Commando Archive
Thread: O NO THE PATCH!
Ster wrote:
Skeptic666 wrote:
I heard the patch hit today. Does that Wepon swap Delay still happen?
If so how are all the tkm/commandos doing.
when I was on tc2 I kd/dizzy some one and they get up before my FT would get equiped. or I flame II some one and then swap to hand to hand so I take less damage due to our having to be in melee range and you are dead before you even switch out. any one have any comments?
Equipping/un-equipping/transferring items now goes through the Command Queue. Equipping armor and weapons also has a delay associated with it. This is to prevent combat system exploits that were occurring.
I am thoroughly peeved by this. I will now no longer even think about using my FT and strictly use my VKs. The amount of damage that I take with the FT out is astronomical in comparison. The armor... fine. Weapons without further testing and feedback... what were they thinking?
I have fought very hard against this change and feel I've posed a strong Commando arguement against the idea of the delay...The statement above goes straight to my basic arguement...The Delay encourages folks who think of Commando as their primary profession to start considering it a Secondary to be used on in special circumstances...folks will be more inclined to go with other Professions like TKA or Rifleman where they know they can out damage the FT via DPS (Damage Per Second)....
The response from some has been that I am being "overly dramatic" and to try it for awhile to see if it "improves our strategy"...but this has mostly come from other professions who don't have as much reason to switch weapons as we do...they have more then one working tree...
The only Dev response I've gained so far is "We'll take it under advisement and things will change for us with the Combat Balance" basically...
So once again we are forced to "deal with it" in the meantime...wish I had better news on this one, but don't count out your loyal correspondent yet...I'll keep up the fight...
Ster wrote:
The good side about the BH pre-req reduction means that they are willing to make drastic changes to a profession. This helps the BHs so much it is unreal.They can now dabble into another ellite profession and helps them stand toe to toe with a Jedi. Smart move on the DEVs part for sure, if for nothing else than to placate the playerbase. Of course, they didnt have to allocate any resources for it or anything. This was a simple change and would help the PR for a time.
FearlessBob wrote:
I am alternately furious over the weapon swap timer and slightly giddly with the BH class preq changes. Of course, the weapon swap timer really screws with the idea of adding in some BH fireworks to the commando stew. Do the Devs have ANY idea how much damage you can take in 5 seconds in a place like the DWB?
They ask us not to rant, to be constructive. There's only so much that the playerbase can take before it just goes nuclear and melts into a dev-hating, rantfest.
/stalksofftobreaksomething
Yes, Ster, you are right. I AM glad they have had the sense to do something a majority of BHs have been asking for since time immemorial. I am a former MBH from the pre-Inv Fix days, so I know from whence I speak. I was in a fuge of righteous indignation earlier.
What I would like to see is for them to just plain fix commando. Fix grenades so they have atleast a 50m range, and can be used indoors, with decent HAM/speed/acc.
Ditto on the heavy weapons consumables. I'd also like to see them do one of 2 things on consumables: either DRASTICALLY increase the crafted stack size/per resources or severely lower the resource requirements. Having a MWS, I know what a goddam pain it is to make rocket launchers. All consumable Hvy Wps should be AP3 period.
Give the FT at least some AP and give the HAR AP2, bump up the speed and acc a bit.At least ONE of the FT specials needs to be changed from a Cone to an AOE. FT specials need increased range.The want us to be a damage-dealing specialist with relatively low defense, then it's insane to have our specials be 16m.
Take the LP and return it to a heavy weapon, AP2 would be nice. Toss in a couple of commando specific specials, make the mods for it HW mods instead of pistol mods. It fires freakin rockets, already...AP1???There is a hammer that is AP2, yet the rocket-firing, blast damage pistol is only AP1? Pfffft.
And lastly, give us the freakin cert and some mods/specials for the Beam Rifle already, sheesh.
There. Was that so hard? Everything I asked for is already in the game, it just needs some tweaking. No new art has to be done, no new weapon has to hashed-out, debugged, nerfed, un-nerfed, a *known* issue, fixed, patched and finally, in the end-product, semi-crappy.
