Commando Archive
Thread: Quick Comment for Lord Seckmoth
I really don't think they should nerf the fire dot considering WE HAVE ONE WEAPON!!!! How make the other trees work before you ruin the one that does work.
tacwraith wrote:
come to Bria if you need education on how to use a commando's full arsenal.
oh and btw, the 25k damage is on a knocked down target. you conveniently 'skip' that part.. or maybe you do not know that kd'd targets receive a damage multiplier. either way, i am willing to show you in person how all this works.
Are you up to proving me wrong, in person? or you want to keep throwing baseless tantrums here?
Challenge accepted! You give me a time, tell me a place to start my character, and pay my travel costs, and I will create a character on Bria.
Here's the deal...You show me 20k to 25k in damage on a single target in one shot of Flame 2, and I will post and admit I am wrong. If you can't you post admitting that you are full of hot air.
I will notwaste more than 30 minutesor so on this crap because I have better things to do than watch you do the exact same amount of damage I said you would.
I will try and accomodate you on that. However, read what I typed about that 25k hit, I said:
"With my sliced flamer my damage has topped at 14k max. On knocked down targets, 25k."
TOPPED. A 25k hit is the maximum damage i have ever done, and it was on a KD target. I know ive done it, I do not know if i can reproduce it at will. But i will try to, i know it can be done.
However, that 'challenge' to you was not to show you the mechanics of the damage multiplier on a KD target, it was to show you the warcry/intimidate abilities that the commando can draw on, as well as the master marksman abilities which we DO have as commandos. In short, that the flamethrower is not the almighty only weapon we must rely on exclusively and because of that it should be given more power because other classes 'outdamage' us , as it was what you said when you began putting ivoni's tests here.
the time? I play most of the day on the weekends, so feel free to drop by and send me a tell grasshopper.
and i only mentioned the top damage i ever did on a KD target. Theres six classes in the game that can KD, and with which you will end up grouping lots with that do give the chance of torching a KD'd target: TKA, Master Brawler, Carbineer , smuggler, pikeman and BH. Just because I say the max ive ever done on a KD target was 25k does not mean its a commando skill. If you will notice, I did say how much I did on a non-kd'd target didn't I?
Daker,
Maybe I miss spoke, but I do not believe so, but I never said I was going to ASK for a Flame Nerf. I was asking about whatthey meant by DoT changes in the upcoming combat balances; also I have stated on many ocassions that my personal opinions do NOT reflect what I am going to present to the dev's. If you needed clarification you can just ask me; attacking me in the open is not the way to get things done.
Now you're asking for numbers; here's a few examples from my Master Commando on Bloodfin for you:
FT
Speed: 4.2
Damage: 890-1230
The Ft takes me 6.8 seconds to refresh every shot *used a stopwatch* and all FT DoT's can be stacked. If you go damage per second, with a FS2 we can do between 5k-8k damage. Which with good speed puts us over 1k damage a second with our specials. Now all DoT's tick at the same rate, also stop watched this to check, but each have different delays before the ticks activate. HS2 for example has a 21.3 second delay before the tick first activates, Stopping has a 17.9 delay, ours the 15 second timer starts right away.
Now tick for tick, ours does way more damage than any other single DoT out there. HS2 does 300 or so, our FS2 can dodamage of 2k a tick on average. Now the whole PvP reductions can go into these equations; but take the fact that adding one standard FT shot plus one tick of our DoT equals an incap. There is no other profession that has that capability.
I do think that the DoT as it stands is overpowered, if you actually take a Stopwatch and time it, take the fact that all of our burns can stack,resists do not reduce the damage,we can hit multiple targets with these burns, they hit ONE pool and do massive wounds. Anyone would think that this was overpowered; the problem is that all of our other trees are underpowered and need to be fixed. That would make this a much easier process and dabbling would be reduced.
Now let me put it to you this way:
If say Carbineer had the capability, to in 13.6 seconds, stack 2 DoT's against you that would do 1500 damage or so to you..... nomatter the armor, what would you think? Now add to it, the cure for this DoT is not easy to come by, needing a Master Elite to stop it, or some nearby landform. Okay now add on that your action bar will be completly black by the time the DoT's are done ticking and you will have to spend the time healing yourself or finding and paying someone to do it. Wouldn't you then be pretty pissed off at the Carbineers that could consistently do this to you, oh yeah and all your friends within a few meters of you?
