Commando Archive
Thread: O NO THE PATCH!
lisasdarren wrote:
No... I don't have a problem with switching weapons to make use of all your abilities, and you can still do just that... what this prevents is moves like switch to carbine, fire kd/dizzy switch to pistol all taking place in about 1 second...
And what is wrong about that? They are abilities that we have learned within our skill point limit. 1 second... 5 seconds.. what is the big deal?
Okay, i used a bad example there... there is no reason why you can't swap weapons... first 5 shots from your carbine, switch weapons and then next 5 shots with your pistol and this is still perfectly possible, and quite legitimate... however i am sure the devs didn't for see macros switching weapons, firingspecials and switching back within the delay time of the shot itself
Macros are given to us to help us play the game easier and more efficiently. If you want to talk aboutpeople abusing the macros, then I will tell you where the real abuse occurs. AFK macroing. But the example that you have given is all done while playing the game, making it easy for the player to do his weapon swapping and alike in the fly. I don't see anything wrong with this. Why is it that firing 1 shot and switching weaponsIS NOTok but firing 5 shots and switching weapons IS ok to you?
And actually my bigger beef was in the next paragraph, avoiding the melee penalty of using a FT by stiching to VKs, if it was intended that you could have those defences active while using you FT they would work automatically without the need to switch weapons.
You do realize that TKAs have unarmed toughness that reduces the damage taken while fighting unarmed, right? You do know that a commando holding a flamethrower has to fight at melee range to use his/her specials right? You do know that a commando holding a flamethrower is subject to defense penalty against melee right? Please tell me you do know this at least.
Like I said, getting the TKA skills would be achieved by having us spend our skill points within the 250 pt limit. If we spent the points to get the skill, we should be able to utilize the skill. Why is this so hard to understand?
No i don't know, however what i do know is this... The Devs did not put this change in to mess with players or to ruin their fun, it has gone in for balance reasons...
I am sorry, but you are wrong. This change was not put for balance reason. It has derived from the exploits done by a handful few Jedis. There have been plenty of posts and threads about this and why it came to being. If you want more details on this, search the forums and you will find them easily.
So once again, no this wasn't implemented for balance reasons. This was done hastily as the development team's quick fix to the Jedi exploit, totally ignoring the fact that it is going to hurt professions having to use multiple weapons.
You can still do it, just not so fast as to make swapping weapons more like a FPS than a roleplaying game.
Oh my god, you are kidding me right? This is the reason for your argument?
This is only a game. It doesn't matter if it is RPG or FPS... it is all the same. It is just a game. We play the game to have fun. And this swap change doesn't make the game fun. It makes it more difficult and more chorelike. And we don't need that from playing a game. We have enough of that in RL as is.
.I added that in to stop the"commando isn't good enough without doing these thing" posts
Commando profession seriously needs help, considering that 3 of the 4 skill trees are basically unused, useless, not practical, and not worth the effort. The launcher pistol doesn't even get any mods or skills, despite being a unique commando heavy weapon. Grenades miss too much, and they can incap the user. Consumable weapons are so hard to make that they are not readily available... and they still miss a lot... and expensive. Heavy acid rifle acts like a flamethrower clone, with slower speed, much less damage, and much more HAM costs. So yes, when the people say that "commando isn't good enough without doing these things," they do have merits and I completely understand.
Just as i have a right to state my opinion on why this change is beneficial to the game as a whole and really only messes with powergamers who need to get every edge rather than contemplating the spirit of the game.
Yes you also do have your right to voice your opinion. I never said you couldn't.
But your argument seems too shallow here. It has nothing to do with powergaming or getting every edge. The old way of quick weapon swaps were doable by everyone. Powergaming or getting every edge possible can be talked about when only a minority of players use exploits normally unavailable to majority of people. This is not the case.
If you want to talk about powergamers, then talk to the Jedis. Like I said previously, this change was implemented to stop the few Jedis that were exploiting. It had nothing to do with the people that were playing the regular 32 professions. I suggest you to do your research a little if you are curious as to why this change took place.
Just a thought, did you ever see Boba Fett switch between his pistols and a carbine and back in 1 second? and sorry to those who think realism spoils the game, i think it enhances the immersion and adds depth...
Like I said, this is just a game. Ifyou want things so realistic, maybeour characters shouldbe required to go to sleep at night, because having to be awake forever in the game world is unrealistic. Maybe everyone should die in one hit because not having to die after being shot at for 5-10 minutes in PvP is unrealistic. Maybe doctor buffs should be removed because such dramatic physical improvement is unrealistic.... I can keep going and list so many others that is unrealistic, but we accept them within the context of the game, because we play the game to have fun.
If you want things to realistic, I suggest you to log off the game and go about your regular daily life routine. That is as realistic as it gets.
We playgames to have fun.Some of us even play the game to escape from reality. If this isyour reason for your belief that this weapon swap change is"beneficial to the game as a whole," then youwill never convince me or many other players. Hence, there will continue to be people voicing their concerns about this issue for a while.