If they did that, our defense could stay just where they are and I would be happy. We are supposed to be THE damage dealers. Let a melee tank run in to focus the aggro, while we stay back and pound the crap outta stuff. This was SOE's vision for us in the first place, so dammit, they need to get thier horse in gear and do it already. With all the new UBER mobs around, Commando needs to be the class that Brings It. Let a fencer run in and poke it with his little stick, while the MEN stand back and destroy it. There should be NO commando weapon that does not have AT LEAST AP1.
I know that lots of folks want commandos in the front of the fight, not in the rear with gear. Well, there's only 169 skill pts used up, so grab some other skills, dabble, dabble, dabble and step up to the plate.
I'm in a better mood now cause elders were some loot dropping fools tonight. Sad thing, for a die-hard, Day One Commando, happieness these days is an Acklay PowerHammer and Krayt T21.
Skeptic666 wrote:
I heard the patch hit today. Does that Wepon swap Delay still happen?
If so how are all the tkm/commandos doing.
when I was on tc2 I kd/dizzy some one and they get up before my FT would get equiped. or I flame II some one and then swap to hand to hand so I take less damage due to our having to be in melee range and you are dead before you even switch out. any one have any comments?
Have none of you considered that is could well be this sort of behaviour that got this change into the combat balance (and leaked early) in the first place?
If you are using a FT you should not be doing KD/Dizzy, if you want to do them use you TKM skills and don't get the massive initial damage, the DOT and the non-kinetic damage.
It has never even occured to me to switch to a different weapon during the delay between shots to improve my defences, it is unrealistic and while not an exploit clearly the sort of powergaming that causes Nerfs to happen. I agree that commando is underpowered, but that is no excuse for trying to avoid the negatives of your profession in this way and then complaining when you way to bend the rules gets removed.
Oh and before anyone says it, i know that we can be outdamaged by many other professions in terms of DPS and they can have better defences etc, but "wait for the combat balance" where things should improve. (If they don't then feel free to complain that commando isn't good enough)
lisasdarren wrote:
Have none of you considered that is could well be this sort of behaviour that got this change into the combat balance (and leaked early) in the first place?
If you are using a FT you should not be doing KD/Dizzy, if you want to do them use you TKM skills and don't get the massive initial damage, the DOT and the non-kinetic damage.
It has never even occured to me to switch to a different weapon during the delay between shots to improve my defences, it is unrealistic and while not an exploit clearly the sort of powergaming that causes Nerfs to happen. I agree that commando is underpowered, but that is no excuse for trying to avoid the negatives of your profession in this way and then complaining when you way to bend the rules gets removed.
Oh and before anyone says it, i know that we can be outdamaged by many other professions in terms of DPS and they can have better defences etc, but "wait for the combat balance" where things should improve. (If they don't then feel free to complain that commando isn't good enough)
I was seriously hoping that your post was a sarcastic one, intended to humor us. But I seriously doubt that after reading it over and over again, so here are my thoughts.
Whyis it so badto switch weapons and use combination of specials from different weapons? It has been part of the strategy for professions like commando and bounty hunter: the professions that are proficient with not just one weapon, but many different types of weapons. Are you here to tell me that one should not be able to switch weapons and utilize them as needed during combat?
If you are using a FT you should not be doing KD/Dizzy, if you want to do them use you TKM skills and don't get the massive initial damage, the DOT and the non-kinetic damage.
Does that mean that a master bounty hunter shouldn't switch to pistol to land some eye shots, bleed shots, and torso shots after landing a KD/dizzy through carbine fireknockdown? According to your argument, that bounty hunter should not use his pistol skills at all after landing the KD/dizzy with his/her carbine skills. One should always equip one weapon and not change the weapons if the need ever arises, beccause it is bad powergaming.
What makes you think that it is bending the rules to have weapon swapping and using different specials from the multiple weapons at your arsenal?
Do you even know why this change even took place in the first place?
If you don't believe in weapon swaps during combat, then I suggest you to keep your preference. But you should not try to tell everyone that just because you think it is silly, it equals to "bending the rules" and "power gaming." We are given 250 skill points to make our character the way we want in numerous different combination. If we spent the additional skill points to gain access to TKA KD/dizzy moves along with our commando skills, then it is our character's skills granted within our skill point limit. We should be able to access what we have learned, fair and square. What is so rule bending and power gaming about it?