I am taking down as much as I can; and there is a lot to get up to speed on that is not just Commando related. So I may not be that visible at first as I ramp up everything to take all of this down; but I am here and listening. The only thing is I have to listen to reason, and if you actually go out and crunch:
Downtime from Heals
DoT Ticks
Initial Hits
Other Skills that we gain to Boost This
There is a lot going into my reasoning for it being overpowered. I do not talk about things without having done personal testing on them; I may not have the time at a current moment to go into detail, but I am able to if need be. I have a lot of things I want to do here; and many things need fixing. If you need me to clarify something I have said, once again just ask, do not attack. We are all here to work FOR Commando; not to nerf it. Oh and how I see a "nerf" is something negativly effecting a class, not something that balances the class because a section of it is overpowered.
Now THAT is a reply...good job LordS...
A few comments:
(1) A Speed: 4.2 Damage: 890-1230 Flamethrower. While I do not doubt you, I will note that on Naritus the best flamethrower I have ever found is Speed 4.6 Damage 400-920 (rough damage numbers because I don't have it anymore--it decayed from use and was destroyed upon repair-- and I haven't found a comparable one since...I do know the delay was 4.6, and the max damage was in the low 900's).
Is your FT sliced? If so please realize that of course your flamer is going to do more damage than the unsliced numbers I gave.
(2) It seems from your numbers that you are saying that commandos do a little less than 1200 a second on the high end (actual damage only). I still think this puts us in line with the amount of damage other classes can do. If we have an advantage, it is a relatively small one.
(3) That leaves us with the dot. Like other classes' dots it is stackable (although we have to wait out the delay to actually stack it). Yes, our dot does more damage than other classes. However, I believe that because of our current broken state, and the fact that many mobs have heat resists, this is our ONLY real advantage over other classes right now, and is something we are entitled to in the current state of the game. We are a specialized combat class who expend a lot of skill points to get where we are, and should have a better dot. The question is how much better...
You highlighted one of thekey points about the dot...if it were subject to other players' heat resists, it would be much more balanced. The problem is that this leaves us vulnerable as a class (in other words broken again) until our other trees are fixed. My main concern, and reason for posting in the first place, is that the devs are going to see our posts about possible changes to the flamethrower and act on them, without first fixing the rest of our abilities. If the devs are changing our dot in the next patch, well before you and TH have even submitted the commando top 5, this is a given.
All I am asking is the following:
(1) That the dot, being our only substantial advantage over most other combat classes, be preserved until we get some attention to our other trees. If the flamethrower gets nerfed, and we have no other choice of weapons, we lose most of our combat ability. I think we should fight to keep the dot powerful until we get our other fixes.
Put simply: We should be pushing for fixes before we start proposing ideas about how to nerf the dot.
(2) Our dot should not be the same as other classes' bleeds. After all is said and done, we need to have a more powerful dot. I think the best limiting idea it to make it subject to heat resists in armor (like other dots). However, if it is simply reduced to the damage level of every other classes' dots, we have been done a disservice.
I appreciate you replying to me, especially using numbers that you tested. Please understand that I did not mean to personally attack you, but was pointing out the danger of our class being nerfed back to worthlessness just 2 months after we were actually fixed. If we are not getting fixes any time soon, I think we need to fight to keep the dot until we do...
I had great master doctor buffs, over 2500 health and consitution. I flamed another commando before they got me and I think because they were not also buffed, they quckly incapped and I was able to DB them before my special refreshed. I healed myself everytime I could with decent stimB's and yet the flame dot I recieved was enough to incap me. A flame single did over 4k damage to me and did it faster than I could heal with a 2500 buffer.
Flame single 2 is enough to kill an ATST, at least it was before any of changes I heard regarding ATST recently.
Flamethrower dots land even if the target successfully dodges, counters or blocks the initial attack. We can AoE that dot as well.
