Commando Archive
Thread: Crazy Idea that I need Input on...
StarNick
Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:51 pm
#14
The Ranged tanker...crazy... 
Only problem i see to this if they (the devs) continue having our hvy weapons be like Rifles at melee range...and this would require a major major overhaul, more than possibly a commando revamp described by many players here....
a TKM is a tanker....92 Sp.....a ranged profession generally is for offense (though meleers outdamage alot of the ranged profs....but are generally limited to a narrow dmg type!)....also 92 sp....we're a hybrid....I dont think we should be fully offensive (as we are now...even though we arent that great compared to others) nor should we be fully a tanker class.
So yes....a very very crazy thought, as it negates our 77 SP spent on Marksman
A Combat Medic is a hybrid because it can poison other combatents while healing allies...
A Smuggler is a hybrid because it doesnt fight fairly (the UA skills support this)....
A BH is a hybrid because it is (suppused to be) the ultimate ranged profession...but iw also hunts down marks for a living (hence explore...exploring the land for your targets!)...
A Squad Leader is a hybrid because it uses support tactics as well as scout tactics to navigate the land and lead its squad to battle...
A Commando....we're a hybrid....we're pure combat and take the most combat skills than ANY profession....what does that make us? Solely a tanker...and solely a support (offense wise) role to me does not live up to what it takes to be a commando....
jRaylianholy
Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:00 pm
#15
we can do this already wel lwe can tank that is if you wanna pick up tkm and we already have taunt but i dont think any one uses it any more for pve i use it alot to keep krayts and other high lvl mobs of myranged friends when we go hunting it keeps the bugger confussed too going back and forth between players quiet entertaining.
Feixeno356
Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:56 pm
#16
I guess just to get a word in: I dislike it ( though I am a tanker in COH. heh. )
just push on fixing what we need fixed before changing roles Garvin
well just my idea upon the whole thing.
just push on fixing what we need fixed before changing roles Garvin
well just my idea upon the whole thing.
Bloodfin
Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:19 pm
#17
I think I have to agree with most of the other people on this one. I see commando being the heavy-hitters...a profession with very high damage, but a little lower defenses. I think we should leavethe tanking job to the melees.
BravenIrish
Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:47 pm
#18
Ah yes! I've been from the versitility school of thought for a loooong time now. Especially reciently, bue to the delay of combat revamp, I've had lots of time to re-think and revise my old vision of what a commado should be...
Instead of looking at our current problems, issues, and other professions, I tried to think of a good analogy that describes where we are and where I feel we should be. Analyze that and maybe the solution could present itself...
Star Wars Galaxies: Pick-Up Game of Football (where we should be...)
Let's pretend, for a moment, all the combat professions gathered together in the SOE parking lot one night and decided to play a quick scrimmage.
Most are arguing who the captains should be...untill the two branches of Jedi show up (late from thier own competition). The decision was easy.Each Jedi shall captain each team. Knowing the best, most fair way to choose members is to take turns picking from the group. How would they pick? How should they pick?
This is not an easy question in many reguards...but to me it's clear as day!
After the coin flip, the winning Jedi thinks a moment and after some hesitation...picks the Commando. No sooner the Commando starts his proud jog up to his new team Captain, the Bounty Hunter let's out a sarcastic laugh and automatically walks to the other team Captian. The Commando and his team Captian watch confidently as the opposing teams leader waves the Bounty Hunter on. He was obviousely the second choise...and quite possibly a better pick depending on how things unfold.
The next several minutes, each team picks the profession which complements the one picked before them untill there is a good mix of ranged and mele professions. Which team wins you ask? It was close...but the Team that picked the Combat Medic prevailed even though they were vs the Squad Leaders team.
OK, now I'm sure most of you are asking yourselves, "What the hell is this dude talking about and what does this have to do with Commando being a Tank or not?!". Suprisingly..it does.