RazerWolf wrote:
I've figured the bit you're missing. You're talking as if Commando is balanced with the other professions in terms of pros and cons of things.
Yes I am, because even though it isn't, thems the rules that was laid down and we shouldn't try to fiddle them just because we are weaker than we should be. All the time you are finding ways round it you are weakening the argument to improve Commando, they can say that you are already managing to be effective.
If we all just played as if our professions were balanced we would probably have avoided many Nerfs and the balance might not be so out of whack, as the devs are now aware that players will try to get every edge they are implementing changes to try and prevent this and rebalance the whole system.
Okay, Ranged weapon users get hit easier and harder than melee users. But all except Commando can use their weapons outside melee range. The fact that they get to fire from a distance but get pulped if a melee closes in on them is the balance, that's fair, that's intended. The fact that Commando has no option to stick out of melee range to deal damage, but still gets that same disadvantage is something that we round here call broken. Weapon switching for TK defences is the only thing we could use as a temporary fix until the rebalance, but we've had that taken away now.
Yep, i agree it is broken and is wrong, so what we need to do is demonstrate how badly it affects us so that it will be changed, and it is being changed in the CB. My POV is that until then we need to live with Commando being below Par, rather than try to find ways round the disadvantages, this is obviously different from many others, but i suspect it is more in line with the developers POV.
Jazzminn wrote:
lisasdarren wrote:
Why is it so hard to understand that they built in negatives for using certain weapons, ranged weapons have a penalty against melee, and commandos don't have a toughness that works while using their commando weapons. These negatives are there for a reason and so bypassing them is clearly wrong.
Yes, but an unfair one, don't you think? A ranged profession having to learn unarmed under brawler with no mods or specials related to unarmed fighting. A ranged profession that has to fight at melee range to use his/her specials, while the other ranged profession has the luxury of kiting and not having to be in melee range.
Yes I do agree it is unfair, i agree with all those points in that last paragraph, however my POV is that we should show the Devs how badly it hurts commando, so that it might get fixed, rather than finding a way around it that i, personally, find rather dubious.
You can talk about the negatives of holding a ranged weapon to a person who hasn't spent the skill points to learn TKA and obtain unarmed toughness. But if a player has spent his/her precious skill points within the limited 250, then by all means he/she should be able to take advantage of it. If you say it is wrong, then what's the point of dabbling in the first place? You might as well make this game like EQ and DAoC, remove the skill based system, and go with the pure class system.
There are some skills that stack between classes and some that don't, the purpose of dabbling is to gain a mixture of skills (adding novice medic for example), to gain extras of the skills that do stack (like the defences) and to have options as to different fighting styles, or aspects of gameplay.
This game is far from those live action RPGs and tabletops. It can't be comparable.
They are all roleplaying games, of course they are comparable, the problem is that while computer RPGs have brought roleplaying to the masses many of the people playing them wouldn't understand what roleplaying is if you offered them a dictionary to look it up in.
to stop the exploits abused by certain individuals using DoT weapons. And here you are, telling me that powergaming has nothing to do with exploits. Then why are you making such a big fuss about weapon switching? It is clear then that this change wasn't made because it was viewed as "powergaming."
Okay, so the Devs didn't change it for that reason, however these are reasons that I think it is a good thing, and should stay. If it stays or if the Devs remove it I will still be able to play, but its one less reason for me to compete against other players.
If you want to talk about "powergaming," talk about merchants and crafters who do cross server lots or run different accounts to get as many lots as they can to operate their dozens of stationary extractors and factories.
If you check out the Architect and Merchant boards you will see me arguing against cross server lot swaps and other things.
I am sure you and I can agree on one thing however. Until the development team decides to remove this weapon switch delay, we will have to discuss about new tactics and how this new system works in live.
I am sure we will keep on discussing it and i enjoy this sort of discussion, i don't expect that you will come over to my POV. My problem is the way that some posters respond with comments like "change it back i don't like it" or "this is aweful it messes up my 'uber' template" and that bugs me, this is a roleplaying game and should be about developing a character, not about how best to spend you skill points to be the best in combat. I am hoping that the combat balance will fix things so that picking exactly the right skills becomes secondary to thoughtful play and I can RP a commando smuggler and still be competitive in PVE and PVP.
This last comment is not aimed at anyone in this thread in particular, but to a certain group... those who use their online handles as names, those who spend all their game time trying to figure out how to build and play their 'template' to get every advantage over others, those who refer to themselves as 'l33t doods', those who tell someone they're a 'noob' and they were 'pwned' and then proceed to bad mouth them because they got lost a fight... You know the type, I know the type... These are the people that bug me...
Here is the message: This game is a MMORPG and RPG stands for roleplaying game, if you are not interested in roleplaying then go and play a online FPS or some other game and stop ruining the Star Wars enviroment for the rest of us who want to really be a part of the Star Wars universe.
However to those offering sensible opinions and who actually want to be a character within the Star Wars universe, i respect your opinions and understand your anger at a change that has affected how you play thegame, but i just don't agree that it is a bad thing and think yuo could learn to live with it.