In group PvP, no one does more damage than a commando. It is what we are designed and intended for, to the same extent that a good BH does well in solo PvP. When the developers say that our damage and dots are good, they are looking at this role, the group PvP role and not what we do solo and not what we do in PvE. A good commando in a group PvP situation will flame a target(s) and then look for another, because each time we do so, they are effectivelly crippled, dead or require outside medical intervention to keep in the fight, the more we add to that group the better for ourside in the fight.
So much of what appears here deals with how we solo, how we compare to others in solo situations. I think that correctly understanding the role of commando within Sony's desired goals of group PvP is needed to correctly see what our value is and how to properly assist in the many changes in combat ahead of us.
"(1) That the dot, being our only substantial advantage over most other combat classes, be preserved until we get some attention to our other trees. If the flamethrower gets nerfed, and we have no other choice of weapons, we lose most of our combat ability. I think we should fight to keep the dot powerful until we get our other fixes.
Put simply: We should be pushing for fixes before we start proposing ideas about how to nerf the dot."
This we all agree on. 100%. No argument there.
"(2) Our dot should not be the same as other classes' bleeds."
Read lordS's post about the difference between the bleed's time for the first tick, and its damage, to the time the first fire dot tick, and its damage. Its not 'the same as other classes' bleeds' in no way or form. Its much,much,much better.
"After all is said and done, we need to have a more powerful dot."
This is what you and me clash on. Just how more powerful do you think it can get? I can 1-shot any player, regardless of armor... I just have to survive long enough for 3 fire dot ticks to go in, which in itself is very easy to do with decent armor and running around. We can take down 15k+ ham creatures with 100% heat resist (read:no initial damage from flamer) just with a few ticks of the fire dot. If thats not very powerful already I dont know what is. Not even the giant kimo's poison/disease does that much damage so quickly!
"I think the best limiting idea it to make it subject to heat resists in armor (like other dots). However, if it is simply reduced to the damage level of every other classes' dots, we have been done a disservice."
ermm.. no dot, no bleed, no poison, no disease is subject to any resist or armor type.
LordS: I do have a question for you though, what do you think is to be appropiate to differentiate the grenadeers from master title holders? Currently both do the exact same damage via flamsingle2 dot. And the cone attack version hardly, hardly is a noticable perk for a master box.
More gibberish from tac...
I'm done arguing with tac. I hope everyone reading this post reads the crap he is spewing for what it is...
Tac says he can hit for 25,000 damage with his flamethrower in one shot (it's ok to laugh guys).
Tac says that because all commandos can have their weapons sliced, and because the slicedflamethrower does more damage than unsliced weapons from other classes, we are balanced.
Tac says that our ability to use 2 worthless brawler specials, even though every other combat class gets a dozen effective specials of their ownincludingvarious knockdowns and other status ailments, makes us balanced.
Tac says that because he has Teras Kasi resistances, and mobs have problems hitting him, that commando is overpowered and should be nerfed (explain that one to me, will someone).
Tac says that because other classes miss often, and because we NEVER miss (yeah right), that other classes actually do less damage than commandos.
Tac says that instead of fixing the other commandotrees, developers need to spend time and resources changing all flame dot and major damage specials to master commando, thereby gimping all commandos except master commandos.
I hope everyone reading this can see how stupid this is...
I will also comment on the use of warcry and intimidate. They are worthless. As a Master Teras Kasi, you might have good luck with them. As a Master Commando who experimented with them a bunch before I took up pikeman (and still try to use them with varying success as a master pikeman) your suggestion that these specials provide any benefit is wrong.
The main problem with intimidate and warcry is that you have to expend attacks to use them. During that time, you are doing NO damage, and your flame DOT is doing NOTHING. This problem is amplified by the fact that it usually takes 2 to 3 tries to get the effect to stick, and by the fact that you have to be close enough to get hit to use them (I have never got intimitate to stick from outside 15m despite Tac's dribble).
So lets look at a combat scenerio... Lets say intimidate lasts15 seconds, and causes the mob to attack half as much. Warcry does nothing more than stop all attacks for 10 seconds.
