on how to use a commando's full arsenal.
oh and btw, the 25k damage is on a knocked down target. you conveniently 'skip' that part.. or maybe you do not know that kd'd targets receive a damage multiplier. either way, i am willing to show you in person how all this works.
Are you up to proving me wrong, in person? or you want to keep throwing baseless tantrums here?