Why would Commando and Bounty Hunter be the first picked in this Post Combat Revamp Fantasy Football Fiasco? Easy! They would be the first because they have the most Versitiliy! Everyone wants the guy who can Block, Catch, Pass, Run, Tackle, and Score. If a Key Role goes down...this guy can fill that role almost as effectively. Thats what a Commando should be.
A Commando shouldn't be the best "player" at 64m. That's a Rifleman, but Commando is pretty good and if the Rifleman goes down...the Commando can fill in and reduce the sting a bit. Same with being a Tank. If your TKA falls...you have no other mele...who do you call? Who do you assume will run up and try to fill that role? The Commando! He won't be as good...but he can be good enough to save the rest of the group.
That's how I see Commando. And NO! Not "Jack of all trades Master of None". I see it as: "Master Commando- Jack of all Ranges, Master of None; Master Commando+Master Elite- Jack of all Ranges, MASTER of ONE!!!". I think Master Commando should be Secondbest at Every range.
That's what I've been talking about for so long. A Master Commando should be effective at every range. Not UBER! Master Commando with Master Elite should be the best at that range. POTENTIAL!
Limiting Commando to be a great TANK will always lean toward Commando/TKA, to be a better TANK. Everyone will expect Commandos to play a Tank role. But Commando, I feel, has not been trained to only tank...or only be ranged for that matter. Commando is trained to deal with many situations and the only possible way to acieve this effectively is versitility! Which, as of now, we have very little. Leading into this:
Star Wars Galaxies: Pick-Up Game of Football (where we are now...)
Let's pretend, for a moment, all the combat professions gathered together in the SOE parking lot one night and decided to play a quick scrimmage.
Most are arguing who the captains should be...untill the two branches of Jedi show up (late from thier own competition). The decision was easy.Each Jedi shall captain each team. Knowing the best, most fair way to choose members is to take turns picking from the group. How would they pick? How should they pick?
Think to yourself who you would pick first...and where would WE as Commandos fall within those picks. Ask yourself why...then ask yourself, "Would Commandobeing a better Tank orbeing MORE Versitleplace us closer into the number one slot"....
Slainte'
*P.S. How can we still be the BIG BOOMERS, Be Versitile, and BALANCED? Got it covered...will post some other time on that.
Message Edited by BravenIrish on 08-25-2004 07:08 PM
SinjenRandall
Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:04 pm
#19
BravenIrish wrote:
Star Wars Galaxies: Pick-Up Game of Football (where we should be...)
Think to yourself who you would pick first...and where would WE as Commandos fall within those picks. Ask yourself why...then ask yourself, "Would Commandobeing a Tank orbeing Versitleplace us closer into the number one slot"....
Slainte'
Wow, that's a very interesting post, BravenIrish. And it is a pretty good analogy.
It got me to thinking about Chess, too. All of the pieces on the boards are roughly equivalent in that they all have the potential to "kill" another piece on the board. What makes one piece better than another in some cases? Versatility. The Queen is probably the most dangerous, since it is the most versatile, but in good hands other pieces can be just as devastating.
With our expenditure of skill points, we could be rooks and Bounty Hunters Bishops, and Combat medics perhaps Knights. Jedi could be queens (lol), and all those pawns represent single elite masteries.
Hmmm.....
RazerWolf
Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:32 pm
#20
Braven's central block of text there is saying perfectly what I was trying to. I can't really think of any more appropriate analogies...
SinjenRandall
Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:40 pm
#21
You had a great post too, Razorwolf. It's just that Braven's post gave me a great mental image of the whole thing. Something just clicked in my head and went, "yeah!".
*****
StarNick
Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:49 pm
#22
I like Braven's analogy alot too...
I always viewed Hvy Weapons to be a culmination of ALL ranged disciplines...hence why we take Master Marksman to even become one...nearly every role we have some combat in (according to our pre-reqs) but quite ironically, we are lousy at nearly all of them...