You have 3 choices (because using both warcry AND intimidate is redundant)
(1) You could run into special range, flame, and then back out of melee range. You may get hit once or twice while in melee range, but your dot is working on the mob the WHOLE time you are fighting. When the delay wears off, you can either stay out of melee range and shoot, or drop back in to plug another special. You also minimize the amount of ranged fire you take...no delay while waiting for intimidate/warcry to stick, moving around thereafter to reduce chance to hit. You also get your special off MUCH quicker, minimizing the time your opponent has to knockdown or pile on status effects.
(2) You could warcry, and then flame. You will be getting hit while in warcry range, and it may take several applications to work. It lasts 10 seconds. So you get hit 2 to 3 times in application during which your flame dot is doing nothing (no damage at all yet). When you get it to stick, you then flame and back out of range (so you aren;t getting hit anymore). You also are vulnerable to other classes' status effects while you are trying to get warcry to stick.
Congratulations. You just did less dot damage by waiting, you took the same or more damage in the beginning while getting warcry to stickas you avoided by delaying the other mob. And you STILL had to back up out of melee range to avoid attacks, as the warcry wears off before your delay does. You took more damage, and dealt less damage.
(3) You also could intimidate, and then flame. You will be getting hit while inintimidate range, and it may take several applications to work. It lasts15 seconds and makes the mob attack half as much. So you get hit 2 to 3 times in application during which your flame dot is doing nothing (no damage at all yet). When you get it to stick, you then flame and back out of range. Because you backed out of melee range, you aren't getting hit anyway, so the intimidate is doing nothing. As for ranged combants, the ranged mob probably would have shot5-10 times, which is dropped to3-5 by intimidate, you took 2 to 3 extra hits to save 3-5, not to mention that if you have started by moving around instead of intimidating, you would have been harder to hit from the start and probably would have avoided most of those hits anyway. You also are vulnerable to other classes status effects while you are trying to getintimidate to stick.
Congratulations. You just did less dot damage by waiting, you took the about thesame damage while applyingintimidate as you avoided by the reduction in attacks. You tookthe samedamage, and dealt less damage.
Tac's flawed assumption is that warcry and intimidate are useful, because the commando simply stands at the mob's feet after flaming and thereby takes damage. The problem is that any smart commando works to avoid taking damage after flaming, and probably would have avoided that damage anyway. Spending time applying warcry and intimidate wastes time that your flame dot could be working, giving your enemy time to status effect you to death, and cause you to take a bunch of unecessary damage before flaming that might be avoided if you used different tactics.
I have better things to do than argue with a fake commando that is trying to get the class nerfed with nonsensical arguments like "Oh yeah, well I am a commando and can do 25k in damage in one hit.". The fact that out of almost a dozen replies from others I have only gottenone and a halfwho disagree shows that I have support for my arguments regardless of whatever Tac says.
LordSeckmoth wrote:
Today I just got a new FT *my old one broke*
Damage 840-1120
Speed 3.2 *post slice*
That is freaking crazy...why can't I find weapons like that?
Do you think if we got the cs's involved they would let you send me one between servers? 
"This is wrong. Most other dots are based on the damage caused by the initial shot. If the initial shot is 50% resisted, the dot is as well. Consequently all other dots (with the exception of poison...I have no idea how it works) ARE subject to resistances."
In that you are correct. I thought you were saying that the bleeds themselves were subject to resists (after they had been applied). However, you can bleed targets that are 100% heat resist with an FWG5 and they do get bleed damage (ive never exactly measured how much, but damage is done), so perhaps there is a 'minimum' bleed damage for each bleed attack regardless of the damage dealt by the shot that applied it?. Ill look into this tonight and try and see how much.
sigh, this is what i mean about the grenadeer = master commando firepower, just look at what is common knowledge, posted in the SWG Discussions forums:
"Yes, but it ignores one main point. Nobody needs to master commando. All you need is flame 4. THat leaves plenty of points to dabble in TKA or any other melee or ranged elite for defensive bonuses. since you already have master marksman and novice brawler + unarmed 4. That little fact is constantly overlooked by commandos in their arguments. You can base a very sucessful PvP template on commando."