As for the "wait for the combat balance" comment, I am sure everyone is waiting for the combat balance. The development team's answer to most of our questions and concerns has been exactly that. Wait for the combat balance. I don't think we need another non-dev person to tell us the same thing, because we have heard it enough.
However, this is a serious issue impacting not just commandos, but many other professions as well. It is a recent change, and if enough people feel that it is an unjust change, then they should have the right to express their concerns about it.
Jazzminn wrote:
Whyis it so badto switch weapons and use combination of specials from different weapons? It has been part of the strategy for professions like commando and bounty hunter: the professions that are proficient with not just one weapon, but many different types of weapons. Are you here to tell me that one should not be able to switch weapons and utilize them as needed during combat?
No... I don't have a problem with switching weapons to make use of all your abilities, and you can still do just that... what this prevents is moves like switch to carbine, fire kd/dizzy switch to pistol all taking place in about 1 second...
If you are using a FT you should not be doing KD/Dizzy, if you want to do them use you TKM skills and don't get the massive initial damage, the DOT and the non-kinetic damage.
Does that mean that a master bounty hunter shouldn't switch to pistol to land some eye shots, bleed shots, and torso shots after landing a KD/dizzy through carbine fireknockdown? According to your argument, that bounty hunter should not use his pistol skills at all after landing the KD/dizzy with his/her carbine skills. One should always equip one weapon and not change the weapons if the need ever arises, beccause it is bad powergaming.
Okay, i used a bad example there... there is no reason why you can't swap weapons... first 5 shots from your carbine, switch weapons and then next 5 shots with your pistol and this is still perfectly possible, and quite legitimate... however i am sure the devs didn't for see macros switching weapons, firingspecials and switching back within the delay time of the shot itself
And actually my bigger beef was in the next paragraph, avoiding the melee penalty of using a FT by stiching to VKs, if it was intended that you could have those defences active while using you FT they would work automatically without the need to switch weapons.
What makes you think that it is bending the rules to have weapon swapping and using different specials from the multiple weapons at your arsenal?
Do you even know why this change even took place in the first place?
No i don't know, however what i do know is this... The Devs did not put this change in to mess with players or to ruin their fun, it has gone in for balance reasons...
We should be able to access what we have learned, fair and square. What is so rule bending and power gaming about it?
You can still do it, just not so fast as to make swapping weapons more like a FPS than a roleplaying game.
As for the "wait for the combat balance" comment, I am sure everyone is waiting for the combat balance. The development team's answer to most of our questions and concerns has been exactly that. Wait for the combat balance. I don't think we need another non-dev person to tell us the same thing, because we have heard it enough.
I added that in to stop the"commando isn't good enough without doing these thing" posts
However, this is a serious issue impacting not just commandos, but many other professions as well. It is a recent change, and if enough people feel that it is an unjust change, then they should have the right to express their concerns about it.
Just as i have a right to state my opinion on why this change is beneficial to the game as a whole and really only messes with powergamers who need to get every edge rather than contemplating the spirit of the game.
Just a thought, did you ever see Boba Fett switch between his pistols and a carbine and back in 1 second? and sorry to those who think realism spoils the game, i think it enhances the immersion and adds depth...
Boba Fett was effective with his weaponry...he didn't have to switch. Must've been an ELITE class I guess.............
Jazzminn wrote:
lisasdarren wrote:
what this prevents is moves like switch to carbine, fire kd/dizzy switch to pistol all taking place in about 1 second...
And what is wrong about that? They are abilities that we have learned within our skill point limit. 1 second... 5 seconds.. what is the big deal?
Because you get to avoid the negatives associated with that weapon, while gaining the benefits of using it.
Why is it that firing 1 shot and switching weaponsIS NOTok but firing 5 shots and switching weapons IS ok to you?
Its okay to fire one shot then switch, however i don't feel it is right to go through 3 or 4 different weapons in order to get the best aspects of each.
You do realize that TKAs have unarmed toughness that reduces the damage taken while fighting unarmed, right? You do know that a commando holding a flamethrower has to fight at melee range to use his/her specials right? You do know that a commando holding a flamethrower is subject to defense penalty against melee right? Please tell me you do know this at least.