The devs need to give us the tools to be second to the masters for this to happen....which I really doubt heh...
Nevertheless....when your army is in trouble...who do you send in? The Commando...
You can see this from other games such as C&C Renegade...you can see it from history such as during the Battle of the Bulge when the German Army swept over the Allies and Eisenhower sent in the 101st screaming eagles (the paratroopers were the elite of the elite....essentially what we would regard as commandos today, but of course not as highly refined as the special forces which commandos officially fall under).
This is why many want us to be frontline soldiers...we have so much combat expertise, that if a man falls down we can take his gun and continue fighting and win the battle...
We should see thecombination of all 3 ranged disciplines in our heavy weapons added with lack of melee penalities for our weapons, melee defenses and specials on those weapons....
Our Consumeables are reminscient of the T-21...the hvy hitting....our LP represents Pistoleers...our much wanted assault carbine is the crowd control and assault of carbineer. Our wanted defenses are of melee, and lastly our special hvy weapons are not only unique to us, but combine all the disciplines together...the hard hitting of Rifles/TKA....the DoT of assault tactics (carbineer....eh its a bit stretching it, but the DoT sticks...and some of carbineer's specials involve state changes...which would properly be represented by our gernades if they were made to what we want!)...and the health targeting of pistoleer.
Adding all of these wouldn't make commando overpowered or uber, but give us the ability to adapt to changing combat situations....
BravenIrish
Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:10 pm
#23
Here's a tidbit...
Master Marksman should get a "new" skill mod which carries through to us and BH. Commando shoud get "new" exclusive skill mod (Maybe only Master) which adds +1 AP to any weapon...
I HATE this term..but think out of the box...LOL!
I think there is a VERY Viable way for a Commando to use his dusty old Master Marksman weapons(Which we use togrind Combat EXP) more effectively and almost in compairison as our Elite counterparts....think about it!
Slainte'
Raptor2k1
Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:30 pm
#24
Personally, I'd rather us not end up like the tanker. We have plenty of tank classes already. In CoH terms I'd rather see us end up as a combination of Blaster and Defender.
In SWG terms this translates into Powerful Offense and versatility. Because of the UA4 pre-req, I think we should be able to tank better than any other ranged class, but only as a last resort. Ie. if a fencer comes after you, you stand a better chance of survival than any other ranged class (whether it's because you kick him in groin or bash him over the head with your weapon.)
Message Edited by Raptor2k1 on 08-25-2004 07:35 PM
nbd9k
Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:40 pm
#25
/begin: my2creds
OK, FEEDBACK!! right now, even with relatively fast weapons, we are still slow on the draw and even slower on the refire rate. this is one of our big system problems, since it couples nicely with the fact that the commando tree on its own has very little melee defence. Basically, we have one chance to hit. if we dont connect and do some SERIOUS damage, we are on our backs faster than an essex girl.
right now, we beg and beg for them to tweak our weapons and speed up our skill trees, but when you think about it, maybe it isnt all that necessary. ok, maybe our shots should actually hit a bit more often, but lets survey here. how many people out there have successfully fired a rocket launcher in less than 10 seconds IRL? (shoutout tomarine corps infantry, hoo-rah) I can honestly say that it took me AT LEAST 30 seconds to aim and hit with an AT4. So yah, maybe a few of our weapons should be a little slow.
nbd9k
Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:47 pm
#26
-continued
D'oh, wrong button. anyway, maybe our problem isnt faster weapons etc. all we really need to do is survive that blistering onslaught long enough to get another shot in. in PVP and most PVE thats all it would really take.
Now, dont get the wrong idea! im not saying make the weapons any weaker or somethnig stoooooopid like that. really its fitting, if they made us tanks, we wouldnt have to fire any faster, and our aim is bad enough to make us relatively equal in combat. so bring on the defensive perks!
This isnt going downhill.... its just moving a little sideways.
/end: my2creds
-harv