Of course I know this, thats the whole point, if it were intended that you could use the FT to burn things and between burns get the benefits of unarmed toughness and not have the defense penalty against melee then you wouldn't have to quick switch weapons to do so, just by having TKA and commando it would work. As you have to switch weapons to avoid the negatives of using a flamer it clearly wasn't intended. The negatives are not automatically bypassed, so they were not intended to be bypassed.
Like I said, getting the TKA skills would be achieved by having us spend our skill points within the 250 pt limit. If we spent the points to get the skill, we should be able to utilize the skill. Why is this so hard to understand?
Why is it so hard to understand that they built in negatives for using certain weapons, ranged weapons have a penalty against melee, and commandos don't have a toughness that works while using their commando weapons. These negatives are there for a reason and so bypassing them is clearly wrong.
I am sorry, but you are wrong. This change was not put for balance reason. It has derived from the exploits done by a handful few Jedis. There have been plenty of posts and threads about this and why it came to being. If you want more details on this, search the forums and you will find them easily.
So once again, no this wasn't implemented for balance reasons. This was done hastily as the development team's quick fix to the Jedi exploit, totally ignoring the fact that it is going to hurt professions having to use multiple weapons.
You can still do it, just not so fast as to make swapping weapons more like a FPS than a roleplaying game.
Oh my god, you are kidding me right? This is the reason for your argument?
This is only a game. It doesn't matter if it is RPG or FPS... it is all the same. It is just a game. We play the game to have fun. And this swap change doesn't make the game fun. It makes it more difficult and more chorelike. And we don't need that from playing a game. We have enough of that in RL as is.
I don't know your background, but i played tabletop and Live action RPGs before and in both those things like weapon equiping and armour equiping had delays (in live action it was down to how fast you could actually do it) and i never found it detracted from the fun. I am not arguing that we should leave it in just beacause it adds reaslism, i am saying that as it is in for other reasons it increases the realism level and makes the game more immersive to me. And i don't see how waiting 3 seconds to equip a weapon is chorelike.
I added that in to stop the"commando isn't good enough without doing these thing" posts
Commando profession seriously needs help, considering that 3 of the 4 skill trees are basically unused, useless, not practical, and not worth the effort.
You're mis-reading me here, i am well aware that the profession needs work, i added the original line about not using the fact it needs work as a reason because it wouldn't be news to me
But your argument seems too shallow here. It has nothing to do with powergaming or getting every edge. The old way of quick weapon swaps were doable by everyone. Powergaming or getting every edge possible can be talked about when only a minority of players use exploits normally unavailable to majority of people. This is not the case.
That's rot, powergaming is nothing to do with exploiting... powergaming is "bending" the rules as far as you can and min-maxing your abilities to get the maximum benefits for the minimum negatives. This is exactly what switching to VK for defences between FT shots is doing, thus it is powergaming.
If you want to talk about powergamers, then talk to the Jedis. Like I said previously, this change was implemented to stop the few Jedis that were exploiting. It had nothing to do with the people that were playing the regular 32 professions. I suggest you to do your research a little if you are curious as to why this change took place.
TH stated: "The 3 second delay during combat was put in because of the armor and weapon equipping macros. Some of the problems associated with "instant armor" areinstances like theJedi "armor macro" wherebya Jedi could press a single toolbar button that would unequip all of their armor instantly, allow the to then use their force powers and then press that button again and re-equip all of their armor instantly. There are other situations in the game where players were getting unfair heals and weapon advantages because of this."
Jedi was just one example of why this was put in, but as he said there are other reasons.
Okay, Ranged weapon users get hit easier and harder than melee users. But all except Commando can use their weapons outside melee range. The fact that they get to fire from a distance but get pulped if a melee closes in on them is the balance, that's fair, that's intended. The fact that Commando has no option to stick out of melee range to deal damage, but still gets that same disadvantage is something that we round here call broken. Weapon switching for TK defences is the only thing we could use as a temporary fix until the rebalance, but we've had that taken away now.
Message Edited by RazerWolf on 07-01-2004 10:40 PM